Hatin' on Supernatural

[AJBryant]

I recently got into Supernatural. Somehow, I hadn't heard of or seen this show until last week.

What the HELL?!?

How the fuck does THAT happen?!?

The show is THE ONLY one that made it through the new tv season of '05 in that huge chunk of genre shows that got greenlit back then and, while not a massive hit, has certainly had a VERY LARGE presence in tv and certainly on here.

For the life of me, I cannot understand how you have never heard of it.

Yeah, I'm kinda surprised by that, too. I really watch very few current shows.

Actually, the meta arc for this season has REALLY turned me off this year. Why introduce angels when they're going to act like smarmy demons and have demons that help them like the angels should.

I agree. I'm finding myself VERY annoyed with that. But, hey. Hollywood. Black is white, up is down. Can't have powerful angels as forces for good. Roma Downey, yeah, you can do that cause she's all froofy and politically correct and non-judgmental and so forth. But if you want to do a show with powerful supernatural beings as forces for good -- they sure can't be ANGELS, cause that opens up a whole can of worms.

Sigh.

 

[hyzmarca]

Old Testament Angels are the genocide first and ask questions later types. They're big on huge massive acts of smiting, not really big on subtlety or moral nuance.
In this way, Supernatural is accurate.

 

[Dorian Thompson]

Old Testament Angels are the genocide first and ask questions later types. They're big on huge massive acts of smiting, not really big on subtlety or moral nuance.
In this way, Supernatural is accurate.

Yep. Tis true. AJ, it sounds like Supernatural just isn't your cup of tea. That's cool and the gang. We don't all like the same things. If you're looking for a more golden depiction of angels, that's not going to happen on this show. They're very old testament, but they aren't all bad. Anna's not, and Castiel's certianly not. Not so sure about Zachariah. However, is thinking for yourself such a terrible message? Being good because it's the right thing to do, not because God commanded it? It was an angel who came with the message that torture is wrong no matter how lofty the goals, after all. that Alistair was the victim didn't matter. I wish some people in our administration had learned that lesson for the past eight years. Hey, you gotta love a show where one of the demones says that Dick Cheney has a parking spot reserved for him downstairs.

 

[AJBryant]

AJ, it sounds like Supernatural just isn't your cup of tea. That's cool and the gang. We don't all like the same things.

Actually, I do like it. I just think there is vast area for improvement. It's kind of like Psych. I heard good things about it, but after one episode, I gave up on it. I have trouble with shows where people are supposed to be sneaking around and are on a deadline, but always stop to have loud arguments. It's massively annoying, and to me, a distraction from the story itself.

If you're looking for a more golden depiction of angels, that's not going to happen on this show. They're very old testament, but they aren't all bad.

No, they're not very OT. They're very Hollywood.

I went to a seminary, spent a lot of time studying the OT and so on. Those are not Christian angels. They're a Hollywood anti-angel version.

Hey, you gotta love a show where one of the demones says that Dick Cheney has a parking spot reserved for him downstairs.

Actually, no. That was nearly a jump the shark moment for me, as it was SO typical of a Hollywood view. I would have been more impressed if they'd had the cojones to say that about Bin Laden or something, but no -- they hit the Republican guy.

Personally, I found it a cheap shot -- and not an unexpected one, either.

 

[John Picard]

If you're looking for a more golden depiction of angels, that's not going to happen on this show. They're very old testament, but they aren't all bad.

No, they're not very OT. They're very Hollywood.

Mmmmmm, I am going to disagree with you there, Seminary or not. OT Angels weren't very nice, and I spent many summers at Indoctrin--- err, Church Camp.

 

[Checkmate]

Please cite some examples of these do-gooder angels from the Old Testament. I can't think of a single example. The one with the flaming sword (hint, hint) guarding Paradise wasn't very helpful or benovelent. The ones who dealt with Sodom and Gammorah certainly weren't. At best, you have some that just gave signs but didn't actually do anything to help anyone. Kind of like what Castiel did in the latest episode.

Hell, the entire Old Testament is full of cruelty and deception not only by the angels but God himself. And to be honest, I have no idea how anyone can worship a deity who was duped into torturing one of his most faithful followers just to prove a point to his self-made worst enemy. Poor, poor Job.

