Hoshi & T'Pol: Sugar, Spice and Pon farr.

[T'Girl]

BTW, do you think a Vulcan could even go through pon farr without the mate of an opposite sex?

Well, if she's lesbian or bi then duh. No offense, but that's rather ignorant and insulting at the same time.

Speaking as someone who is not just gay, but incredibly gay, Mach5 question makes a great deal of sense. I've alway held that what triggered Spock's Pon Farr was T'Pring ovulating for the first time, combined with the psycho bond they shared. When T'Pring was ready to breed, Spock came running.

In the case of T'Pol entering Pon Farr, with Hoshi already being her partner. Hoshi would not be able to deliver what T'Pol needed, because what T'Pol would be needing at that point in her life would be a erect penis attached to a fertile male. T'Pol's sexual orientation would briefly become irrelevant.

Although, if Hoshi and T'Pol kept a certain "toy" in their quarters ...

 

[Agenda]

It's the old lesbophobia. The belief that two women can't possibly satisfy one another. They always need a man. Of course, never mind the countless Kirk/Spock pon farr stories where there's never a question of Spock needing a woman. "Reproduction" isn't even brought up. Oh no, of course not. It's always different for men. But the moment the topic of a Vulcan lesbian comes up, we have to start asking questions (gasp, but doesn't she still need a cock - doesn't she need to be a baby machine?). We can probably add an ounce of misogyny into this as well.

 

[Aquarius]

It depends on if you're viewing pon farr through the lens of sexual gratification or through one of reproduction. And no, they are not the same thing. People have sex for a variety of reasons other than procreating. Conversely, single women seek the help of sperm banks because they want to reproduce, but are not in a sexual relationship with someone.

Viewing pon farr through a reproductive lens does not make one a bigot, a misogynist, or a homophobe, nor does it mean that the person who sees it that way believes that women can't possibly please each other sexually. The fact of the matter is, unless you want to adopt, or can create a clone, you need a sperm and an egg to make a baby--which has nothing to do with how you achieved an orgasm or who gave it to you.

 

[Agenda]

So I have a question then. If Pon Farr is really about reproduction - and not sexual satisfaction - then why would a heterosexual Vulcan female use a human male? It's not logical. No child would result. Vulcans and humans can't naturally interbreed.

 

[Aquarius]

Well, you may think that you've backed me into a corner here, but when you consider that a Vulcan male and a Vulcan female having sex doesn't guarantee a pregnancy, it just means that they fulfilled the urge to try, then a human male could very well serve as an acceptable proxy. Furthermore, there is nothing that says a human sperm and a Vulcan egg cannot combine on their own, it just isn't very likely, and if it did happen, the woman is likely to miscarry, as her body would probably reject the fetus if it was too dissimilar from her own body.

And seriously? If you want to view it through a lens of sexual gratification, that's great...but others' viewpoint that it's reproductive in no way threatens your point of view. There's no need to ascribe labels like lesbophobe and misogynist to those who take the reproductive route. There's room for both points of view, they're both valid.

 

[Agenda]

And now the ferocious backpedaling and convoluted explanations to justify the heterosexist worldview begins.

 

[Honeybee]

Aquarius, honey, is someone calling you heterosexist? Because as your girlfriend, I take serious offense.

And I'll point out that T'Pol, in Bounty, says specifically that she needs to mate with a male. That's the canon, and moreover, she throws herself at two males she never has shown an ounce of attraction to or ever shows attraction to again. In canon, she's only ever shown actually having sexual affection for Trip and you could argue that she has sublimated attraction to Archer - but she's never shown to be interested in Phlox or Malcolm.

So, to me, Pon Farr for her seems to exist outside of her normal attraction. That said, if someone wants to write a fic and present a different scenario, I'm cool with it. I just don't take offense when someone writes to canon.

 

[Aquarius]

Thanks, sugar. Remind me to thank you properly later.

On the topic of gratification vs. reproduction -- if it was about pleasure, then it would seem reasonable that masturbation would be an acceptable resolution for pon farr. Evidently it isn't, since another person is always involved. Just sayin'.

And...heterosexist? Really? You can't confront a differing point of view without name calling? *shakes head* Fair, healthy debate is one thing, but this...?

 

[Agenda]

Don't give a shit. I call it as I see it.

 

[Sci]

Question:

If we presume that a female Vulcan experiencing pon farr would need to become intimate with a man in order to sate the pon farr instinct and could not do so with a female, do we also assume that a male Vulcan experiencing pon farr could only sate the pon farr drive through sex with a woman? Or would a male Vulcan be able to sate the pon farr drive through sex with another male?

 

[Aquarius]

Question:

If we presume that a female Vulcan experiencing pon farr would need to become intimate with a man in order to sate the pon farr instinct and could not do so with a female, do we also assume that a male Vulcan experiencing pon farr could only sate the pon farr drive through sex with a woman?

That would be my take, yes. But again, it depends on if you're on the pleasure or the reproductive side of the fence.

If you're on the pleasure side, then the answer would be no, regardless if the Vulcan in question is male or female.

If you're on the reproductive side, then the answer is yes, a member of the opposite sex is needed because the Vulcan in question is being driven to procreate. Whether the attempt is successful is another story.

