Spoilers How do you like it that Picard is an android now?

[fireproof78]

Unless they retcon it....that's not what the dialogue said. Also it's a gray area with the soul on Star Trek. People bring up the whole Sargon thing or the Janet lester thing. But I'm more inclined to think the personalities changed and part of what made them them is still in the brain.

But, we had it with Chakotay too, being a disembodied spirit and able to navigate around the ship...somewhat.

The dialog says "image." It could be as simple as creating the framework for the mind to go in to, or transfer to.

Star Trek is pretty fuzzy on this point. The only reason to reject it whole cloth is out of personal animus. Which I get. I do that too.

 

[Sci]

"Before your brain functions ceased, Dr. Soong and jerahti with help from Soji were able to Scan, map and transfer a complete neural image of your brain substrates"...

Sounds like a copy to me...

Sounds to me like it could just as easily mean they transferred the consciousness itself. Why would they need to transfer an "image" if the "image" is just a copy? Surely they could just assemble the copy directly in the synthetic brain instead of transferring it?

 

[fireproof78]

Sounds to me like it could just as easily mean they transferred the consciousness itself. Why would they need to transfer an "image" if the "image" is just a copy? Surely they could just assemble the copy directly in the synthetic brain instead of transferring it?

Better put.

 

[Ghel]

His consciousness was not transferred. It was mapped and scanned according to dialogue. It's a copy. Picard is dead. Also people are conscious during transport. That has DEFINITELY been seen in trek. Why people ignore that bit of info is beyond me...

This is only partially true. While we see one instance where Reg Barclay is conscious through most of the transport, it is entirely possible he is only conscious at the beginning and end of the transport. Somehow, I doubt the completely disassembled Barclay existing only as a pattern in a transporter buffer is aware of being only data in a buffer. Even if he is reassembled from the same material at the end, he is still a scanned copy, rebuilt to the original specifications.
Regarding Picard being simply a golem, I tend to think Star Trek still uses the "Closest Continuer" theory of identity (much like Altered Carbon). Essentially, synth Picard is the closest continuation of the Picard identity over time, just as transported Picard is the closest continuation of the Picard identity from prior to transport. It can certainly be argued that any character dies the minute they are disassembled by a transporter. Similarly Will and Thomas Riker both have the same mass as pre-transport, indicating that the transporter pulled material from somewhere outside of the original Riker material, but we are still supposed to believe that they are both real people and a continuation of an earlier William. Did one version of Picard die at the end of season one? Most likely. Does that mean synth Picard who has the memories, emotions, and identity of the meat Picard is somehow "less than" Picard? I don't think so.

 

[JWPlatt]

Somehow, I doubt the completely disassembled Barclay existing only as a pattern in a transporter buffer is aware of being only data in a buffer.

Yes. Scotty was unaware of time passage.

SCOTT: The Enterprise? I should have known. I bet Jim Kirk himself hauled the old girl out of mothballs to come looking for me. Captain Montgomery Scott. Tell me, how long have I been missing?

 

[Ghel]

Another thought. If we assume Picard in a synth body is only a golem or a copy, then Star Trek III Spock is even more problematic. Spock places his Katra into McCoy *before* going into the radiation chamber. Yet, while in the chamber Spock is still himself and is even able to give the final "I have been and always shall be your friend" speech. Spock's body is irradiated and essentially melted from the inside out and that version of Spock dies.
When first found on the genesis planet, Spock is a small child with far less mass than the adult Spock indicating that once he ages with the planet and becomes and adult again, he is at least in part if not entirely made up of new material. His mind is also essentially a blank slate. This isn't because his katra is gone, since his mind existed in the radiation chamber, but because this is essentially a new body regenerated from the genesis planet.
The crew goes to Vulcan where Spock's katra *not including the last half hour or so of his life* would be transferred into the new body. If Spock's consciousness and memories, duplicated a substantial time before his death as shown directly on screen, can be placed into a new body and called the same character, I don't see how Picard's consciousness--which may or may not have been copied or directly transferred depending upon how you interpret the dialogue-- at the exact time of his death can be seen as something less than Picard.

 

[Dar70]

Another thought. If we assume Picard in a synth body is only a golem or a copy, then Star Trek III Spock is even more problematic. Spock places his Katra into McCoy *before* going into the radiation chamber. Yet, while in the chamber Spock is still himself and is even able to give the final "I have been and always shall be your friend" speech. Spock's body is irradiated and essentially melted from the inside out and that version of Spock dies.
When first found on the genesis planet, Spock is a small child with far less mass than the adult Spock indicating that once he ages with the planet and becomes and adult again, he is at least in part if not entirely made up of new material. His mind is also essentially a blank slate. This isn't because his katra is gone, since his mind existed in the radiation chamber, but because this is essentially a new body regenerated from the genesis planet.
The crew goes to Vulcan where Spock's katra *not including the last half hour or so of his life* would be transferred into the new body. If Spock's consciousness and memories, duplicated a substantial time before his death as shown directly on screen, can be placed into a new body and called the same character, I don't see how Picard's consciousness--which may or may not have been copied or directly transferred depending upon how you interpret the dialogue-- at the exact time of his death can be seen as something less than Picard.

The difference is, there is still some of Spocks genetic material left. Picard there is zero. Spocks de-aged body would still have some of his original genetic material, espcially in his brain....