 

[Dorian Thompson]

That's what I love about this show. It inspires more discussion than just "Oh my gosh, they're so HAAAAWT!!" I'm going to have to agree that the angels aren't "Hollywood," AJ. Though I can understand your frustration of wanting to see God's side depicted as a more positive force. I struggle with issues of religion and faith in my own life. Sometimes I attend Unitarian Universalist services, though I've found a group of Liberal Quakers who might understand me better. It's all about a more personal relationship with God without an outside church institution interfering.

I'm afraid I agree that Dick Cheney had it coming in the mockery department. He (along with countless others) engineered this war in Iraq and took our eyes off the ball in Afghanistan where it belonged. How many lives and how much misery was cost? Everyone knows that Bin Laden deserves to burn. That wouldn't be a surprise to any of the characters.

If I might ask, AJBryant, (assuming you're still around) what is it about this show that you do like? Me, I like the fact that the characters really do seem to grow and change and are truly afflicted by their circumstances. Stoic they pretend to be, but stoic they're not. I see Sam and Dean as having changed a great deal. The 26 year old Dean in the pilot (whom I agree was charming and funny but incredibly obnoxious) seemed closer to the 17 year old Dean portrayed in "After School Special" which repeated last Thursday. Dean was a vulnerable bunch of exposed nerves hidden under too much bravado. When that local girl hit the nail on the head after she found him making out with the other girl in the closet, she hit a raw nerve that cut him to the quick. Him trying to hit on all the women was part of that bravado. At least that's my interpretation.

 

[Dorian Thompson]

Whoa....the CW description of episode 4x20, that airs on the 30th, is sweet. I'm liking this.

Spoiler: The Rapture

Castiel comes to Dean in a dream and tells him to go somewhere secluded to meet him. Dean takes Sam along, but they don't find Castiel. They find Jimmy. James McShane is the man Castiel is possessing. He barely remembers anything and he wants to go back to his family.

Sweet, huh? I can't wait to meet him.

 

[John Picard]

Whoa....the CW description of episode 4x20, that airs on the 30th, is sweet. I'm liking this.

Spoiler: The Rapture

Castiel comes to Dean in a dream and tells him to go somewhere secluded to meet him. Dean takes Sam along, but they don't find Castiel. They find Jimmy. James McShane is the man Castiel is possessing. He barely remembers anything and he wants to go back to his family.

Sweet, huh? I can't wait to meet him.

Wow!

 

[Dorian Thompson]

I know. They're amping it up but good. So, did you hear the police think someone may have set the Midwest City fire deliberately? I'm all the way in south OKC and I could smell the smoke. What's the last count? 100 houses burned? Damn lucky there were no fatalities.

 

[John Picard]

I know. They're amping it up but good. So, did you hear the police think someone may have set the Midwest City fire deliberately? I'm all the way in south OKC and I could smell the smoke. What's the last count? 100 houses burned? Damn lucky there were no fatalities.

It's Midwest City -- no great loss.

 

[Dorian Thompson]

Damn, John, my cousin and her family are homeless now. I'd hardly call that no great loss just because they live in Midwest City. If their cast hadn't accidentally gotten out of the house that morning she'd have burned to a crisp. Sheesh. Thanks a bunch.

 

[AJBryant]

Please cite some examples of these do-gooder angels from the Old Testament. I can't think of a single example. The one with the flaming sword (hint, hint) guarding Paradise wasn't very helpful or benovelent. The ones who dealt with Sodom and Gammorah certainly weren't. At best, you have some that just gave signs but didn't actually do anything to help anyone. Kind of like what Castiel did in the latest episode.

God *set* the angel with the flaming sword to guard the Tree of Knowledge. The angel wasn't operating on his own recognizance. And, since Adam and Eve had disobeyed and were being, essentially, evicted from Eden, the angle was nothing more than the guy making sure that they didn't get away with coming back and violating their punishment. The angel didn't do SQUAT -- he was just THERE. A&E were being banished for their sin.

