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How big was the Enterprise?

I'll need to see documentation of this because the additional windows and the doubling in crew compliment in dialogue certainly imply the size wasn't increased until later.

Per Shaw, again, the crew doubling was likely a result of the already doubled ship being thought awfully empty. I'd say this is especially true if the carrier comparison pic had been made. (The same sort of mathematics would impact the Galaxy years later as the doubled length led to a doubled complement on a ship with over 27 times the volume.)


 
Per Shaw, again, the crew doubling was likely a result of the already doubled ship being thought awfully empty. I'd say this is especially true if the carrier comparison pic had been made. (The same sort of mathematics would impact the Galaxy years later as the doubled length led to a doubled complement on a ship with over 27 times the volume.)



ah, very interesting. I probably read that thread at the time but had forgotten in the ten years since.
 
And I have no problem upscaling the B, C, D, E, F and G to make them proportionately larger than the 1701 and 1701-A. If the 1701-D is closer to 900 meters now, so be it. The TNG Enterprise looked absolutely enormous, anyways, and when the saucer section was on Veridian III in GEN it looked way bigger than a 642-meter-long vessel.
 
The 'real' question is; just how effective are PR rooms that Franz Joseph included in his General Plans, are in preventing the crew from bouncing off the walls?
 
289 meters. 442. Doesn't matter really. Both the TOS and SNW versions are the same ship just a decade or less apart.

As noted, too, it isn't just the meters but the mass. As I noted decades ago, at 190,000 tonnes the TOS Enterprise at 289 meters would be 90% as dense as water. That is, she would float. The Discoprise has vastly more volume. I haven't obtained it from a model, but if we estimate by boosting the TOS Enterprise to 442 meters then the volume would be about 755700 cubic meters. That puts us at about a quarter of the density of water and twice the density of air.

(Traditionally nacelles have been viewed as particularly dense, which could give the Discoprise a fighting chance at floating in mid-air like a hot air balloon without them.

Oh, and before someone tries to argue 'dry' versus 'wet' mass, do recall (a) the fuel is deuterium, (b) the crew is just 200, and (c) we have the Kobayashi Maru stats which show even a cargo ship to have a dead weight tonnage less than 190,000.)

To recap, using the idea it is the same ship:

2254 ("The Cage")
Look: TOS Enterprise (shots reused in TOS)
Model: 33 inch and 11 foot pilot config
Length: Meh ... I haven't scaled the bridge view with its angle issues nor found one in a quick search, but by eyeball we'll say in the neighborhood of 300–ish meters.
Mass: Not stated

Late 2250s / Early 2260s (Discovery, SNW)
Look: Discoprise, Discoprise Bewindowed
Model: CG variations
Length: Varies, currently 442 meters
(Has been shown at 515 alongside 750m Discovery, displayed at 289 and 442, latter seems to be settle point)
Mass: 190,000 tonnes

Mid-to-late 2260s (TOS)
Look: TOS Enterprise
Model: 33 inch, 11 foot, et al., various configurations ... oh and CG, too.
Length: ~289 meters displayed on screen
Mass: "almost a million" tonnes

Early 2270s (TMP)
Look: TMP Refit Enterprise (later Enterprise-A)
Model: 8 foot TMP model, various partials, AMT/ERTL
Length: 305 meters
Mass: Not stated

(Note that all lengths above are contested via comparison with interior views, though the SNW ship has the largest discrepancy by far thanks to the turbolift caverns.)

Now, there are various possible takes on the data, again operating under the "same ship" hypothesis:

Some think the current 442 meters for the Discoprise overwrites not only the previous 289 and 515 for the Discoprise but also the 289 meters for the TOS Enterprise, whether by administrative fiat of retcon (though no such statement has been made) or by logical necessity of refitting or both, with no apparent thought given to the mass question. By this argument all the entries in the list above should be 442 or so, and presumably we're also looking at a flat rejection of the canonical TOS mass.

Some think 289 is the standard yardstick for starships throughout the original productions and 442 is an aberration, with Ronald Held hypothesizing at one point that the Discoprise was a wartime build that replaced and is later replaced by the TOS style ship.

Various other possibilities exist, but I would like to point out that Star Trek: Picard provides an easy solution to this conundrum.

Recall that the Luna Class Titan, a post-TNG-styled ship featuring an oval saucer, upper pontoonish base for an upper Miranda-esque pod thing, neckless round-bottom secondary hull, and underslung nacelles was explicitly "refit" into the Titan-A, a ship with a TMP-style saucer in the front 2/3rds, large jagged impulse stuff behind that, an old traditional neck leading to a boxy secondary hull, and upswept nacelles.

