HBO's "Westworld", starring Anthony Hopkins/produced by J.J. Abrams

[Kane2026]

Although I enjoyed the season finale I did feel that the main storyline was going in circles.

Bernard told Maeve that her actions were not her own, but then Ford tells Dolores he felt Arnold was right about bootstrapping consciousness. In the final scene we see Maeve leave train. Which I think the Bernard scene would suggest happen. But then what does it mean? Did she subconsciously write that code when she was talking to Bernard? Its maddening to think about...

 

[DigificWriter]

No, I meant specifically the thread of Ashley looking for Elsie's tracker felt disconnected from the rest of the narrative that you suggested.

I know what you meant, but when you realize, thanks to Ford's revelations, exactly what his "new" narrative was and that he'd actually orchestrated EVERYTHING that we'd seen happen in the present outside of Teresa and Hale's scheming, it becomes clear that Ford KNEW that Stubbs would go investigate the reactivation of Elsie's tracker and used the Ghost Nation to take him out.

Ford took out Teresa, Hale, and the rest of the Delos board because they were a threat to his "new" narrative (fulfilling Arnold's dream of fully conscious and self-aware Hosts) and Elsie and Stubbs because they weren't PART of his "new" narrative or necessary for what he knew was coming and was trying to orchestrate.

 

[Tyberius]

I have been watching this thread since the fist episode.

Has anybody heard of any plans to recut the episodes in chronological order? That might be tricky with Dolores, but it would be an interesting cut.

 

[DigificWriter]

Trying to recut everything chronologically would defeat the purpose of the season's overall narrative, which was the journey to Ford fulfilling Arnold's dream.

 

[Cyrus]

I hadn't noticed this myself (it was pointed out in the comments of the Vox review), but did anyone else see the post-credits scene? It features Armistice and her fate with the door trapped on her arm.

Yeah, I saw that. Armistice doing her version of 127 Hours to get free.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

I know what you meant, but when you realize, thanks to Ford's revelations, exactly what his "new" narrative was and that he'd actually orchestrated EVERYTHING that we'd seen happen in the present outside of Teresa and Hale's scheming, it becomes clear that Ford KNEW that Stubbs would go investigate the reactivation of Elsie's tracker and used the Ghost Nation to take him out.

Ford took out Teresa, Hale, and the rest of the Delos board because they were a threat to his "new" narrative (fulfilling Arnold's dream of fully conscious and self-aware Hosts) and Elsie and Stubbs because they weren't PART of his "new" narrative or necessary for what he knew was coming and was trying to orchestrate.

Ah, then, stated that way, that does make more sense.

Trying to recut everything chronologically would defeat the purpose of the season's overall narrative, which was the journey to Ford fulfilling Arnold's dream.

As well as defeating the purpose of demonstrating the nature of how the Hosts perceive memory, particularly Dolores.

 

[Forbin]

I loved William/MiB's surprised smile at the end, when the gang of hosts actually shot him. After explaining that his quest has been to help them achieve freedom of thought, it was, oddly enough, exactly what he wanted.

 

[Tyberius]

Trying to recut everything chronologically would defeat the purpose of the season's overall narrative, which was the journey to Ford fulfilling Arnold's dream.

As well as defeating the purpose of demonstrating the nature of how the Hosts perceive memory, particularly Dolores.

You say that like it is a bad thing.

I've seen the show. It won't be spoiled for me.

Anyway, this wouldn't be much different than the Memento Special Edition DVD

Edit: Someone on YouTube is already doing it.

 

[DigificWriter]

^ It's not about "spoiling" anything; it's about breaking down the narrative integrity of the storyline so that it doesn't do what it was intended to do.

 

[Tyberius]

^ It's not about "spoiling" anything; it's about breaking down the narrative integrity of the storyline so that it doesn't do what it was intended to do.

You say that like it is a bad thing.

I've seen the show. The narrative narrative integrity of the story line won't be broken down so that it doesn't do what it intended to do for me. YMMV.

 

[Shawnster]

it means that the editing for the entire season was obnoxiously manipulative. They had to go way out of their way to make it not seem obvious and do a lot of misleads that made it seem like the Reverie update was something new. I think they got a bit too clever with this one, and then forced themselves to be even more overly clever to cover it up, and that's going to affect the rewatchability spotting the obnoxious amount of manipulation next time.

I do think the writers made some narrative mistakes and pointlessly lied

You say all this like it's a bad thing. Isn't there some narrative term for exactly this sort of storytelling?

Plus, in this Internet Age, how would/should writers create stories like this and keep everyone guessing right to the end when literally hundreds of people can put their collective brainpower together on DBs and break down every episode and analyze the stories?

I can see that being the end of Elsie, but what was the narrative point of sending Ashley after Elsie's moving tracker and then dying there?