Re. Sodom and Gomorrah: That was *GOD* that did the smiting. The angels were sent there to seek out Good People. Remember God's promise not to destroy the city if He found just TEN good people? Well, the angels *didn't* find that many good people. Only *one* family. Which the angles SAVED.

Yeah, it's generally taken that "the angel of death" slew the firstborn of Egypt -- but the Bible says "The Lord struck all the firstborn of Egypt" -- not that an angel did it. And, still, that was a punishment. Tuff -- you defy the will of God and there will be a smiting. You note that was also the LAST plague. Up to that point, all the plagues of Egypt had been nuisances and annoyances. They were also ignored. There comes a time when you have to take off your belt.

It was an angel who stayed Abraham's hand when he was going to sacrifice Isaac. It was an angel who cured Tobit's blindness. It was an angel who told Jacob to flee from Laban. And so on.

The thought that angels could DOUBT God, let alone continue to rebel, is solely a post-modern one, and typical of the modern (and Hollywood) mentality where sin is virtue and virtue is perverse. It's a quintessentially Hollywood idea that people who serially steal from strangers (e.g., credit card fraud) and live the lives of unrepentant libertines (here I'm thinking primarily of Dean and his "girl in every town" ideas) can be God's chosen heroes while Angels are "dicks with wings" and even doubt the existence of God themselves. Biblically, at least David (the classic example of Doing Bad Things) was constantly repenting for his sins, and was even punished repeatedly for them. Sam and Dean have no such guiding rudder, and revel in that.

Hell, the entire Old Testament is full of cruelty and deception not only by the angels but God himself. And to be honest, I have no idea how anyone can worship a deity who was duped into torturing one of his most faithful followers just to prove a point to his self-made worst enemy. Poor, poor Job.

Well, judging from how clear you are on what is actually written in the OT, and how open minded you sound about it, I don't really think it's necessary for me to argue any points.

That's what I love about this show. It inspires more discussion than just "Oh my gosh, they're so HAAAAWT!!"

Definitely. Gotta admit, though -- there's been more than one female guest star that had me watching the show with more interest.

I'm going to have to agree that the angels aren't "Hollywood," AJ. Though I can understand your frustration of wanting to see God's side depicted as a more positive force. I struggle with issues of religion and faith in my own life.

As do a lot of people. It's particularly hard in the world of fandom, where all the "cool kids" think you should be beyond all that stupid stuff. Sigh.

Bigots are bigots, no matter what robes they wear.

If I might ask, AJBryant, (assuming you're still around) what is it about this show that you do like?

Actually, most of it. I genuinely like the stories (especially the ones that seem somehow self-aware, such as "The End of the Book" -- I loved Sam and Dean's take on shipping. ["Do they KNOW we're... brothers?" "Yes." "Ick!"]) I also love things like the B&W horror movie homage. As a fan of the old Universal horror flicks, that just made me happy all over.

It's one of those things where I really like it, and I feel frustrated as -- for ME -- there are a few tweaks that could be made and it would be a REALLY GREAT (instead of just a REALLY GOOD) show. If they showed the angels as supremely powerful forces for GOOD (instead of angsty rebels themselves), for example, even though they were more or less uninvolved, I would be more happy.

See, I don't see a problem with angels being not to involved -- it's mankind's salvation at stake, so I expect mankind should be taking the forefront in the struggle, with the angels only stepping in when the field is seriously uneven by something REALLY bad taking place.

On the whole, I think they have the bad guys down quite well -- the whole mythology of the show is well developed and internally quite logical. I just wish there were actually differences between the angels and the demons, rather than seemingly both being cut from essentially the same cloth.

The 26 year old Dean in the pilot (whom I agree was charming and funny but incredibly obnoxious) seemed closer to the 17 year old Dean portrayed in "After School Special" which repeated last Thursday. Dean was a vulnerable bunch of exposed nerves hidden under too much bravado. When that local girl hit the nail on the head after she found him making out with the other girl in the closet, she hit a raw nerve that cut him to the quick. Him trying to hit on all the women was part of that bravado. At least that's my interpretation.

Agreed, very much so.

