How can these episodes (from TNG, DS9, and ENT) be canon any longer?

Discussion in 'General Trek Discussion' started by The Rock, May 31, 2019.

  1. Ricky Spanish

    Ricky Spanish History’s Greatest Monster Premium Member

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    There is no Star Trek for the sake of Star Trek. Hollywood is a business and shows have to make money. The original was a losing proposition for NBC, which was why it was cancelled after three seasons and sat on the cancellation bubble for the entirety of its network run.

    I have my issues with Discovery, and consider it an alternate timeline. But if I'm sitting atop of CBS and my job depends on the show being watched and being profitable, I'd have probably made many of the same decisions that they have up to this point.

    It is easy to sit on this side and shit on what they've done up to this point, I know I have on more than one occasion, but at some point the reality of the situation sets in. Doesn't mean one can't be critical, but do take a moment to evaluate the overall situation.
     
  2. Dry Bones 37

    Dry Bones 37 Admiral Admiral

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    This!
     
  3. Boris Skrbic

    Boris Skrbic Captain Captain

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    You’re assuming I haven’t, or I would soften my criticism on the theory that we’re all in the same boat and at least we have Star Trek on the air again. However, as a fan I don’t need to identify or sympathize with CBS: I just watch the final product, so all I’m interested in is what kind of official Star Trek is being released, even if the groundbreaking kind can only be obtained by hiring expensive showrunners or selling the property to another company. I could even live with no new Star Trek as opposed to more of this derivative kind, any of which would be unthinkable from the POV of a CBS executive.

    The only limits to such requests would be those of television production in 2019, but if something can be made, we should ask for it, and if it doesn’t happen, there is always other TV. I’ll still watch DSC for lore, just not rewatch it several times, and despite having a sense of why it is the way it is, my reaction will still be “Well, too bad, but it should be better; I can’t change it but I can play something else.”
     
  4. Ricky Spanish

    Ricky Spanish History’s Greatest Monster Premium Member

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    Not the CBS corporation, but the people working on the show. Even Alex Kurtzman has a boss. They don't hand him $140 million dollars for a season and tell him to go hog-wild with whatever he and his writers want to do. He and his writers and production team are stuck between the desires of CBS and likely Netflix, and the dozens of different demands of fandom. No matter what course they choose, they will be pissing off fans of one stripe or another.

    I think overall, the writing and design of Discovery are weak. At the same time, I can understand that Kurtzman and company are working the definition of the no-win scenario. My voice is one of many conflicting voices.
     
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  5. Boris Skrbic

    Boris Skrbic Captain Captain

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    You said “sitting atop of CBS”, but even if we go down to Kurtzman, there are in fact showrunners who simply wouldn’t do Star Trek without full creative control and reasonable notes from the studio. As for listening to the fans, that just isn’t done: you listen to yourself and your writers, follow it through step by step and hope that many other people agree, otherwise the show will just be pulled in all directions.

    If we look at the showrunners CBS has been hiring and firing, there is a distinct sense of trying to move away from Berman but being very careful and therefore making do with whoever you can get, realizing it’s not working then hiring someone else, as opposed to just saying, “Well, RDM knows Star Trek and then he made nBSG, why not simply hire him and see what he’d do alone?” And if it’s not that simple, for financial or other reasons, fine, but as a fan I can ask for it because there are other shows where it works; it’s not impossible.
     
  6. Dry Bones 37

    Dry Bones 37 Admiral Admiral

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    Why should it be better? Should implies a standard as well as the fact that the CBS powers are producing a substandard product and know it. That seems like a rather ridiculous assertion.

    Secondarily, at least for me, if I go in to a production going "Whelp, that could have been better" then I'm not engaged with it at all. I'm judging from the word go, without any appreciation of the work done. And I'm not just talking hypothetical. I did it (and probably still do) with the Star Wars Prequel Trilogy. But, you know what? I have the utmost respect for Lucas doing the films he wanted to do. So, I can enjoy the PT as they are.

    It's a weird place, I know.

    By the way, a reasonable note from the production team will never be "Spend more money!" Again, it's not our money to demand that they spend more of.
     
  7. Boris Skrbic

    Boris Skrbic Captain Captain

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    But it’s so easy to know it. Is it Game of Thrones or Mad Men or Breaking Bad? No, so it could be better, done.

