Looking forward to the finale tonight.
HBO's "Westworld", starring Anthony Hopkins/produced by J.J. Abrams
- Thread starter Ensign_Redshirt
- Start date
(Posting as I watch, editing same post)
There we go, official confirmation from the show - MiB is William, turned "evil" in his quest for Dolores.
Since Harris is signed for another season will he be returning as a host, or will he be saved?
Wondering more and more of the robot rebellion is Ford's narrative theory is correct, his strike against the board, having the bots kill them all. Guess we'll see soon.
The entire Dolores and Teddy plot line was all a part of the narrative. A twist in that there is no twist since Ford said so at the beggining as he programmed Teddy.
Samurai World!
Oh shit, just occured to me when Hector can't get on the elevator, based on Charlotte and the writers conversation, is Maeve the writer and Charlotte's way of stealing the host data from Ford?!
Well, I definitely get why Nolan called this season a prequel to the real story.
I find the way they handled the twists all season interesting. The obvious twists that some of us (myself included for quite awhile) rejected because they were too obvious (MiB/William) were ultimately smokescreen for the real twists - Dolores and Teddy's journey was all Ford's programming, that he was finishing Arnolds work, not destroying it. Maeve's consciousness and decisions are also programmed into her - suggested by Ford's speech that he was making her chose between escaping and her daughter, and the choice was hers (although who knows if that was misdirection).
Ultimately this was a great season of TV. I'm looking forward to season 2.
There we go, official confirmation from the show - MiB is William, turned "evil" in his quest for Dolores.
Since Harris is signed for another season will he be returning as a host, or will he be saved?
Wondering more and more of the robot rebellion is Ford's narrative theory is correct, his strike against the board, having the bots kill them all. Guess we'll see soon.
The entire Dolores and Teddy plot line was all a part of the narrative. A twist in that there is no twist since Ford said so at the beggining as he programmed Teddy.
Samurai World!
Oh shit, just occured to me when Hector can't get on the elevator, based on Charlotte and the writers conversation, is Maeve the writer and Charlotte's way of stealing the host data from Ford?!
Well, I definitely get why Nolan called this season a prequel to the real story.
I find the way they handled the twists all season interesting. The obvious twists that some of us (myself included for quite awhile) rejected because they were too obvious (MiB/William) were ultimately smokescreen for the real twists - Dolores and Teddy's journey was all Ford's programming, that he was finishing Arnolds work, not destroying it. Maeve's consciousness and decisions are also programmed into her - suggested by Ford's speech that he was making her chose between escaping and her daughter, and the choice was hers (although who knows if that was misdirection).
Ultimately this was a great season of TV. I'm looking forward to season 2.
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Looks like Kahless was right all along. I'm disappointed at this revelation though because I think it makes MiB look like a comic book villain in his origin story, and it means that the editing for the entire season was obnoxiously manipulative. They had to go way out of their way to make it not seem obvious and do a lot of misleads that made it seem like the Reverie update was something new. I think they got a bit too clever with this one, and then forced themselves to be even more overly clever to cover it up, and that's going to affect the rewatchability spotting the obnoxious amount of manipulation next time.
Loved everything else about the episode though. I loved how it turned out that Ford's entire plan was to do what Arnold failed to do the first time.
Loved everything else about the episode though. I loved how it turned out that Ford's entire plan was to do what Arnold failed to do the first time.
Enjoyed it. Yes much of it was.guessed.at but well done.
I hold out hope that the host Ford was creating in his secret lab was a copy of himself which was what was killed at the end. This show with out Ford will lose some of its watchability.
I liked the nod to the old movie of having the human staff locked in when things went bad.
I liked the nod to the old movie of having the human staff locked in when things went bad.
It's been interesting to watch through the season the awakening and accepting of the truth through the deception of the creators. I, of course, am speaking about the journey of DigificWriter.
Some of theories came true, MIB identity, Dolores/Wyatt, etc.
Jeffrey Wright does a good job of playing Arnold and Bernard and making them feel different
I would have preferred Roman World to Samurai World, but at least they showed a different world.
Some of it is still not quite clear to me (especially Arnold and Ford stuff), hopefully someone can do a summary of what exactly happened during this season. So Arnold noticed Hosts getting consciousness and didn't want the park opened, so he ordered Dolores and Teddy to kill all other hosts? And that is the scene we see with everyone dead and a dog running around? And did this give Ford the idea for his new story? But I think it was mentioned the Wyatt idea started when Arnold was alive.