I was really surprised (and pleasantly so) that we find from that flashback that it was actually SAM who was more stable as a child, as it seemed at the beginning of the ep that Sam had problems with things and Dean was very copacetic and accepting of the sitch. Then we find that Sam has a handle on it, and Dean is the one who really can't cope. Very telling.


Tony

 

[Dorian Thompson]

Thanks for your input, Tony. I appreciate hearing diverse points of view. While I don't share your opinion about the angels, I hear what you're saying about people of faith being put down and automatically depicted as ignorant in works of entertainment, and some folks really do flip out if any sort of religion is included in fiction. Believe me, there were viewers who were genuinely offended that angels, a tenet of Christianity, were included in the SPN universe. Not because they weren't depicted to their liking, mind you, but because they were included at all. There can be some pretty militant atheists just as there are wild eyed evangelical Christians. Kripke is trying very hard to straddle that fence, I think. Personally, I like what he's doing but it's not for everyone. So you've caught up already, huh? Perfect or no, SPN can be addictive. Dean is slowly coming to a position of faith. That's something positive for you. Dean might not have been a girl in every port kind of guy had it not been for the way he grew up and the pathologies he developed because of his father's emotional neglect. I don't view Dean as "sinful" or perverse. He's not perfect, grant you. He's just kind of a slut. Can't sinful people come to God and do godly things? I think they can. Even David sent Bathsheba's husband to the front because he lusted for her. I can't imagine Dean deliberately putting anyone in harm's way just because he thought his wife was sexually attractive.

Definitely. Gotta admit, though -- there's been more than one female guest star that had me watching the show with more interest.

A-HA! I knew it. Busted. Let me guess.......you're a Sarah Blake fan, right? Or are you a Bela man?

I genuinely like the stories (especially the ones that seem somehow self-aware, such as "The End of the Book" -- I loved Sam and Dean's take on shipping. ["Do they KNOW we're... brothers?" "Yes." "Ick!"]) I also love things like the B&W horror movie homage. As a fan of the old Universal horror flicks, that just made me happy all over.

YES! A Monster Movie fan. I adored that episode. I got my father hooked on the series with that episode. I laughed so hard my sides hurt. Oh, and this last episode.....the publisher with the boys' anti possession tattoo on her butt who mocked, "Dr. Sexy MD,"....tears were running down my face. I couldn't catch my breath. My sides hurt and I could barely breath. Dr. Sexy MD.....gosh, could that be a rip at a certain supposedly attractive doctor on an ABC soap opera that I despise? I was feeling so superior up to then because I chastise girl fans who fight over whether Sam or Dean are better and don't get my started on Wincest. Then I heard Dr. Sexy MD and I had to dive for cover lest I get struck by lightning. Whoooooops.

I was really surprised (and pleasantly so) that we find from that flashback that it was actually SAM who was more stable as a child, as it seemed at the beginning of the ep that Sam had problems with things and Dean was very copacetic and accepting of the sitch. Then we find that Sam has a handle on it, and Dean is the one who really can't cope. Very telling.


Tony

I think "After School Special" is the single most underrated episode of the entire series. Not surprisingly, some of the really rabid fan girls disliked this episode because, quite frankly, they didn't get it. Oooooh, they're making Dean look baaaaaaaad. No, they were making him look human and were trying to really flesh out these two characters, which I appreciate in a show. I thought the teenage version of Dean did a wonderful job of showing a very fragile person cut to the quick when the girl mocked him in front of people and said she felt sorry for him. Physically, Dean is very brave but emotionally he's a mess. He's a damaged individual in the extreme. However, in spite of everything he gets up in the morning and still puts one foot in front of the other. To someone in my situation with my louse of an ex-husband, that's appealing.

Actually, if you go back and read the very early press releases it's obvious that Kripke meant for Sam to be the more main character of the two and Dean was meant to be more sidekick. It didn't take Kripke long to realize that Ackles brought a whole lot more to the role than that, so he adjusted accordingly.

 

[John Picard]

Damn, John, my cousin and her family are homeless now. I'd hardly call that no great loss just because they live in Midwest City. If their cast hadn't accidentally gotten out of the house that morning she'd have burned to a crisp. Sheesh. Thanks a bunch.

