Hoshi & T'Pol: Sugar, Spice and Pon farr.

[Aquarius]

I found Bluetiger's work safe MU Hoshi/T'Pol pic: http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy300/4bluetiger/ShakaikIIsmall.jpg

She's also posted a link to the nude version in the Expanse's slash art thread.

 

[Michael]

[It's hotlinked and posted without the artist's permission, which renders the issue moot.

No hotlinking. Please review the FAQ regarding image posting. Reviewing the terms of DeviantArt would be a good idea too, while you're at it. --HR]

Sorry about that. Of course you were right; I didn't have the artist's permission (although it isn't bandwidth theft in any way). So I asked and actually got the permission to post the image here. For everyone who hasn't clicked on the URL in my post, here is Metal-Dragon-Kiryu's Hoshi/T'Pol picture again. Enjoy.

 

[Honeybee]

I've always thought homosexuality, which I assume must exist, would have to have some mechanism with which to deal with it in Vulcan society. We know they have arranged marriages and the main point seems to be procreation.

So, if someone grows up homosexual - T'Pol or Spock or whoever - then it would necessitate breaking off the engagement somehow. That to me would be a very interesting thing to explore since we know that breaking off engagements does happen as does divorce.

One of the writers over at The Expanse writes everyone as omni-sexual and she wrote the only real Hoshi/T'Pol love story on our site - Shakaik. She goes with pon farr being about procreation and it causing drama between the two women. It's quite an interesting take because Hoshi and T'Pol are bonded and very much in love.

 

[Gaith]

I would have loved to see an organic "serious" relationship develop between T'Pol and Hoshi. Hell, I would love to see ANY organic serious relationship on Trek, because outside of DS9 and Paris/Torres, Trek hasn't exactly been stellar in that department.

This. I'm actually kind of notorious on the SF/F subforum for suggesting movies starring lesbian versions of heroines not always (or even ever) considered bi or lesbian. I'd love to see Wonder Woman, Lara Croft, Supergirl and alternate-universe female Hal Jordans/Peter Parkers kick ass and kiss girls on screen. Part straight male wish fulfillment? Sure, but part respect for homosexuality also; I believe they can go hand in hand.

That said, when dealing with an established continuity, a Polly/Sato relationship would probably have been overly weird if they'd started halfway through the show, going, "Surprise! These two are bi, and now they're crushing on each other!" If they'd been portrayed or even hinted as being bi or lesbian from the start, though, that would've been another thing. Another, really hot, thing.

 

[Middleman]

Based on what I saw (the canon), I can only view T'Pol as being heterosexual. T'Pol had her bonding with Trip, at one point she had a curiosity in Tolaris and of course there was Koss. There was no evidence, that I noticed, indicating that she would be sexually interested in a woman. Even in the episode Rijiin, she seemed uncomfortable with what was happening between her and Rijiin. Now Hoshi struck me very differently. We know she had heterosexual relationships (2 Days & 2 Nights, E2), but in the episode Rijiin, I thought Hoshi was a little more than flattered and really enjoying the attention that RiJiin was giving her. Any thoughts?

 

[Aquarius]

^ Hey, TnT are my OTP...but that doesn't mean that other things aren't fun to think about.

Honeybee and I were talking, and another 'ship we thought might be viable to consider is T'Pol/Cutler. We considered the possibility that in "Strange New World," Cutler's curiosity about experiencing things Vulcan may extend to the science officer.

 

[Middleman]

^ Hey, TnT are my OTP...but that doesn't mean that other things aren't fun to think about.

Honeybee and I were talking, and another 'ship we thought might be viable to consider is T'Pol/Cutler. We considered the possibility that in "Strange New World," Cutler's curiosity about experiencing things Vulcan may extend to the science officer.

Both you and Honeybee are creative types and I can see where you guys can look at something, stretch out the concept and come up with something totally new, that no one may have seen or gave a thought to.

I'm different and for the most part, I need to have seen it before I can embrace it. I like things clear cut. This is why, even though I'm having fun discussing Hoshi / T'Pol in this thread, I could never actually picture T'Pol in a lesbian relationship because there was no canon evidence of it. It's the same reason why I refuse to accept the other non-canon ships that are often discussed like they actually happened on air.

 

[Aquarius]

Both you and Honeybee are creative types and I can see where you guys can look at something, stretch out the concept and come up with something totally new, that no one may have seen or gave a thought to.

Yes and no. Keep in mind, both Honeybee and I are academics, accustomed to "reading" things critically. We may be able to tease things out of the subtext, but we're not going to be like some people who will take something like eye contact being made when saying, "Pass the salt," as "evidence" of love/repressed feelings/whatever.

In a T'Pol/Cutler case, the most "logical" thing we might tease out of that is maybe a one-sided crush...but that's a starting point that could be built upon and, if we're decent writers, written convincingly.

I agree that textually, T'Pol is heterosexual. However, with ample imagination, she doesn't have to be all the time.

