Hey, I never noticed that before....

Discussion in 'Star Trek - The Original & Animated Series' started by Warped9, Aug 1, 2015.

  1. FormerLurker

    FormerLurker Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    CorporalCaptain uses more accurate terminology, but this is the idea I had in my earlier post. The dressier uniform she wore in the trial is her 'work' uniform, the one she wears as a prosecutor, and her actual dress uniform is a different, albeit similarly styled, outfit reserved for parties and ceremonies, that has her awards and commendations on it.

    In the earlier scene where she meets Kirk at the bar, she's wearing a regular uniform, which she wears again aboard the Enterprise. The character of Areel Shaw wears many hats, it seems.
     
  2. GNDN18

    GNDN18 270 Rear Admiral

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    According to Kirk at Spock's preliminary hearing , "A mutiny requires a trial board of no less than three command officers." First, Spock is not a commanding officer, yet his trial board must consist of at least three of that rank. You will say that "culpable negligence" is (probably) not a capital offense and perhaps that rule doesn't apply. It seems likely, though, that the rule would obtain all general courts-martial. Not having a copy of the applicable Articles of War at hand, I leave it to you to decide.

    Especially when you consider that the hearing was delayed some little time because "the officers who will comprise my court-martial board [were] proceeding to Starbase Eleven." This is curious, as there were several ships berthed at that base, yet one or more officers had to fly in. Given the seemingly in-bred nature of the ensigns of command, I don't doubt that Stone would have to reach out as far as the Benecia colony to find a skipper that didn't know Kirk. Which, incidentally, that might be why a Sciences/Medical captain was called in. This dearth of unconflicted officers, too, might account for an even-numbered trial board.*

    This argument about the ranks, though, is resolved by Stone's introduction of the trial board: "I have appointed as members of this court Space Command Representative Lindstrom (avocado), Starship Captains Krasnovsky (blue) and Chandra (avocado). Lindstrom of the ambiguous title has the same piping as the other board members save Commodore Portmaster Stone. This is not surprising because I'm pretty sure that the green silks were fitted for Shatner, a starship captain.

    _____
    * JI gets caught up by a round turn here thinking he can pull rank on a two-member trial board.
    [​IMG]
    RHIP? Take that, Commodore!
    [​IMG]
     
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  3. Neopeius

    Neopeius Admiral Admiral

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    So, what is Krasnovsky's current assignment?

    His actor is almost 54 at the time, which is on the elderly side for an O6, but I don't think it's unheard of.

    Options:

    1) He's in his last years of a five-year mission (does a blue-shirted Starship skipper fly a different kind of Starship? A different missioned Starship? Or does it simply reflect his main background, and Spock will be wearing blue when he gets his own ship?)

    2) He's retired and was called back from the reserves, his last assignment having been something science-based?

    3) ??? :)

    It would have been nice if Lindstrom had been the one wearing blue -- if blue is a staff officer, it makes sense a "Space Command Representative" might wear blue. But it's not. It's Krasnovsky.
     
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  4. Commishsleer

    Commishsleer Commodore Commodore

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    So what happened in the (Kangaroo) Court in Turnabout Intruder? Spock had two on the jury who were below his rank and someone he had conflicts with all the time. And then Kirk/Lester overruled it anyway. I suppose because it was a MUTINY a Starship Captain might have special powers but Chekov said No.

    Ah Spock committing mutiny twice although I doubt Turnabout Intruder with Spock's passive resistance would be considered a mutiny by anyone who wasn't insane or some idiot redshirts.
     
  5. Neopeius

    Neopeius Admiral Admiral

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    Yeah, I think TI was special circumstances. And may well have not held up when they got back to base.
     
  6. Laura Cynthia Chambers

    Laura Cynthia Chambers Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I would think Starfleet would have similar honors for non-combat roles (for winning an appeal, successfully pleading an unpopular case, etc)
     
  7. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    One would imagine regulations apply differently when not at a starbase.
     
  8. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I just need to correct this.

