Hippocratic Oath

[WesleysDisciple]

Saw an argument years back on if Obrien was right.


I'll go ahead and state my position

BAshir should have had obrien court martialed, and possibly shot... oh wait Starfleet doesnt execute people

Pity.

People there were saying Bashir should have Defered to Obrien, because Obriens Military Experience Exceeded Bashirs.

thoughts?

 

[TerragonSix]

Just because a subordinate violates an order, does not constitute a court martial.

 

[Pavonis]

Was Bashir actually in charge of O'Brien during that incident? Or were they merely traveling together as buddies? Is Bashir in the chain of command? Most physicians aren't, and despite outranking O'Brien, if O'Brien were in charge of the mission, would it matter what Bashir "ordered" him to do?

 

[TerragonSix]

In terms of chain of command, O'Brien probably could've told Bashir to pound sand and not really got into major trouble about it.

But there is a difference between actual military logic and Federation Officer logic.

Keep in mind, Dr. Crusher was allowed to sit in the chair from time to time on the Enterprise, though there were far more people qualified to do so.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ But the difference is, Beverly took the bridge officer's test, which qualified her to stand watch on the bridge. Bashir hasn't done that.

 

[TerragonSix]

I will say, in actual military logic, a smart, inexperienced officer relies on experienced NCO's to help them get adjusted to a new job, or something that they are supervising that they are not necessarily qualified for. That's how young officers live to be old officers.

However, doctors in general are a different kind of people that don't usually ask and don't want advice from subordinates (I used to be a paramedic years ago) You also have to keep in mind that doctors, with their Hippocratic oath, might have to make decisions that may not be necessarily the smart decisions.

 

[MacLeod]

In a way both of them are right and wrong in this episode. Each was trying to uphold their beliefs.

 

[Dragoniguana]

If you ask me, Bashir was definitely right. O'Brien thought he was being more practical, but really, it was Bashir who was thinking about the well-being of the Federation: If Bashir actually HAD found a way to sever the Jem'Hadar there from ketracel white, that could have been the first step to freeing all Jem'Hadar, which obviously would have been a huge blow to the Dominion. Seems to me like O'Brien was just worried about saving their own skins.

 

[Pavonis]

Except, of course, "free" Jem'Hadar are equally likely to go on a rampage against the Federation as they are likely to be grateful. O'Brien pointed out that at least the Founders kept them on a short leash (his exact words, IIRC). And who is to say that free Jem'Hadar wouldn't still choose to serve the Dominion? The white addiction seemed more like a way for the Vorta to handle the Jem'Hadar, since they would otherwise probably be ignored by the soldiers.

 

[JarodRussell]

You also have to keep in mind that doctors, with their Hippocratic oath, might have to make decisions that may not be necessarily the smart decisions.

Does the Hippocratic Oath actually have any real world implications? We always see doctors help captured enemies and so forth, but they don't HAVE to do that, do they? It's not like Starfleet Medical comes to Bashir and fires him because he didn't help a dying Jem'Hadar.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Except, of course, "free" Jem'Hadar are equally likely to go on a rampage against the Federation as they are likely to be grateful. O'Brien pointed out that at least the Founders kept them on a short leash (his exact words, IIRC). And who is to say that free Jem'Hadar wouldn't still choose to serve the Dominion? The white addiction seemed more like a way for the Vorta to handle the Jem'Hadar, since they would otherwise probably be ignored by the soldiers.

Exactly. The Jem'Hadar are literally built to be nothing more than killers. Killing is all they do - it's all they can ever do.

There can be only two choices: the Jem'Hadar killing only who the Founders tell them to (with the white) and killing everyone they meet whenever they feel like it (without the white), so I'm definitely on O'Brien's side in this.

 

[TerragonSix]

Does the Hippocratic Oath have any real world implications? We always see doctors help captured enemies and so forth, but they don't HAVE to do that, do they? It's not like Starfleet Medical comes to Bashir and fires him because he didn't help a dying Jem'Hadar.

Yes it does. For example, if a Doctor sees a car crash happen in front of him and does not stop to help, they can be in serious shit. How probable is it that they would be caught? Basically impossible.

Some doctors do, and some don't. Some nurses do, and don't. Even off-duty paramedics do and don't.

Personally, even though my license has lapsed, I've always stopped to render assistance. Because I take my oath seriously.

As for doctors treating captured enemy soldiers, the Geneva Convention covers that.

 

[JarodRussell]

But EVERYONE who doesn't stop to help in such a situation gets into trouble, not only doctors.