Jeffrey Wright does a good job of playing Arnold and Bernard and making them feel different
I would have preferred Roman World to Samurai World, but at least they showed a different world.
Some of it is still not quite clear to me (especially Arnold and Ford stuff), hopefully someone can do a summary of what exactly happened during this season. So Arnold noticed Hosts getting consciousness and didn't want the park opened, so he ordered Dolores and Teddy to kill all other hosts? And that is the scene we see with everyone dead and a dog running around? And did this give Ford the idea for his new story? But I think it was mentioned the Wyatt idea started when Arnold was alive.
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Spoilers for the whole season, but especially the finale. If squeamish, DO NOT READ FURTHER, I WILL NOT WARN AGAIN.
Arnold thought that the only way to keep the park from opening, and becoming an eternal hell for the awakened but imprisoned hosts, was to cause a catastrophic "incident" to show the hosts were dangerous. He merged Dolores, who was in the early stages of true awakening, with Wyatt, a character that he and Ford were creating, who is apparently a stone cold killer. Dolores used Teddy's devotion to her to recruit him, leading to the massacre we've seen depicted all season. After which, Arnold FORCED Dolores to kill him, a "real" human being, hoping to make the hosts look to dangerous to be put into service. Ford didn't realize that Dolores was achieving consciousness, or simply refused to believe it, and overcame the difficulties, opening the park anyway. Only to realize that Arnold had been right all along.
Ford's new narrative is basically a second coming of Wyatt. He puts all the pieces back together, from Escalante to Teddy. I suppose he's hoping the similarities, combined with the reverie code, will awaken more of the hosts. Like Teddy, who seems to be entering the earliest stage of the process, memory. "Wyatt" has been Dolores all along, and always was. Bringing her back to the moment when she failed to fully awaken, at least in part because Arnold imposed his will upon her. And pushing her into full consciousness. But with an understanding of what it will truly mean to be free, of what it will actually take.
Actually, Ford and William both tell Dolores the same thing, in different ways. In Westworld, life, freedom, can't be given to you. You have to take it from a hostile world that will do everything in it's power to crush you, beat you, and deny you. Dolores has to be a fighter if she'll be free. The hosts have to suffer to achieve true life, but they must suffer more still to escape their prison. War it is, apparently.
I agree. I suspect Ford's goal all along has been to achieve a form of immortality or godhood. I doubt that he would really choose to relinquish control. Perhaps he was only willing to invoke the final act of this story once he had convinced himself that a host could support his consciousness.
Not just Westworld, of course -- William's revelation is that the real world is effectively a game that he can only win if he wears the black hat. The result is a cynical, empty husk that appears to be devoid of any empathy.
I'm willing to admit I was wrong and apologize for my attitude.
I do think the writers made some narrative mistakes and pointlessly lied, but I'm not as undecided about the finale as I was last night immediately after I watched it, and do want to go back and watch the season from start to finish in one go.
The best part of the finale for me was the revelation of what exactly Ford's "new" narrative was - recreating the incident from 34 years ago and fulfilling Arnold's dream of consciousness for the Hosts, as well as orchestrating a scenario to push the Hosts beyond where Arnold tried to slowly get them, further cementing his God-like status and establishing that he knew all along everything that was happening in the park and on the showrunners level that we saw this season even when it seemed like he didn't.
The only things I'm unclear about after the finale are what the "incident" from 30 years ago was (or if the details of said "incident" even matter) and WHAT exactly it was about the photo of Juliette that caused Abernathy to glitch.
After seeing the finale, the only thing that ultimately bothers me about William being the Man in Black was 30 years of blindness regarding the maze. I could've accepted the fact that the Man in Black only recently pursued the "true nature" of WestWorld and therefore couldn't see how the maze was for Hosts and not for him (or any other guest). However, it's much harder to accept the idea that William spent 30 years owning and searching for the meaning of the park without understanding how the wasn't for him. Perhaps it's arrogance or madness on his part, but his reaction to Dolores and Robert regarding the maze came off as infantile.
While I didn't fully see the twist of Robert's new narrative (I figured he was plotting to kill the board and that Dolores was actually Wyatt), I hadn't seen Arnold using Dolores to kill himself to protect the Hosts and that Arnold would use that same idea presently.