Sorry, I didn't know your family was unfortunate enough to live there. I hate MWC because my ex-wife is from there/lives there and she acts like it's the best place on the Earth. Seriously, she's the stereotypical, in-bred, narrowminded example of Oklahoma white-trash.

And don't ask what I saw in her. I admit I was young and stupid.

 

[AJBryant]

So you've caught up already, huh? Perfect or no, SPN can be addictive.

Tell me about it. It was a very long and trying week. (Yeah, I watched all four seasons in one week!) I think that might be why I feel so frustrated at small character flaws -- spread out week to week, they wouldn't stand out as much as when watching one episode after another after another.

Dean is slowly coming to a position of faith. That's something positive for you. Dean might not have been a girl in every port kind of guy had it not been for the way he grew up and the pathologies he developed because of his father's emotional neglect. I don't view Dean as "sinful" or perverse. He's not perfect, grant you. He's just kind of a slut.

Good point. I did get a kick that he was at first so agnostic to the existence of angels. I find a guy who is a professional hunter of vampires and ghosts and demons saying "XYZ doesn't exist" to be a particularly delicious irony.

Can't sinful people come to God and do godly things? I think they can. Even David sent Bathsheba's husband to the front because he lusted for her. I can't imagine Dean deliberately putting anyone in harm's way just because he thought his wife was sexually attractive.

Very true.

Definitely. Gotta admit, though -- there's been more than one female guest star that had me watching the show with more interest.

A-HA! I knew it. Busted. Let me guess.......you're a Sarah Blake fan, right? Or are you a Bela man?

Actually, I had a thing for the first Meg -- and, of course, Layla Rourke (hey, I'll watch *anything* Julie Benz is in!), and was very happy to see Amber Benson playing a vampire.

I genuinely like the stories (especially the ones that seem somehow self-aware, such as "The End of the Book" -- I loved Sam and Dean's take on shipping. ["Do they KNOW we're... brothers?" "Yes." "Ick!"]) I also love things like the B&W horror movie homage. As a fan of the old Universal horror flicks, that just made me happy all over.

YES! A Monster Movie fan. I adored that episode. I got my father hooked on the series with that episode. I laughed so hard my sides hurt. Oh, and this last episode.....the publisher with the boys' anti possession tattoo on her butt who mocked, "Dr. Sexy MD,"....tears were running down my face. I couldn't catch my breath. My sides hurt and I could barely breath. Dr. Sexy MD.....gosh, could that be a rip at a certain supposedly attractive doctor on an ABC soap opera that I despise? I was feeling so superior up to then because I chastise girl fans who fight over whether Sam or Dean are better and don't get my started on Wincest. Then I heard Dr. Sexy MD and I had to dive for cover lest I get struck by lightning. Whoooooops.

Okay, I officially like your style.

I was really surprised (and pleasantly so) that we find from that flashback that it was actually SAM who was more stable as a child, as it seemed at the beginning of the ep that Sam had problems with things and Dean was very copacetic and accepting of the sitch. Then we find that Sam has a handle on it, and Dean is the one who really can't cope. Very telling.

I think "After School Special" is the single most underrated episode of the entire series. Not surprisingly, some of the really rabid fan girls disliked this episode because, quite frankly, they didn't get it. Oooooh, they're making Dean look baaaaaaaad. No, they were making him look human and were trying to really flesh out these two characters, which I appreciate in a show. I thought the teenage version of Dean did a wonderful job of showing a very fragile person cut to the quick when the girl mocked him in front of people and said she felt sorry for him. Physically, Dean is very brave but emotionally he's a mess. He's a damaged individual in the extreme. However, in spite of everything he gets up in the morning and still puts one foot in front of the other. To someone in my situation with my louse of an ex-husband, that's appealing.

I have to agree. (Not about the louse ex, bit -- I'll take your word for that .) Easily one of the best shows, I think. At least, one of the most "relatable" ones.

Actually, if you go back and read the very early press releases it's obvious that Kripke meant for Sam to be the more main character of the two and Dean was meant to be more sidekick. It didn't take Kripke long to realize that Ackles brought a whole lot more to the role than that, so he adjusted accordingly.