 

[EnderAKH]

Whether it is the ONE TRUE PICARD or not is a distinction without a difference. He is a fictional character being written by writers. They will make him have the same choices, the same feelings, the same memories, the same dialog,, the same motivations whether or not he is in a fully human body or a synthezoid body. So, from a character standpoint as long as the writers consider him the same character, he will behave as the same character, so will be the same character. It's not as if you are going to be able to point at the screen and say "AHA! Picard would have never done that if he were still a human!" Because, under these writers, he would. So it is a moot point to my mind.

 

[NCC-73515]

TNG was every bit as big a visual reboot (maybe even larger) than the changes made in Season 1 discovery, which in many ways are almost 1:1 with the above list. I absolutely thing that was Fuller's original intent, even though it was canon breaking. It best explains the weird Discovery uniforms and new division colors.

a sequel set decades later is obviously not a reboot

Yes. Scotty was unaware of time passage.

imagine being aware for what was it - 70 years? only seeing fuzzy glowy stuff, not being able to do anything at all...

When first found on the genesis planet, Spock is a small child with far less mass than the adult Spock indicating that once he ages with the planet and becomes and adult again, he is at least in part if not entirely made up of new material.

How did he even develop? Was he an embryo and fetus in the coffin, with the planet as his placenta? XD

The difference is, there is still some of Spocks genetic material left. Picard there is zero. Spocks de-aged body would still have some of his original genetic material, espcially in his brain....

We actually don't know any of that.

 

[JWPlatt]

Whether it is the ONE TRUE PICARD or not is a distinction without a difference. He is a fictional character being written by writers. They will make him have the same choices, the same feelings, the same memories, the same dialog,, the same motivations whether or not he is in a fully human body or a synthezoid body. So, from a character standpoint as long as the writers consider him the same character, he will behave as the same character, so will be the same character. It's not as if you are going to be able to point at the screen and say "AHA! Picard would have never done that if he were still a human!" Because, under these writers, he would. So it is a moot point to my mind.

Beware: Canon is everything to many, and fickle writers, like the way governmental administrations cynically sway to and fro with the faithless political winds, are anathema to that. So much for the drama over Disney's decanonization of the EU - meaningless under the guise of quacking like a Picard so it's the same Picard.

 

[fireproof78]

The difference is, there is still some of Spocks genetic material left. Picard there is zero. Spocks de-aged body would still have some of his original genetic material, espcially in his brain....

So, when Spock was removed from his body and living in McCoy's mind, as well as living in a sphere on Sargon's planet he was dead? If so, then is he no longer the real Spock?

 

[Dar70]

So, when Spock was removed from his body and living in McCoy's mind, as well as living in a sphere on Sargon's planet he was dead? If so, then is he no longer the real Spock?

His Katra apparently wasnt his whole mind if he could talk to kirk after putting it.in McCoy and I'm assuming the same thing with the Sargon episode. We dont know for sure how much of their essence was in those orbs.

At any rate until the writers say otherwise I'm sticking with that Picard us basically a clone of his original self. Now if his brain Was implanted in the golem i would have had zero issue with him being the real Picard. Thats the way they should have played it.

 

[Dar70]

We actually don't know any of that.

Just like we dont know any of the other theories people keep throwing around. Like transporters make new people everytime they are transported theory. I keep hearing that one over and over....lol

 

[fireproof78]

His Katra apparently wasnt his whole mind if he could talk to kirk after putting it.in McCoy and I'm assuming the same thing with the Sargon episode. We dont know for sure how much of their essence was in those orbs.

But, that's not how Sargon treated it.

 

[JWPlatt]

Just like we dont know any of the other theories people keep throwing around. Like transporters make new people everytime they are transported theory. I keep hearing that one over and over....lol

Hey now.

 

[dupersuper]

To add: If he was the same Picard, why the big grief when he died when the characters knew they were going to bring him back moments later?

Because they didn't know that that was happening until some one thought to do it?

Escapism, if it is to have any value, must have a sense of resolution and accomplishment. Otherwise, it would be like a fairly tale, happily ever after, with no meaningful impact upon the the world.

Yet fairy tales have been effective escapism for a very long time...

 

[fireproof78]

Yet fairy tales have been effective escapism for a very long time...

Then it would be nice if Star Trek was not treated as aspirational or the human ideal.

 

[dupersuper]

Then it would be nice if Star Trek was not treated as aspirational or the human ideal.

Why?

 

[fireproof78]

Why?

Because humans are not a fairy tale story. Star Trek isn't treated like a fairy tale. It's treated like a prescription on humanity, to evolve and to become better. Except, all the becoming better is left off screen and everything is all neatly wrapped up. I enjoy escapism-don't tell me that the fictional characters are to be my inspiration for handling real life problems.

 

[Ghel]

His Katra apparently wasnt his whole mind if he could talk to kirk after putting it.in McCoy and I'm assuming the same thing with the Sargon episode. We dont know for sure how much of their essence was in those orbs.

At any rate until the writers say otherwise I'm sticking with that Picard us basically a clone of his original self. Now if his brain Was implanted in the golem i would have had zero issue with him being the real Picard. Thats the way they should have played it.

But this would actually make it worse. The film establishes whatever element of Spock was left in his physical brain was essentially wiped out by the genesis planet and his new body/mind is a blank slate.
In Voyage Home, it is also established that even upon receiving his Katra, Spock has to be "retrained" in the Vulcan way.
These would tend to establish that if the person of Spock wasn't in his Katra, then that aspect of Spock is indeed dead. So, not only is the post Star Trek III Spock a copy of the original, but he is a *partial* copy at that!