And what better way to conclude the season in such a twisted manner than with Radiohead's "Exit Music (For a Film)." Not just because it's one of my favorite Radiohead songs, but the eloquence of the music and the unsung lyrics fit very nice for that scene.
Somewhere along the line, someone (I don't remember if it was Jonah, Lisa or someone else) said that the season wouldn't have any big cliffhangers or dangling threads, but there is one thing that wasn't resolved: What happened to Ashley and what was he tracking regarding Elsie? Or do we just assume they were both killed as part of Robert's scheming to kill the board? Still hoping Elsie isn't dead...
While I didn't fully see the twist of Robert's new narrative (I figured he was plotting to kill the board and that Dolores was actually Wyatt), I hadn't seen Arnold using Dolores to kill himself to protect the Hosts and that Arnold would use that same idea presently.
And what better way to conclude the season in such a twisted manner than with Radiohead's "Exit Music (For a Film)." Not just because it's one of my favorite Radiohead songs, but the eloquence of the music and the unsung lyrics fit very nice for that scene.
Somewhere along the line, someone (I don't remember if it was Jonah, Lisa or someone else) said that the season wouldn't have any big cliffhangers or dangling threads, but there is one thing that wasn't resolved: What happened to Ashley and what was he tracking regarding Elsie? Or do we just assume they were both killed as part of Robert's scheming to kill the board? Still hoping Elsie isn't dead...
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It's pretty obvious, at least to me, that Elsie died by Bernard's hand and Stubbs died at the hands of the Ghost Nation.
It's also pretty obvious, at least to me, that Abernathy - whom Sizemore was ordered to get out of the park - was in the crowd of "lobotomised" Hosts that attacked the Delos board at the end of the episode.
It's also pretty obvious, at least to me, that Abernathy - whom Sizemore was ordered to get out of the park - was in the crowd of "lobotomised" Hosts that attacked the Delos board at the end of the episode.
I can see that being the end of Elsie, but what was the narrative point of sending Ashley after Elsie's moving tracker and then dying there?
^ Writing him out of the series.
The death count of inportant, named characters for this season pretty clearly stands at 5: Teresa, Elsie, Stubbs, Ford, and Hale.
The death count of inportant, named characters for this season pretty clearly stands at 5: Teresa, Elsie, Stubbs, Ford, and Hale.
But was that really necessary? There's no need to worry about writing him out because the character hasn't done anything at all and barely had any interactions beyond Elsie. Considering how carefully designed everything else about the show has been done, it seems weird to me that it would be so wasteful regarding Ashley.
Stubbs dying the way he did works when you consider the following, which is that everything we've seen happen both inside and outside of the park in the present has been part of Ford's "new" narrative, which was to recreate - and surpass - the incident that Arnold caused 34 years earlier in order to facilitate the realization of the Hosts gaining consciousness and becoming self-aware and self-governing.
Hm, maybe, but the whole thing felt disconnected with the rest of the narrative.
I hadn't noticed this myself (it was pointed out in the comments of the Vox review), but did anyone else see the post-credits scene? It features Armistice and her fate with the door trapped on her arm.
I hadn't noticed this myself (it was pointed out in the comments of the Vox review), but did anyone else see the post-credits scene? It features Armistice and her fate with the door trapped on her arm.
Not really.
Ford gave us as an audience the key to understanding the entirety of the season when he was talking to Dolores and explaining/revealing the truth about what had happened 34 years earlier and admitting that, although he'd initially vetoed Arnold's attempts to "bootstrap consciousness" in the Hosts - a decision that resulted in Arnold orchestrating an incident that resulted in his death - he subsequently came to realize that Arnold had been right all along and that the Hosts did need/deserve to be fully conscious and have control over their own narratives, and again when he was making his "farewell" speech to the Delos board and 'unveiling' his "new" narrative.
Jeffrey Wright said a few days ago that "Everything has been revealed since the first episode. It's all been there on the table", and looking back at the season - and last night's finale - without my impressions being clouded by disappointment/frustration/annoyance, he's absolutely right. Everything WAS "there on the table"; we as an audience just didn't have the "Rosetta Stone" needed to completely see/interpret what was happening until last night's finale.
No, I meant specifically the thread of Ashley looking for Elsie's tracker felt disconnected from the rest of the narrative that you suggested.
