How big was the Enterprise?

[fireproof78]

We're working on a better future.

Except for Starfleet officers and personnel. Fuck those people...


Ok, Sarcasm aside but that's my initial read of the presentation. Nowhere do I think that the quarters should be luxurious, but I don't think it should be 20th or 21st century naval vessel style either. I thought the whole idea of Star Trek was that they had more resources not less and seek to deprive their exploration staff.

 

[aridas sofia]

“if you're taking away someone's nice cabin space just to "toughen them up" then you've probably got trouble heading your way.”

That is most definitely not the point. You have taken away their nice cabin space because they don’t want it. They don’t want it because they have too many other interesting and challenging things to do outside their cabin, and they tend to use the cabin for sleeping, showering, and little else.

Even sailors on 18th and early-19th century sailing vessels had a lot to do, all the time. Many must have enjoyed what they did to some degree, because they joined of their own free will. Some were pressed into service, and yet the hard discipline of that navy didn’t breed rampant mutiny. It was very rare, and when it did happen, it was a noteworthy thing, and at least in the case of Bounty, had much more to do with the absence of discipline and the crew being allowed to “go native” than the actual discipline itself.

Remember, the word “discipline” can mean either “control” or “training”, or both. I have to wonder why people reading my posts keep saying Starfleet shouldn’t be treating their crew as prison inmates when I have been saying the crew are like Olympic athletes and Starfleet is facilitating their quest as well as fulfilling a responsibility to the society it serves.

 

[Will_Carter]

hey don’t want it because they have too many other interesting and challenging things to do outside their cabin, and they tend to use the cabin for sleeping, showering, and little else.

This is a valid point when designing a ship. 'How often are the crewman going to be in those quarters? Will they be expected to basically only need a bunk and a place to keep a few personal things and clothes, or will they have a need for time away from the communal spaces?

 

[Tallguy]

That is most definitely not the point.

I assure you I didn't think it was.

You have taken away their nice cabin space because they don’t want it. They don’t want it because they have too many other interesting and challenging things to do outside their cabin, and they tend to use the cabin for sleeping, showering, and little else.

Aside from resources this is by far the best argument.

 

[fireproof78]

I have to wonder why people reading my posts keep saying Starfleet shouldn’t be treating their crew as prison inmates when I have been saying the crew are like Olympic athletes and Starfleet is facilitating their quest as well as fulfilling a responsibility to the society it serves.

Because people have needs outside discipline.

 

[BK613]

I suppose we could just have the crew sling hammocks on the tween decks.

I'm sure glad things were somewhat better in the 80s. We at least had permanent bunks with privacy curtains (which in no way was an answer for sleeping in the same space as those you worked with but it helped. And thank goodness for the advent of the Walkman.)
And, of course, we had indoor plumbing. No pooping or peeing up by the ship's figurehead.

Poor undisciplined us, living in the lap of luxury like that.

 

[aridas sofia]

Because people have needs outside discipline.

Of course they do. But people who do extraordinary things spend extraordinary amounts of time devoted to preparing for and doing those things. And the fact they are being shown doing extraordinary things makes them worthy of having stories written about them.

 

[fireproof78]

Of course they do. But people who do extraordinary things spend extraordinary amounts of time devoted to preparing for and doing those things. And the fact they are being shown doing extraordinary things makes them worthy of having stories written about them.

So they get spartan things?


Sorry, perhaps a deficiency in my part but I just don't follow how deprivation is acceptable as a matter of design philosophy.

 

[blssdwlf]

What exactly is the argument here? That TOS crew quarters are too large and luxurious or that TNG or SNW quarters are too large and luxurious compared to TOS or to US Navy standards?

 

[fireproof78]

What exactly is the argument here? That TOS crew quarters are too large and luxurious or that TNG or SNW quarters are too large and luxurious compared to TOS or to US Navy standards?

My assumption is the later. In addition, the argument appears that the larger quarters promotes laziness among the crew. At least to me.

 

[BK613]

It began at point one of this post

 

[carcinoGeneticist]

I know most people won't care, but do we know how many decks the ship is? I always figured about 20-25. I remember when Voyager (series) was new, Voyager was said to be about the size of Kirk's ship. That might be true regarding general length/width/height, but due to the overall design of the ship, there has to be far more internal volume.

Everyone says Voyager is a small ship, though, and I doubt that Kirk's ship is small.

 

[scotpens]

In The Trouble With Tribbles, it was the Klingons who said Enterprise was the luxurious ship compared to theirs and that that made “Earthers” soft.

No such line was spoken in the original episode. Unless you're thinking of Capt. Koloth calling Kirk a Regulan bloodworm, which he describes as "soft and shapeless."

. . . Even on the FJ plans nobody shares a room, right? Although not everyone has an office and lots of people share a bathroom.

