Have You Even Known Someone Who Committed Suicide?

[RJDiogenes]

It isn't a question of forgiving somebody who has committed suicide; somebody who takes his own life because of overwhelming psychological pain doesn't need to be forgiven. Calling them selfish or cowardly is what needs to be forgiven.

And certainly every Human Being has the Right to do whatever he wants with his own life, as long as he is of sound mind; but anybody who wants to commit suicide, unless terminally ill, is not of sound mind.

One of my friends committed suicide on memorial day weekend.

Sorry to hear that, Kaijufan. My condolences.

 

[Hermiod]

It isn't a question of forgiving somebody who has committed suicide; somebody who takes his own life because of overwhelming psychological pain doesn't need to be forgiven. Calling them selfish or cowardly is what needs to be forgiven.

And certainly every Human Being has the Right to do whatever he wants with his own life, as long as he is of sound mind; but anybody who wants to commit suicide, unless terminally ill, is not of sound mind.

I strongly disagree with that. I firmly believe that it is entirely possible for a person to come to the perfectly logical conclusion that ending their own life is the best course of action and still be "of sound mind".

 

[Jono]

Back in 1995 one of my mum's closest friends killed herself, running car in the garage method. She had two daughters, both still in school, and she was also in a long term relationship at the time as well.

Fortunately I haven't had any of my friends commit suicide.

A guy I'd talked with a couple of times through the uni network committed suicide the year after I moved off college, but that's it.

 

[Jayson]

It isn't a question of forgiving somebody who has committed suicide; somebody who takes his own life because of overwhelming psychological pain doesn't need to be forgiven. Calling them selfish or cowardly is what needs to be forgiven.

And certainly every Human Being has the Right to do whatever he wants with his own life, as long as he is of sound mind; but anybody who wants to commit suicide, unless terminally ill, is not of sound mind.

One of my friends committed suicide on memorial day weekend.

Sorry to hear that, Kaijufan. My condolences.

How do we define "sound mind"? We know mental illness counts but I think alot of suicide comes from emotional trama. Granted I think all humans go through trama. Everyone has emotional crisis that are hard to handle. Some simply handle them better than others and others like me, when I was thinking about suicide didn't see the point. I was judging my emotional pain up agaisnt the odds of me having the necessary skills to improve my life. I am still on the fence about that. Just because I am kind and capable love doesn't mean I will make a good boyfriend/husband.

That is what people don't get about suicide. People who kill themselves aren't doing it just to end their pain. It is them basically taking stock of their life and passing judgment on themselves.

Jason

 

[RJDiogenes]

I strongly disagree with that. I firmly believe that it is entirely possible for a person to come to the perfectly logical conclusion that ending their own life is the best course of action and still be "of sound mind".

Unless, as I said, they are suffering from an incurable illness, I don't see how ending their own life can be the best course of action.

How do we define "sound mind"? We know mental illness counts but I think alot of suicide comes from emotional trama. Granted I think all humans go through trama. Everyone has emotional crisis that are hard to handle. Some simply handle them better than others and others like me, when I was thinking about suicide didn't see the point. I was judging my emotional pain up agaisnt the odds of me having the necessary skills to improve my life. I am still on the fence about that. Just because I am kind and capable love doesn't mean I will make a good boyfriend/husband.

That is what people don't get about suicide. People who kill themselves aren't doing it just to end their pain. It is them basically taking stock of their life and passing judgment on themselves.

If somebody has suffered such emotional trauma that they want to kill themselves, they are not of sound mind. If somebody is so depressed or so hateful of themselves that they want to take their own life, they are not of sound mind. The circumstance of terminal illness aside, being suicidal is about as opposite of sound mind as one can get.

And, of course, I don't say this to be insulting to anybody. Mental illness is just like any other illness, whether it's heart disease or cancer or diverticulitis; it's nothing to be ashamed of, but it is definitely something that should be treated, not indulged.

 

[Jayson]

I strongly disagree with that. I firmly believe that it is entirely possible for a person to come to the perfectly logical conclusion that ending their own life is the best course of action and still be "of sound mind".

Unless, as I said, they are suffering from an incurable illness, I don't see how ending their own life can be the best course of action.

How do we define "sound mind"? We know mental illness counts but I think alot of suicide comes from emotional trama. Granted I think all humans go through trama. Everyone has emotional crisis that are hard to handle. Some simply handle them better than others and others like me, when I was thinking about suicide didn't see the point. I was judging my emotional pain up agaisnt the odds of me having the necessary skills to improve my life. I am still on the fence about that. Just because I am kind and capable love doesn't mean I will make a good boyfriend/husband.