That makes sense. It fits the format of the first few eps, which seemed to be more Sam-centric, too. Heck, we start the show (after the flashback, of course) with catching up with SAM'S life when Dean shows up, after all... not the other way around.

You are officially on my "cool person list" now, BTW.

T.

 

[Dorian Thompson]

Thank you. I have my good moments.

A Nicki Aycox fan....nice. Yes, Meg was so deliciously evil. You kiss your mother with that mouth? Oh, that's right....you don't. I loved her delivery. Julie Benz--then you're privy to the delightful Dexter. Great show.

 

[Checkmate]

The thought that angels could DOUBT God, let alone continue to rebel, is solely a post-modern one, and typical of the modern (and Hollywood) mentality where sin is virtue and virtue is perverse. It's a quintessentially Hollywood idea that people who serially steal from strangers (e.g., credit card fraud) and live the lives of unrepentant libertines (here I'm thinking primarily of Dean and his "girl in every town" ideas) can be God's chosen heroes while Angels are "dicks with wings" and even doubt the existence of God themselves. Biblically, at least David (the classic example of Doing Bad Things) was constantly repenting for his sins, and was even punished repeatedly for them. Sam and Dean have no such guiding rudder, and revel in that.

Yeah. Good thing Satan didn't exercise free-will before his fall. Being an angel and all, he obviously didn't even have a choice to do it. Wait, so does that mean God commanded Satan to be a bad boy (since he didn't have the free will to do it on his own)? And that all the evil in the world is actually attributed to God as a result?

And yeah, the Old Testament God was a fucking saint. He tortured Job for shits & giggles (apparently needing to prove something to Satan; how old is he, 10?), he killed people on a whim, he commanded people to ignore the other gods and only worship him (note that he didn't deny their existance!, he was just a selfish dick). Killing and smiiting both innocents and not-so-innocents alike left and right. Total psychopath, really.

But yeah. I can see why you'd think his most devoted followers would be these wonderful, majestic, always-willing-to-help-everyone beings. They must be nice and cuddly! They'd never do anything cruel, heartless or malign. Well, unless they were commanded to. And, you know, then they'd just do it blindly. But it wouldn't be their fault they're being dicks. It's God's! Those silly angels.

Sarcasm and venom aside, it really does show that you haven't been paying much attention to the show. The angels doubting God's existence have very good reasons for that doubt, and even then the ones we've seen have been terrified (Castiel) or driven insane (Uriel) by the prospect. One could argue that their faith is being tested and a new war in heaven is already underway. Some of those no-free-will-but-obviously-have-some-else-we-wouldn't-have-Satan angels have already begun to choose-even-though-they-can't-despite-once-again-Satan sides. And some of those are clearly in the upper choirs which is why angels like Castiel are beginning to doubt even if they can't bring themselves to disobey just yet.

Regardless, the mere notion that the angels of the Old Testament are saintly types is ridiculously absurd. If they're nice, it's the same reason that they're evil: God commanded them. You can't have your cake ("they're nice on their own, here, see these examples!") and eat it ("they only do evil because God told them to, but they're really nice, honest!"), too.

 

[AJBryant]

Thank you. I have my good moments.

Neat! I had one once... back around 89 or 90, I think....

A Nicki Aycox fan....nice. Yes, Meg was so deliciously evil. You kiss your mother with that mouth? Oh, that's right....you don't. I loved her delivery. Julie Benz--then you're privy to the delightful Dexter. Great show.

Yeah, Dexter is one of those shows I love despite myself.

Julie Benz. Mmmm. Daaaaarlaaaaa......

Oddly, though, I've always liked the more waif-like ones -- like Nicki Aycox, and Nickie Clyne (the late, lamented Spec. Cally on BSG).

Oh... Checkmate, I'm sorry you are so emotionally upset about something. There seems to be some pain or anger there, and I don't know what it is. I wish I could help you, but I see no benefit in continuing a dialogue with you.

 

[John Picard]

If you don't like the show's portrayal of characters (demons and angels) then don't watch it.

I hate to say this, but the only reason fallen angels (demons) are portrayed as they are is due to the Catholic Church's depiction of them after the Fall of Rome. They evolved to be fearsome, gruesome creatures.