    In the bar, she's completely out of uniform:
    https://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/1x20/Court_Martial_049.JPG
    https://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/1x20/Court_Martial_077.JPG

    On the ship, she's still wearing the dressy uniform she wore in court on the planet surface:
    https://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/1x20/Court_Martial_349.JPG
    https://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/1x20/Court_Martial_384.JPG
    https://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/1x20/Court_Martial_495.JPG
    https://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/1x20/Court_Martial_509.JPG
    https://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/1x20/Court_Martial_512.JPG

    And while she's sitting on the bridge, you can see the extra length of the lower hem in her lap:
    https://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/1x20/Court_Martial_357.JPG
    https://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/1x20/Court_Martial_366.JPG
     
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  9. ZapBrannigan

    ZapBrannigan Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    "...and I was awarded this medal for getting a serial killer off on a technicality!"
     
  10. FormerLurker

    FormerLurker Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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  11. Neopeius

    Neopeius Admiral Admiral

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  12. Commishsleer

    Commishsleer Commodore Commodore

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    Did we ever see that that long uniform again?
    We never saw a woman's dress uniform, did we? Could that uniform be a woman's dress uniform?
     
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  13. J.T.B.

    J.T.B. Rear Admiral Premium Member

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    Military organizations have often had dressy uniforms that are optional, or only required at a certain rank. Of course, this is to limit expense to the individual; we don't know if Starfleet officers pay for their own uniforms. When they had a formal dinner "Space Seed," only the senior officers had dress uniforms.

    "Mufti" means civilian clothes.

    Just as in a civilian trial, it's hard to get a court-martial jury that has exactly the same life experience as the accused. Military courts usually build in another step that the court/jury members are the same grade as the accused or higher, so there is no question of influence from rank.

    It's even more curious since the members of the court were already shown walking around the club in their dress uniforms!

    I think that's most likely. It's not completely satisfactory, since the male uniforms don't use the sleeve rank, but I guess it's possible that the design of the female uniform did not allow for the rank indications (such as they were) from the male jackets. In real life, BTW, the last few years have seen US armed forces eliminating or minimizing differences between male and female uniforms; for instance USN females now wear the "choker collar" dress whites with shoulder boards, and a standardized visor cap.

    My take on possible rank representation on the (male) dress uniform. tos_dress_jacket_ranks.png
     
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  14. GNDN18

    GNDN18 270 Rear Admiral

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    That’s an excellent observation. As I understand it, the episode was edited in a different order than scripted so as to end the act with Kirk passionately demanding court-martial. Consequently, he changed tunics a couple of times, while somebody at Starbase Operations failed to note that the trial board—ready to go in full dress uniform, no less—are loitering about the O-club.
     
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  15. Henoch

    Henoch Rear Admiral Premium Member

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    This works for Commodore Stone, but in The Menagerie, Commodore Mendez's uniform doesn't match what's seen above, rather it's just the same as Captain:
    https://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x11hd/themenageriepart1hd595.jpg
    (Possible in-universe reason: Mendez didn't pack a bag, so, he borrowed an extra dress uniform from Kirk and was able to change the service pins.)
     
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  16. J.T.B.

    J.T.B. Rear Admiral Premium Member

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    Right. I assume they just reused the costume from Linstrom or Chandra.

    OTOH if the uniform section can whip up a Waffen SS doctor/colonel uniform in a few minutes they ought to be able to come up with a Starfleet uniform with the correct rank!
     
  17. Neopeius

    Neopeius Admiral Admiral

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    The magical Hogan's Heroes wardrobe machine didn't get installed until Season 2...
     
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  18. Tenacity

    Tenacity Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Spock wasn't a command officer?
     
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  19. Doug Otte

    Doug Otte Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I don't have anything to add to everyone's fascinating responses to your comments. I just want to thank you for prompting me to watch the episode again. I hadn't seen Court Martial for 2 years or so. It's refreshing to revisit these episodes after trying to enjoy the watered-down current Trek.
     
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  20. J.T.B.

    J.T.B. Rear Admiral Premium Member

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    I have some issues with "Court Martial," but for an inside-Starfleet info dump it looms very large.