 

[USS Triumphant]

1. Just because homosexuality is an occurring phenomenon in humans does not, to me, suggest that it necessarily happens or does not happen in any other sentient species on Star Trek. Perhaps Vulcans don't have any gayness in their population. Perhaps Klingons have it, but have a higher or lower percentage of it than humans. Perhaps Bajorans have lesbianism, but no gay males. Maybe Bolians have gay males, but no lesbians. We're talking about completely different evolutionary paths in different environments, here.

2. If homosexuality has a biological component - which is supported by science and which I also, from experiences with gay friends and family, believe - that results in a male essentially having some of the sexual characteristics of a straight female, or vice-versa, and assuming that Vulcans have homosexuality, then I see no reason why gay Pon Farr would not occur. The sex drive of each of the participants would desire exactly what it normally would, just in overdrive, because it functionally behaves as though that activity will result in reproduction!

This has been Dr. Frasier Crane, on the late night Loveline. Good night, Seattle.

 

[Honeybee]

Yeah, what Aquarius said! LOL

I have written slash - m/m not f/f, and when I did I recognized that it wasn't canon - and I was squeezing it out of tiny crumbs of subtext. Now, I've seen more overt slash subtext in in Trek before than what I was working from- there's the famous episode where Harry and Tom are in prison on Voyager and I do see where the original K/S stuff comes from.

As for as Hoshi/T'Pol - I don't think it's an accident that the most common femslash fics that I've seen take place in the MU - where both were far more overtly sexual and Hoshi was downright promiscuous and mixing flirtation with her anger toward T'Pol.

Although, I am reminded of a quote that's in the documentary film The Celluloid Closet - the screenwriter is saying that while Sal Mineo's character was supposed to be gay, James Dean's was not written to be gay. But, he says that as an artist, he feels that the audience has a right to bring themselves and their perceptions to the table. He said that he was fine with the interpretation that there was an attraction between the two.

So, I'm perfectly fine with the idea of people writing any pairing they wish, including RU Hoshi and T'Pol.

Eggheady enough for you, Aquarius?

 

[Aquarius]

Eggheady enough for you, Aquarius?

*blows you a kiss*

RE the phenomena of homosexuality in other species on Star Trek: When you consider that other races are supposed to represent various aspects of our own society, I wouldn't give too much consideration to those different evolutionary paths, at least not from the perspective of a storyteller. In terms of the Vulcans, I can see homosexuality happening but not being talked about. This is a culture that arranges heterosexual marriages for its children. They clearly intend for these children to procreate. From an evolutionary standpoint, pon farr would certainly help to ensure that this procreation happens. They are a long-lived race; regulating the mating urge to the seven year interval could be nature's failsafe against overpopulation, while ensuring that repopulation happens at all in a society that could very well logic itself right out of sex.

When we think about it, there is no "logic" to recreational sex (though we know some couples do have it outside the pon farr cycle), but mating for procreation is extremely logical. So I can see their society objecting to homosexuality on those grounds. Basically, from a literary standpoint, on this issue they'd serve as an allegory for what our own society is currently in the process of progressing away from.

 

[Honeybee]

I think on one level, you might be right.

However, I'm going to say that Vulcans would also find it illogical for their child to marry someone with whom they would not develop any "affection" for. I take affection as their euphemism for romantic love, and as I understand matebonds as we saw them in Enterprise, they would form with someone that you had romantic/sexual attraction to.

So, I would speculate that Vulcans would either have some mechanism for recognizing homosexuality early on - before the childhood betrothals or they would have some sort of logical out. This would be irrespective of whether or not pon farr could be satisfied by a same sex partner. Marriage to Vulcans seems to be on the surface about procreation, but just as it is in our society, it's more than that. It's about family - and the basis of that would be romantic affection.

 

[Aquarius]

However, I'm going to say that Vulcans would also find it illogical for their child to marry someone with whom they would not develop any "affection" for. I take affection as their euphemism for romantic love, and as I understand matebonds as we saw them in Enterprise, they would form with someone that you had romantic/sexual attraction to.

Okay, except T'Pol, though textually straight, wanted nothing to do with Koss. If we apply the notion that Vulcan society would find it illogical to force a marriage on her because there was so little chance that she'd develop affection for him, then T'Les wouldn't have been pushing her to fulfill her "duty." I don't see T'Pol saying "But mom, I like girls" making much of a difference here.

I agree about a matebond forming with your partner if you were romantically/sexually attracted to them. But I'm coming from the standpoint that Vulcan society "expects" you to be straight. Whether you actually are or not is something else.

 

[Mach5]

Even in the episode Rijiin, she seemed uncomfortable with what was happening between her and Rijiin.

She looked pretty tempted to me, though it was clear that she was aware she was getting mindfucked so she knew better than to give in.