That is all to say, the argument that the Cage and TOS Enterprise must also be 442 meters out of some antiquated notion of engineering rationale or logical consistency has been surpassed by the new generation of Star Trek shows. Like they said of the TNG era in 1987, aesthetics has surpassed technology and we can build -- and rebuild -- machines in which man would be proud to fly.

This Titan-esque refit hypothesis neatly avoids claims of contradiction and all the messy arguments that come of it, prevents folks from having to pretend they can't read the "Enterprise Incident" screen even in HD, keeps us from having to pretend Scotty doesn't know his ship's mass, and so on. It solves all the problems of the same ship hypothesis.

So, in 2245ish the Enterprise is built at the San Francisco fleet yards (in orbit ... sorry, JJ), then sometime between 2254 and 2257 undergoes extensive refit that lightened and lengthened the ship tremendously. Maybe the old parts were even retained. We might prefer that this refit be right around 2257 since the ship suffered a massive multi-system failure requiring a tow to dock and lengthy repair. In 2258 the ship was restored, then it saw another refit apparently featuring installing the secondary hull pendant slider, cutting windows into the outer saucer framing, and other changes, all of which were complete by 2259. At that point the ship embarked on a series of missions and was also a testbed for new technologies including a holodeck and a follicular antigravity device in the enlarged Captain's quarters, presumably replacing the antique television he had in 2254.

Sometime before 2265 the ship is refit once again, largely returning to the 2254 configuration (hopefully with those retained parts). This refit shortens the ship tremendously yet also increases her mass by a factor of four or five. After a successful five year mission, the ship is refit yet again circa 2271 into a new design of roughly the same size as she'd just been.

Now, with a non-contradictory hypothesis on the table, is there any good reason not to accept it besides foot-stomping my-way-or-the-highway behavior? The way I see it, even the old-time TOS and TMP rescalers who were in the low-300 meter range ought to like this basic framing even if they hold 289/305 in disdain, and they still get to fight 289/305 without impacting or insulting the Discoprise 442 crowd.

Everyone is happy, right?
 
all else aside, picard completely misusing "refit" is not really an out. "we reused some engine components and some hull plating" is not a refit.
the tos-to-tmp- cut off the nacelles and pylons, add the new ones, replace the bridge module, add a corridor ring and rooms, reprofile the hull- is actually very believable. certainly more dramatic refits have been done on terrestrial vessels, to the point of completely changing what kind of ship (cruisers to aircraft carriers, for example) but the majority of the frame and a lot of systems were still there.
 
all else aside, picard completely misusing "refit" is not really an out. "we reused some engine components and some hull plating" is not a refit.

I don't make the rules. It's what they called it. I'm told here that new information supercedes old, so a refit it is. It seems a stretch to us, locked as we are in our macro-scale engineering world, but in an age of nanowhatzits and so on, it's non-contradictory, at least.
 
all else aside, picard completely misusing "refit" is not really an out. "we reused some engine components and some hull plating" is not a refit.
the tos-to-tmp- cut off the nacelles and pylons, add the new ones, replace the bridge module, add a corridor ring and rooms, reprofile the hull- is actually very believable. certainly more dramatic refits have been done on terrestrial vessels, to the point of completely changing what kind of ship (cruisers to aircraft carriers, for example) but the majority of the frame and a lot of systems were still there.
Both refits strain credulity of the definition to me. The Enterprise isn't the same ship by a long shot and the Titan backstory is a mess. Ridiculous.
 
PIC also misused "refit" for the Stargazer in Season 2. I think Terry just doesn't know what it means.

He does. It's just the nature of refits in the new Trek shows. We're used to the idea of the TMP Enterprise refit as the most major example, and we're used to the TNG era that tended to feature approximately zero external changes whatsoever (a mere budget issue from the age of cardboard sets and models and such, not like the far better productions now, amirite?). However, in the mind of Matalas, the TMP-level refit is very common, leading to a Ship of Theseus situation but with updating looks.

Specifically, quoting him from Memory Alpha about the Stargazer:

"Like the TMP Enterprise, it’s a massively updated refit. I like to think of it as the story of the broom: If one day you replace the handle, and another day the brush, is it still the same broom? We thought of it as a vessel endlessly repaired and upgraded, brought in-line with current-future tech, so that somewhere underneath all the lights and polish are the bones of Picard’s original ship. Does it make sense? I don’t know. But I sure like the spirit of it."​

So, I mean, I can see that you guys are less than enthused by the Treknology of the current Trek production era, but if you're rolling with 442 (sans caverns) as highest canon I don't see how you just sort of ignore the multiple examples of neo-refitting. The Stargazer is perhaps the best example since it is literally taking a TMP-era ship of 310 meters size and reworking it into a very different looking ship of 540 meters. And before you suggest they would never change it back to an older look, we have the Titan going from a Sovereign-esque 2370s style to a 2270s style saucer. Literally the only difference is whether there's a renumbering of any kind, but that clearly wasn't how it was done in the 2250s-2270s timeframe as per the Enterprise TMP refit.