That is what people don't get about suicide. People who kill themselves aren't doing it just to end their pain. It is them basically taking stock of their life and passing judgment on themselves.

If somebody has suffered such emotional trauma that they want to kill themselves, they are not of sound mind. If somebody is so depressed or so hateful of themselves that they want to take their own life, they are not of sound mind. The circumstance of terminal illness aside, being suicidal is about as opposite of sound mind as one can get.

And, of course, I don't say this to be insulting to anybody. Mental illness is just like any other illness, whether it's heart disease or cancer or diverticulitis; it's nothing to be ashamed of, but it is definitely something that should be treated, not indulged.

The problem though is this means all humans are mentally ill. To me it isn't about the trama so much as the fact that humans deal with trama in different ways. Some turn to crime and others kill themselves and others finds ways to try and rise above it. To me this isn't mental illness. That is basically being human. That's why you will never be able to cure suicide as a affliction. Basically everyone can be pushed to a breaking point where they might do it.

Jason

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

It isn't a question of forgiving somebody who has committed suicide...

For an enormous percentage of survivors, especially children, that is exactly the question. Suggesting that those feelings are unworthy doesn't make it one jot less true.

 

[The Boy Who Cried Worf]

I do think someone can make a rational decision that they are simply incapable of improving their lot in life. That they don't have the requisite tools or strength of personality that others do.

As I have said before though I also think that one effective tool in combating suicidal ideation is to recognize the finiteness of life. Then try to treat your life as an experiment in exactly what is possible for a human to do. How far can you go in changing your life and what are its limitations? I am not saying it is easy, the fact that I am still suicidal is proof of that, but that in itself is part of the process.

 

[RJDiogenes]

The problem though is this means all humans are mentally ill. To me it isn't about the trama so much as the fact that humans deal with trama in different ways. Some turn to crime and others kill themselves and others finds ways to try and rise above it. To me this isn't mental illness. That is basically being human. That's why you will never be able to cure suicide as a affliction. Basically everyone can be pushed to a breaking point where they might do it.

Mental health and illness aren't binary conditions; there's a wide, finely graduated, spectrum. People may commit suicide, attempt suicide, engage in risk-taking behavior, cut themselves or just pierce themselves until they look like Borg. Terms like mentally ill or emotionally unbalanced or whatever probably can apply to everyone at one time or another, just like everybody can be physically ill from time to time; sometimes the conditions are benign enough to pass on their own and sometimes they require attention. The desire for self-destruction is definitely something that requires serious treatment.

For an enormous percentage of survivors, especially children, that is exactly the question. Suggesting that those feelings are unworthy doesn't make it one jot less true.

I never said it wasn't true; undoubtedly, it's the norm. But that's the selfish behavior. Children usually feel anger toward parents that die under any circumstances because, being children, they're childish. Adults should be able to do better than that.

 

[ManaByte]

An ex-roommate of mine shot himself after fatally shooting his wife on January 12th of this year.

 

[Hermiod]

I strongly disagree with that. I firmly believe that it is entirely possible for a person to come to the perfectly logical conclusion that ending their own life is the best course of action and still be "of sound mind".

Unless, as I said, they are suffering from an incurable illness, I don't see how ending their own life can be the best course of action.

That's not your decision to make. A person's life is their own to do with what they please.

 

[Bob The Skutter]

I strongly disagree with that. I firmly believe that it is entirely possible for a person to come to the perfectly logical conclusion that ending their own life is the best course of action and still be "of sound mind".

Unless, as I said, they are suffering from an incurable illness, I don't see how ending their own life can be the best course of action.

That's not your decision to make. A person's life is their own to do with what they please.

I agree with Hermiod, whether you agree or not some people have a logical reason (in their own mind) for why it would be the best thing, and they don't necessarily need to be out of their mind to come to that decision.

 

[An Officer]

Never, thankfully. That would be a terrible experience.

 

[SicOne]

Unless, as I said, they are suffering from an incurable illness, I don't see how ending their own life can be the best course of action.

That's not your decision to make. A person's life is their own to do with what they please.

I agree with Hermiod, whether you agree or not some people have a logical reason (in their own mind) for why it would be the best thing, and they don't necessarily need to be out of their mind to come to that decision.

Hell, it might just be only being old and infirm, tired, knowing it's not going to get any better, and not wanting (or having) anyone to depend on. I know my kids would probably wipe my ass for me, if I was to physically degenerate to that point, but I wouldn't WANT them to have to do that for me. And I've never seen an affordable nursing home that was not just a warehouse full of people waiting to die.