 

[Skywalker]

In the VOY episode "Blood Fever," the Vulcan male Vorik attempted to initiate pon farr with B'Elanna because there were no Vulcan females on board.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

why would a heterosexual Vulcan female use a human male? It's not logical. No child would result. Vulcans and humans can't naturally interbreed.

You know Spock kind of invalidates that argument by you know existing (in a figurative way)

 

[Sci]

why would a heterosexual Vulcan female use a human male? It's not logical. No child would result. Vulcans and humans can't naturally interbreed.

You know Spock kind of invalidates that argument by you know existing (in a figurative way)

Not really. ENT established that Human/Vulcan interbreeding requires extensive genetic intervention.

 

[Gaith]

Well, they could always have written something to the effect of Pon Farr causes Vulcans to seek a mate of the opposite sex for reproduction purposes; however, a certain protein in that week's Rigellian stew rewired Polly's hormones, temporarily tricking her body into thinking that Hoshi had what she needed... I wouldn't have complained.

http://img830.imageshack.us/img830/56/redshirts.jpg


[Don't use the topic (such as it is) to post stuff like this. At the very least, it's off-topic. --HR]

 

[Mach5]

It's the old lesbophobia. The belief that two women can't possibly satisfy one another.

Did you even fucking read my opening post? I literally wrote: "I guess it would be possible, since it's all in their heads anyway"

Meaning: "orgasm isn't between the legs, its in the head", so i reckon IT IS possible for same sex couples to go through pon farr without the third party assistance.

I actually expressed my belief that IT IS POSSIBLE, for fuck sake! And now I'm actually being accused of LESBOPHOBIA?

What, you're bothered by the fact that I'm interested in OTHER PEOPLE'S OPINIONS?

WHAT THE FUCK?

In the VOY episode "Blood Fever," the Vulcan male Vorik attempted to initiate pon farr with B'Elanna because there were no Vulcan females on board.

That only indicates that he's a solid 0 on a Kinsey scale, nothing more.

Also, didn't Tuvok deal with his PF with a HOLOGRAM of his wife? His holographic wife wasn't really female, but more like a very realistic sex doll. BTW, it might have worked for him, but it didn't for Vorik, which only leads to one conclusion - the resolution of pon farr doesn't even require a mate at all. Only thing that's really needed is satisfying the urge, which is a subjective, individual thing (because different people "get off" in different ways).

 

[Skywalker]

Also, didn't Tuvok deal with his PF with a HOLOGRAM of his wife? His holographic wife wasn't really female, but more like a very realistic sex doll.

Wow, seriously?

I actually didn't know that. I only knew about Vorik because I happaned to catch a rerun of "Blood Fever" years ago.

 

[bluedana]

Look, if people can't discuss this topic without flying off the handle or accusing each other of phobias, -isms, and bigotry, then this thread will be closed. People have different perspectives and opinions; that's the whole point of a discussion board.

 

[Aquarius]

Well, they could always have written something to the effect of Pon Farr causes Vulcans to seek a mate of the opposite sex for reproduction purposes; however, a certain protein in that week's Rigellian stew rewired Polly's hormones, temporarily tricking her body into thinking that Hoshi had what she needed... I wouldn't have complained.

This brings to mind another side of the question, though:

Is it better to see T'Pol's body "fooled" into thinking she needs Hoshi in a get-me-off-or-I'll-die situation? Or something more meaningful and long-term? Sex alone? Or relationship?

One of the reasons I liked Mistress E's fic is because T'Pol and Hoshi come by their relationship organically, without violating anything canonically shown in "In a Mirror, Darkly." She doesn't just blatantly ignore that Tucker did T'Pol a "favor", or the fact that Hoshi had been sleeping with Forrest and Archer, yet T'Pol and Hoshi are bonded and in love.

One of my pet peeves about pon farr in the fanfic arena is that it's too often used as plot device/justification for pairing T'Pol (or any other Vulcan, for that matter) up with whomever the author is 'shipping her with, both in het and slash. If you're going for a PWP and titillation is the only purpose of the story, okay, I get it, it's fine. But that's not quite what I'm talking about here. In stories where there's supposed to be a "plot" and a "point" beyond the titillation, I've seen authors use this to stick two people together who otherwise wouldn't be hooking up, who have shown no previous interest in each other in the show...rather than taking the time to craft a back story that suggests what could've been going on off-camera in the show, or showing us how the situation could have changed, and letting it manifest organically.

So what I'm wondering is, how do people feel about seeing T'Pol and Hoshi in an actual relationship vs. something that's just sexually motivated?

 

[Admiral Shran]

I would have loved to see an organic "serious" relationship develop between T'Pol and Hoshi. Hell, I would love to see ANY organic serious relationship on Trek, because outside of DS9 and Paris/Torres, Trek hasn't exactly been stellar in that department.

If it actually did grow from the story and didn't come across as the writers simply saying - "Well, it's time Trek had some gay characters." "Hey about T'Pol and Hoshi!" - I would be all for it. Like you said Aquarius, it needs to be meaningful, LONG-term and organic.

But then again, I'm perfectly happy to read some PWP titillation fanfic as well. So, YMMV.