 

[Honeybee]

She looked pretty tempted to me, though it was clear that she was aware she was getting mindfucked so she knew better than to give in

I'm going to respectfully disagree very strongly. I thought there wasn't a hint of T'Pol being interested in Rajiin and that was nothing more than another horrible example of mind rape - as well as the icky stereotype of the "predatory" bisexual person. I think the actress who played Rajiin was playing it sexual - but JB/T'Pol was not. The scene reads as nothing but an example of violence used to sexually titillate and it was one of my least favorite moments in the whole series. And that was on top of the whole let's write an episode that decries sex slavery by making the sexy slave really really sexy. Not cool in my book.

Although, I freely admit the producers wanted it both ways - for the audience to be turned on by two chicks and to be horrified by the violence against T'Pol. The one redeemable thing is that T'Pol is suffering terrible and continues to suffer, rather than enjoying what happened to her since she is not interested and does not consent from the moment Rajiin arrives in her cabin.

 

[Aquarius]

Even in the episode Rijiin, she seemed uncomfortable with what was happening between her and Rijiin.

She looked pretty tempted to me, though it was clear that she was aware she was getting mindfucked so she knew better than to give in.

T'Pol's discomfort was about the violation and not about the homoeroticism. Like Honeybee, I agree that the scene was supposed to carry some homoerotic titillation for the audience, but it doesn't appear to me that it's on T'Pol's mind at any point. Is it a rape metaphor, just as Tolaris forcing his meld onto T'Pol after she said no in "Fusion"? Absolutely.

 

[Honeybee]

I don't think it's homophobic on T'Pol's part to find someone who she doesn't trust uninvited in her cabin and not be interested in her "charms" at all. You're right, it's about the violation. My guess is if a same sex crew member made a pass at her and she wasn't interested, she'd politely decline.

It's interesting that Hoshi does succumb to the attack (and I think it is an attack, even for those who don't resist) - which brings up the question - Is Hoshi attracted to Rajiin and that's why the charm works? Or is the hypnosis not necessarily sexual?

Vulcans are monogamous, and we learn later in Bound that the bond can make you resistant to this kind of mind control. This is really early in season three and pre Harbinger, so I doubt she's bonded with Trip, but she clearly has no interest in the strange woman in cabin.

But I don't think there's enough detail here to really explain why T'Pol resists, even just the woman in her cabin is a red flag, enough for her to put up mental resistance.

But, if you want subtext crumbs to support Hoshi at least going both ways, I think you can find it in Rajiin, if you want to believe the hypnotic charm is purely sexual.

 

[Aquarius]

I basically assumed that T'Pol resisted because unlike her human crewmates, she has certain telepathic abilities, so she was able to recognize the attack for what it was and put up a fight that the others would not have been able to.

Also, I've seen some convincing arguments made for the possibility that even pre-Harbinger, TnT's bond could very well have been in its very beginnings, due to the intimacy of contact during neuropressure and T'Pol being more "open" to it due to Trellium exposure/use. A tiny spark that may well have been easily snuffed out at that point, sure, but it had to start from something, so I think that reasoning is valid.

Hoshi strikes me as being pretty experimental, or at least willing to march to her own drum. She hooks up with that guy in 2D2N guilt-free, and there were the poker games she admitted to hosting in her past. Hardly a smoking gun, I know, but it does hint at a certain amount of flexible thinking.

 

[Middleman]

It's interesting that Hoshi does succumb to the attack (and I think it is an attack, even for those who don't resist) - which brings up the question - Is Hoshi attracted to Rajiin and that's why the charm works? Or is the hypnosis not necessarily sexual?

But, if you want subtext crumbs to support Hoshi at least going both ways, I think you can find it in Rajiin, if you want to believe the hypnotic charm is purely sexual.

The odd thing is that I must have watched Season 3 about 4 times since 2007 and I'm going through a re-watch now; this is the first time I noticed it. I was on a plane heading back form Portland, Oregon about a week ago and I'm looking at this scene and I'm saying to myself, Hoshi is really getting into this interaction with Rijiin. In fact, I'd swear she was flirting back. Now maybe I was tired from traveling and I don't like to read too much into something that might be very simple, but I'd love to ask Linda Park how she played it.

Vulcans are monogamous, and we learn later in Bound that the bond can make you resistant to this kind of mind control. This is really early in season three and pre Harbinger, so I doubt she's bonded with Trip, but she clearly has no interest in the strange woman in cabin.

I see it the way you do. The only thing I would add is that based on everything we saw in previous episodes, I would be hard pressed to believe that T'Pol would engage in a same sex relationship. Maybe this is my own personal bias talking (bias regarding the character, not same sex relationships, for those who require clarification) but it would be out of character, based on everything we know about her.

Regarding T'Pol not being bonded to Trip at this point; It's possible, but I haven't bought into that concept totally.

 

[Middleman]

Also, I've seen some convincing arguments made for the possibility that even pre-Harbinger, TnT's bond could very well have been in its very beginnings, due to the intimacy of contact during neuropressure and T'Pol being more "open" to it due to Trellium exposure/use.

What she said.