So, I think the conclusion is inescapable if you're demanding it's a singular Enterprise 1701 in a singular universe. That's the view being espoused, right?
 
He does. It's just the nature of refits in the new Trek shows. We're used to the idea of the TMP Enterprise refit as the most major example, and we're used to the TNG era that tended to feature approximately zero external changes whatsoever (a mere budget issue from the age of cardboard sets and models and such, not like the far better productions now, amirite?). However, in the mind of Matalas, the TMP-level refit is very common, leading to a Ship of Theseus situation but with updating looks.

Specifically, quoting him from Memory Alpha about the Stargazer:

"Like the TMP Enterprise, it’s a massively updated refit. I like to think of it as the story of the broom: If one day you replace the handle, and another day the brush, is it still the same broom? We thought of it as a vessel endlessly repaired and upgraded, brought in-line with current-future tech, so that somewhere underneath all the lights and polish are the bones of Picard’s original ship. Does it make sense? I don’t know. But I sure like the spirit of it."​

So, I mean, I can see that you guys are less than enthused by the Treknology of the current Trek production era, but if you're rolling with 442 (sans caverns) as highest canon I don't see how you just sort of ignore the multiple examples of neo-refitting. The Stargazer is perhaps the best example since it is literally taking a TMP-era ship of 310 meters size and reworking it into a very different looking ship of 540 meters. And before you suggest they would never change it back to an older look, we have the Titan going from a Sovereign-esque 2370s style to a 2270s style saucer. Literally the only difference is whether there's a renumbering of any kind, but that clearly wasn't how it was done in the 2250s-2270s timeframe as per the Enterprise TMP refit.

So, I think the conclusion is inescapable if you're demanding it's a singular Enterprise 1701 in a singular universe. That's the view being espoused, right?

I’m from Baltimore and we have a ship here named Constellation. There has been a great deal of controversy about this ship over the centuries. The first ship commissioned into the current US Navy was a Constellation, built in Baltimore and launched iirc in 1797. That ship was broken up in Norfolk in, iirc, 1854. Budget constraints placed on new ship construction required the new Constellation built there required it to be classified as a refit. It is an entirely different ship- different type, different lines, different everything. One was a 1797 frigate. The other an 1854 sloop - the last of the Age of Sail ships the Navy would build. And yet if you go down into the keel, there is wood from the original Constellation. About 7%. (Even this assertion is controversial and countered by the most recent evidence but I am going by my own inspections with naval historians who repeated dendrochronological data and information about nails and other fittings.)

So, is it a refit? This is where naval architecture gives way to public policy. In one sense, hell no. In another, of course.
 
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Ship of Theseus and all.

Will Decker implied that one-tenth of the 1701 Refit was still the ship Kirk had commanded on his five-year mission, and one can argue that if even 10% of the original superstructure remains and 90% of the vessel is brand new that it still technically counts as the original ship. The producers and Paramount clearly believe so, and have since 1978-79 and even before that, when Phase Two was in early stages of production.
 
Star Trek writers don't always understand the distinction between a refit and a retrofit.
  1. Refit = major overhaul/maintenance
  2. Retrofit = new technology or capability added
Retrofits often happen during refits, but not exclusively. The TMP ship was a retrofitted refit.

Will Decker implied that one-tenth of the 1701 Refit was still the ship Kirk had commanded on his five-year mission
Sorta. He said Kirk didn't know the ship a tenth as well as he did, which could be as much about specific features as it its about how much of the ship has been replaced.
 
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A company in town bought an old (over 100 years) multi-story building with plans to convert it into offices. A stipulation was they could not tear the building down, but they could remodel it.

The company tore most of the building down but left 1 side standing. They rebuilt what they tore down. Since they left 1 side standing, this was considered a remodel.

This is how I consider the Enterprise refit went for the TMP. It was political or some other bureaucratic reasons. They left enough of the original Enterprise to legally call it a refit.
 
Are we just ignoring we have access to the diagram from the episode "The Enterprise Incident" ?

Diagram from The Making Star Trek
6E0hLSe
That bridge is tiny (of course, the notion of the bridge sunk a bit into the B/C deck can fix that.

The FJ (Achernar) works best for a 947 foot length otherwise.

The TAS shuttlebay might fit in a 947 meter ship. ;)

I bet the inflatable one was that long.
 
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