    As noted, fans shouldn’t engage with CBS because CBS shouldn’t listen to fans. It’s not a show by committee or the fans’ money to spend, but fans can want what they want and need not accept the status quo if they can watch something else. What’s the point of overanalyzing the work done? Most fans are not critics or showrunners themselves, and the actual showrunners shouldn’t (and legally cannot) listen to suggestions.

    The SW prequels fall under the category “do something original, and maybe you’ll fail, which is OK”. I mentioned earlier that it is always a possibility if someone just isn’t that good (in areas). Was anyone telling Lucas what to do? No. Was Lucas listening to the fans? No. Was I disappointed by TFA far more than with the prequels? Yes, because unlike Lucas, Abrams was riffing on the original, even if the former could’ve used some help with the scripts, filmed above HD and relied on fewer greenscreens.
     
  8. Ricky Spanish

    Ricky Spanish History’s Greatest Monster Premium Member

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    I have my issues with the show, but I don't think that they (Kurtzman and CBS) are making a subpar show just to piss me off. It is silly for any fan to think they are intentionally producing subpar products.

    I don't want Star Trek to be any of those things, if I want to watch those shows, I can just go watch them. I don't want Trek to be Battlestar Galactica, La Femme Nakita or The Handmaid's Tale. I appreciate when Trek is Trek (generally optimistic sci-fi action adventure), for good or ill. Just like I'm underwhelmed by the idea of a Section 31 series. Spy shows with morally dubious characters are plentiful, and I don't think that they are a fit for what Trek is.
     
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  9. Dry Bones 37

    Dry Bones 37 Admiral Admiral

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    Star Trek is none of those things. False equivalency.
     
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  10. Boris Skrbic

    Boris Skrbic Captain Captain

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    Intention is irrelevant: whether someone is phoning it in while someone else is doing their best under the circumstances, I as a fan am interested in the final product, and even showrunners can say (and often do) if they’re happy with the way a show is turning out.

    It’s about the approach, not subject matter. Hire a competent showrunner and give them a show to build from beginning to end, without second-guessing the choice every season or dealing with inevitable consequences of ill-considered decisions.
     
  11. Boris Skrbic

    Boris Skrbic Captain Captain

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    Star Trek can build up word of mouth, coverage in mainstream media and accumulate awards same as any other show.
     
  12. Dry Bones 37

    Dry Bones 37 Admiral Admiral

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    Yes it can. It doesn't do that by copying other shows. It does it by putting confidence in their showrunners, which Star Trek is still in the process of doing with Kurtzman. It's a false equivalence because what CBS set out to do originally with Discovery changed multiple times from Fuller and forward.

    So, let's not pretend that it's the exact same situation or that throwing more money at it would have solved the problems. That is a highly reductionist point of view of production.
     
  13. Boris Skrbic

    Boris Skrbic Captain Captain

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    Nobody said anything about copying other shows, only about becoming highly competitive, and one aspect thereof is not making U-turns and changing showrunners, which DSC has done twice so far. Money won’t solve all problems, but it’s a part of getting someone with a proven track record.
     
  14. Dry Bones 37

    Dry Bones 37 Admiral Admiral

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    That's why they hired Kurtzman. They are doing what you want them to do. It just took them time to do it. Like many businesses do.
     
  15. gazomg

    gazomg Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    you are coming at this in the wroing way.

    TOS, TNG, DS9 Ent are all canon and discovery is the one fucking up
     
  16. Ricky Spanish

    Ricky Spanish History’s Greatest Monster Premium Member

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    Canon is the live action body of work. They are all canon, though the only ones who are obligated to follow it are folks working on tie-in material.
     
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  17. gazomg

    gazomg Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I get that, but to for anyone to think discovery trumps tos, ds9, tng etc is lunacy
     
  18. Ricky Spanish

    Ricky Spanish History’s Greatest Monster Premium Member

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    Newest production usually trumps what has come before.
     
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  19. Tuskin38

    Tuskin38 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Discovery is barely fucking it up
     
  20. Dry Bones 37

    Dry Bones 37 Admiral Admiral

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    It's all canon. I may not agree with everything Discovery is doing but its as canon as the rest of them.

    How one choses to engage with it (alternate timeline, reboot, ignore it, etc) is up to them.