No, when I reach that point, hopefully having lived a good and quality life, let me check out in a manner of my own choosing, and see what lies beyond.

 

[Bob The Skutter]

That's not your decision to make. A person's life is their own to do with what they please.

I agree with Hermiod, whether you agree or not some people have a logical reason (in their own mind) for why it would be the best thing, and they don't necessarily need to be out of their mind to come to that decision.

Hell, it might just be only being old and infirm, tired, knowing it's not going to get any better, and not wanting (or having) anyone to depend on. I know my kids would probably wipe my ass for me, if I was to physically degenerate to that point, but I wouldn't WANT them to have to do that for me. And I've never seen an affordable nursing home that was not just a warehouse full of people waiting to die.

No, when I reach that point, hopefully having lived a good and quality life, let me check out in a manner of my own choosing, and see what lies beyond.

Exactly, it might not be nice but some people don't have family, or don't want to burden family, and whether it's disability or infirmity from age, or other non-terminal health problems that they feel lowers their quality of life to an unacceptable level and would prefer to die than live life that way.

Of course it doesn't just have to be medical reasons, but I think there are some reasons why suicide would be a preferable option to some people. Not that I'm saying it should be people's first course of action as soon as hard times appear in their lives, but I don't see why it can't be a rational decision people can make...

 

[RJDiogenes]

Unless, as I said, they are suffering from an incurable illness, I don't see how ending their own life can be the best course of action.

That's not your decision to make. A person's life is their own to do with what they please.

I agree with Hermiod, whether you agree or not some people have a logical reason (in their own mind) for why it would be the best thing, and they don't necessarily need to be out of their mind to come to that decision.

Anything can seem logical to an unbalanced mind. A person's life is their own to do with as they please, certainly, as long as they are of sound mind; being suicidal is not of sound mind. Give me an example of a logical decision to kill yourself.

 

[Hermiod]

^To resolve financial difficulties for your family, to escape a long prison sentence, to end your own suffering during a prolonged, incurable illness - or, quite frankly, because you simply view your own life as being incapable of becoming any better.

I personally believe that purposefully allowing yourself to suffer through living a life of misery is far more a sign of insanity than ending that life. The idea that every life is sacred is religious dogma.

 

[RoJoHen]

I personally believe that purposefully allowing yourself to suffer through living a life of misery is far more a sign of insanity than ending that life. The idea that every life is sacred is religious dogma.

I will agree, under the condition that suicide is always a last resort. You've got to put a lot of effort into improving your life before you decide it is no longer worth it.

 

[Bob The Skutter]

That's not your decision to make. A person's life is their own to do with what they please.

I agree with Hermiod, whether you agree or not some people have a logical reason (in their own mind) for why it would be the best thing, and they don't necessarily need to be out of their mind to come to that decision.

Anything can seem logical to an unbalanced mind. A person's life is their own to do with as they please, certainly, as long as they are of sound mind; being suicidal is not of sound mind. Give me an example of a logical decision to kill yourself.

I just did, and Hermiod listed a few more. I'm not talking about people who up and kill themselves because they've been through a bad relationship, or kill themselves through depression after not taking meds. I mean people in chronic pain who don't/can't get proper pain relief, people whose life has deteriorated to a point where it's not worth living, or unliveable without the aid of people you'd rather not burden, or you don't want to lose your dignity. Along with some of the examples Hermiod gave I think there are plenty of reasons for suicide being a "good" choice for some people.

 

[Jadzia]

Unless, as I said, they are suffering from an incurable illness, I don't see how ending their own life can be the best course of action.

That's not your decision to make. A person's life is their own to do with what they please.

I think I'd agree with Hermiod on this. The right of the individual to choose the course of their own life is of paramount importance. That how ethics works for me. The trouble with introducing concepts like 'mentally unbalanced' is that it is such a vague concept that boils down to a simple conflict of will.

I don't see how having an incurable illness is relevant since everybody has an incurable illness that is their own mortality. The relevant factor is suffering, your ability tolerate it, and willingness to suffer. The relevance of the curability of that suffering is for the victim to decide for themselves: will it last for 1 year or 50 years or some indefinite period?

However Hermiod's suggestion of a 'logical conclusion' I don't think is relevant either. Very few of the decisions we make in life are logical deductions. Most of the decisions we make are acting on feelings.

If somebody wanted to die, I wouldn't take that right to choose away from them, as sad as that choice might be for others, I grant people an inalienable right to choose.

The alternative is to force people to endure a suffering that they desperately want to escape from. That is hell, and people who enforce that are evil.