The Franz Joseph plans show mostly double-occupancy crew cabins, with singles reserved for senior officers. Most of the junior officers' quarters share a bathroom between 2 cabins.

 

[aridas sofia]

No such line was spoken in the original episode. Unless you're thinking of Capt. Koloth calling Kirk a Regulan bloodworm, which he describes as "soft and shapeless."


The Franz Joseph plans show mostly double-occupancy crew cabins, with singles reserved for senior officers. Every cabin has a private bathroom.

KOLOTH: Let me assure you that my intentions are peaceful. As I've already told Mister Lurry, the purpose of my presence is to invoke shore leave rights.

KIRK: Shore leave?

KOLOTH: Captain, we Klingons are not as luxury-minded as you Earthers. We do not equip our ships with, how shall I say it, non-essentials.

KORAX: We have been in space for five months. What we choose as recreation is our own business.

 

[Shaw]

When I was doing research for my plans of the Enterprise, I found that there are real world equivalences to the type of missions seen in TOS. Two examples are the BAS Halley VI Research Station and the USCGC Healy (a Coast Guard icebreaker).

I won't provide plans for either (as that type of data seems unwelcome in these types of discussions), but I'm sure anyone interested can find videos of walk throughs of both on YouTube.

 

[scotpens]

. . . KOLOTH: Captain, we Klingons are not as luxury-minded as you Earthers. We do not equip our ships with, how shall I say it, non-essentials.

Ah, I had forgotten that line. I stand corrected.

 

[aridas sofia]

So they get spartan things?


Sorry, perhaps a deficiency in my part but I just don't follow how deprivation is acceptable as a matter of design philosophy.

Spartan things? I don’t understand what you mean. They are focused on their jobs. They likely would spend much more time doing and training to do their jobs than you or I probably do. They literally live their jobs. If you were to climb Mount Everest, would you carry a BarcaLounger on your back? After all, you deserve it after all that hard work. Or would you stay focused on the task you had chosen to undertake and you believe gives your life meaning? It is a matter of focus and priorities. You carry what you need, not what you are afraid you might want.

Also, let me emphatically reject the words being attributed to me that I somehow think giving crew large quarters promotes laziness among them, when I said they wouldn’t want large quarters. I seriously don’t know how anyone could get the one point from the other.

If I haven’t made my original point the gentleman above so kindly directed your attentions to by now, it isn’t going to be made. You disagree. Understood. It is what it is.

 

[Commander Troi]

I think you all are in more agreement than you think. Yes, they live their jobs. Yes, they spend A LOT of time training. BUT they also probably spend a lot of time reading up on the latest research in their field. And some people need quiet, personal space more than others psychologically (like, say, a half-Vulcan who meditates).

The fact is, other than Lower Decks, we've really only seen the officers' rooms. And LD shows us crewpeople in bunk beds. So first, RHIP. Second, as has been pointed out, the captain uses his space for entertaining VIPS and as an office, so yeah, that's going to be bigger.

I can't read the measurements on the set plans that are floating around.

Put your readers on, dear.

But there have to be trade offs. So what is the ship and the mission not able to do because everyone on the bridge crew (so far everyone who is not a cadet, I think) has quarters that I would have been envious of through all of my 20's.

Here, I think, is the point: we haven't been shown that there are any things they're not able to do because of the cabin sizes. Just because Pike's cabin is bigger than my house (possibly) doesn't mean they had to ditch some critical system.

 

[fireproof78]

think you all are in more agreement than you think. Yes, they live their jobs. Yes, they spend A LOT of time training. BUT they also probably spend a lot of time reading up on the latest research in their field. And some people need quiet, personal space more than others psychologically (like, say, a half-Vulcan who meditates).

Indeed.

I operate on a simple principle; the more complex the work the more simple the play. The idea that these dedicated professionals wouldn't want more than the bare basics strikes me as odd because they don't get many options. So creating opportunities for relaxation would be as needed as task focused spaces.

On a ship on a 5 year mission I think this is more critical because they can't just take a break or leave the ship and need some measure of choice. Maybe not bigger quarters but may be a recreational space to enjoy, or a green space to unwind in.

 

[Will_Carter]

I think this is more critical because they can't just take a break or leave the ship and need some measure of choice. Maybe not bigger quarters but may be a recreational space to enjoy, or a green space to unwind in.

Agreed.

Look. I was in a residential school through most of my educational 'career.' the rooms we were in were two to a room, two rooms per bathroom. Each person had a desk, dresser, bed, closet. Plenty of common space though, which was where we tended to hang out when not doing homework. Was it extravigant? Oh hell no. However it did the job in a space effeciant manner.

Hell. I remember one year, the guy i shared a room with had a giant bucket of lego that was kinda a group project for awhile in the commons.