 

[Dragoniguana]

Except, of course, "free" Jem'Hadar are equally likely to go on a rampage against the Federation as they are likely to be grateful. O'Brien pointed out that at least the Founders kept them on a short leash (his exact words, IIRC). And who is to say that free Jem'Hadar wouldn't still choose to serve the Dominion? The white addiction seemed more like a way for the Vorta to handle the Jem'Hadar, since they would otherwise probably be ignored by the soldiers.

Exactly. The Jem'Hadar are literally built to be nothing more than killers. Killing is all they do - it's all they can ever do.

There can be only two choices: the Jem'Hadar killing only who the Founders tell them to (with the white) and killing everyone they meet whenever they feel like it (without the white), so I'm definitely on O'Brien's side in this.

However, we saw with Goran'Agar that being off ketracel white made him much less violent and less willing to kill. It's likely that, had the entire Jem'Hadar population been released from the drug's hold, they'd have become more peaceful people, or maybe even staged a revolt against the Founders. No matter the potential outcome, I do infer from the episode that even if it had been that small band that was freed, they probably would have just kept to themselves on that planet rather than do what O'Brien feared and rampage without any control.

 

[TerragonSix]

But EVERYONE who doesn't stop to help in such a situation gets into trouble, not only doctors.

Not necessarily. A layman has no obligation to provide medical care. Sure, there are Good Samaritan laws to entice people to do so (too many people are afraid to get sued, which is why some medical personnel don't stop), but prosecuting a 30 year old tax collector because she didn't want to be involved with bloody bodies or a drunk that wrecked his car in the middle of the night and is trying to wave her down.

 

[Tosk]

Isn't the oath basically just to do no harm though? And even then, you're not bound to take the oath to practice medicine. And even then, the oath is not legally binding in any way. It's basically just the honor system, a symbolic gesture. Or am I wrong?

 

[WarpCore]

Isn't the oath basically just to do no harm though? And even then, you're not bound to take the oath to practice medicine. And even then, the oath is not legally binding in any way. It's basically just the honor system, a symbolic gesture. Or am I wrong?

Correct on the latter parts. It's little more than a guilt-trip-booby-trap being set to act as guidelines for an ethical code. It's either broken millions of times every year considering it would categorize assisted suicide and abortions as "doing harm" or doctors' oaths aren't the Hippocratic Oath but an edited version with considerably different ethical standards. The term "Hippocratic Oath" has been made a generic term and today has little use other than film and tv.

Hell, if one were to pledge the classical version of the oath verbatim, they would be swearing to polytheistic pagan gods that medical school shall remain free but only available to others willing to pledge to the same gods to keep their craft secret. It was possibly the first trade union ever created. Originally 2500 years ago, you were bound to take the oath to learn medicine, not even to practice. Oh, and you had to be male. There is a little more to it than "do no harm." I don't think Bashir ever took that oath.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

, we saw with Goran'Agar that being off ketracel white made him much less violent and less willing to kill. It's likely that, had the entire Jem'Hadar population been released from the drug's hold, they'd have become more peaceful people, or maybe even staged a revolt against the Founders. No matter the potential outcome, I do infer from the episode that even if it had been that small band that was freed, they probably would have just kept to themselves on that planet rather than do what O'Brien feared and rampage without any control.

Goran'Agar was unique. A mutant. He's the only one of his kind. You'll notice that when his men started going through white withdrawal, they became insane and violent...so the odds that there would ever be another like Goran'Agar are quite vanishingly small.

 

[JarodRussell]

Isn't the oath basically just to do no harm though? And even then, you're not bound to take the oath to practice medicine. And even then, the oath is not legally binding in any way. It's basically just the honor system, a symbolic gesture. Or am I wrong?

Legally binding! That was the term I was looking for.

 

[WesleysDisciple]

, we saw with Goran'Agar that being off ketracel white made him much less violent and less willing to kill. It's likely that, had the entire Jem'Hadar population been released from the drug's hold, they'd have become more peaceful people, or maybe even staged a revolt against the Founders. No matter the potential outcome, I do infer from the episode that even if it had been that small band that was freed, they probably would have just kept to themselves on that planet rather than do what O'Brien feared and rampage without any control.

Goran'Agar was unique. A mutant. He's the only one of his kind. You'll notice that when his men started going through white withdrawal, they became insane and violent...so the odds that there would ever be another like Goran'Agar are quite vanishingly small.

The doctor DOES suggest that, it doesnt out and out STATE that however...

If they found a way to cure them its possible they'd have become less aggressive...