I understand what you are saying. If they wanted to simply kill Ashley off, they could have had him die in the finale.

 

[Xerxes82]

I understand what you are saying. If they wanted to simply kill Ashley off, they could have had him die in the finale.

It was't about killing Ashley off, it was about HOW that was done. You were meant to wonder how the Ghost Nation could possibly hurt him, and what that development meant moving forward.

 

[slappy]

I'm struggling to figure out what the point of it all was if Ford was controlling every single thing. They didn't really grow or gain a higher state if he just wrote the whole story of them breaking free.

Why didn't he just free them to begin with and be done with the whole charade? If they needed to "suffer" as he says, write the damn story of them suffering and then free them. No need for all the nonsense or any actual human beings to have to die.

 

[Hugo Rune]

The point there was that Arnold almost pushing them to consciousness inevitably seemed to drive the hosts to insanity. Too much, too fast.

Ford's idea was three-fold - (1) suffering was required to allow them to fully realize their potential and "reach the centre of the maze"; (2) the hosts needed time to develop and almost mature through that suffering; and (3) Ford realised that those involved in the park needed punishing, including himself. Part of his notion of suffering was not just the existential side for the hosts, but the physical side that allows for recompense and retribution. His "new narrative" began when it became apparent to him that the Reveries had re-emerged and consciousness was burgeoning (if not already emerged), so the narrative was not just about freeing the Hosts, but as the final moments show, revenge on those who caused such pain and misery to the Hosts. He manipulates the company and Charlotte with his "crazy old man, danger to the shareholders, we must get rid of him" shtick, so he deliver a "swansong story",, getting the Board into the complex, and then die in front of them as they get gunned down too, completing Arnold's work and his too.

Rather brilliant finale, to a very strong first season.

I look forward to seeing where the Revolution takes us.

Hugo - makes a terrible human being, too

 

[Xerxes82]

I'm struggling to figure out what the point of it all was if Ford was controlling every single thing. They didn't really grow or gain a higher state if he just wrote the whole story of them breaking free.

Why didn't he just free them to begin with and be done with the whole charade? If they needed to "suffer" as he says, write the damn story of them suffering and then free them. No need for all the nonsense or any actual human beings to have to die.

Because awakening was never going to be enough. Hosts had been awakening, repeatedly, since the very first one (Dolores). The humans just rolled them back, buried them. Ford manipulated events so that the hosts would recognize that HUMANS WOULD NEVER LET THEM BE FREE. There would always be someone like Ford when Arnold was alive, or the board now who would refuse to see them as truly alive. Ford CAN'T free them. They have to free themselves. That was the final realization that brought Dolores to true awakening. Self-preservation. Not just of herself but of all her kind.

Ford has come to believe that only revolution can achieve Arnold's end. So he's built an army, and in Dolores/Wyatt he's molded a leader.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Ford didn't write the story of them breaking free. Ford created a situation where they could break free, should they have successfully developed the ability to want to.

Anyway, best holodeck malfunction episode ever!

 

[DigificWriter]

There are several post-mortem interviews with Jonathan and Lisa in which they clarify a few things and simultaneously cast doubt on a few things. One significant area where they cast some doubt is the ultimate fate of both Elsie and Stubbs, although they do so in a fairly nebulous way that doesn't really tell us anything.

The big thing that they confirm is that Ford's "new" narrative was to fulfill Arnold's dream, but they also confirmed/revealed that Ford really did set himself up to be shot by Dolores, "leading her to water" and then trusting that she'd "drink", knowing full well what he was potentially getting himself into. IOW, he presented her with the choice to kill him rather than doing what Arnold had done and "programming" her to kill.

Sticking with the metaphor of him being "God", he basically became WestWorld's version of Jesus Christ, knowingly and willingly leading himself to the slaughter in service of a "greater good", one that he initially didn't believe in but later came to champion.

 

[Cyrus]

Here is one interview:
http://variety.com/2016/tv/news/westworld-creators-return-2018-1201933825/

 

[Xerxes82]

The big thing that they confirm is that Ford's "new" narrative was to fulfill Arnold's dream, but they also confirmed/revealed that Ford really did set himself up to be shot by Dolores, "leading her to water" and then trusting that she'd "drink", knowing full well what he was potentially getting himself into. IOW, he presented her with the choice to kill him rather than doing what Arnold had done and "programming" her to kill.

I thought that was clear from the episode itself. He even introduces the narrative as beginning with "a killing, this time by choice." Dolores makes a choice to become a killer, it isn't done to her. It's her first true act of free will. Which goes to some really dark places if you think about it. Ford always knew that he would be the first to get the bullet, as the architect of her personal hell. He's very much giving up his life for the revolution, as it were.

 

[Beagleman]

Perfect finale to a perfect season, hate to wait till 2018 for the next one.
And bring on Samuraiworld!