Well, he did become a fugitive and even sacrificed his life in order to save Voyager but that was in the future and in an alternate reality.
Harry Kim's promotion... or lack of it.
- Thread starter Kobayshi Maru
- Start date
Kept the ship operating with no rest, a tiny skeleton crew, and an impossible mandate during "The Killing Game" while simultaneously conspiring with the Doctor on how to over come the Hirogen Neural implant and free the crew. You know, basic Ensign stuff.
Even Barclay went above and beyond here and there, but he never really got on the rails for a promotional fast track. Starfleet officers are supposed to be exceptional people. Harry's exceptional deeds might be exceptional compared to uh, Tom, Dick and....well, Harry's exceptional deeds, but compared to the people he would advance against, they are pretty average.
But Barclay was a Lt.
You think Harry might have gotten at least a bump to Lt. j.g. for his heroics.
I think it was Janeway that pointed out in some episode that the command/promotion structure was a little different than it would have been at home. If Harry gets promoted, it's because someone else died. In the Alpha Quadrant, Harry would have been promoted easily with officers moving up and down and all around.
I think Janeway was Harry's bad luck after all his accomplishment/heroics and there were some, he even died in one episode. She even managed to put a blame on his permanent record. Can you imagine the injustice. Basically it's "I can't promote you but I won't hesitate to destroy your future chances at a career if we ever get back!!!"
Harry should have been kicked out of Starfleet for what he did in the killing Game.
140 crew raped and tortured continuously for 30 days, and a few of them murdered every now and then.
Anything other then blowing the ship up, which was absolutely in his power to do so, was collaboration and treason.
...
Time Travel for anything smaller than averting the destruction of the Federation, and even that is still quite selfish, considering how that might destabilize dozens to billions of other species on a long enough timeline.
Captain Kim allowed the destruction of almost 30 years of good history where the Federation thrived for no other reason than whimsy and loyalty to a crazy person.
That can never be allowed to happen again.
Keeping Kim an Ensign would achieve that safety for everyone else far better than kicking him into the real world where he might chance across the power of time travel himself while being unsupervised by hundreds of superior officers.
140 crew raped and tortured continuously for 30 days, and a few of them murdered every now and then.
Anything other then blowing the ship up, which was absolutely in his power to do so, was collaboration and treason.
...
Time Travel for anything smaller than averting the destruction of the Federation, and even that is still quite selfish, considering how that might destabilize dozens to billions of other species on a long enough timeline.
Captain Kim allowed the destruction of almost 30 years of good history where the Federation thrived for no other reason than whimsy and loyalty to a crazy person.
That can never be allowed to happen again.
Keeping Kim an Ensign would achieve that safety for everyone else far better than kicking him into the real world where he might chance across the power of time travel himself while being unsupervised by hundreds of superior officers.
In other words; Burn the village in order to save it!!!
Call me an optimist but I tend to think that as long as there's life, there's hope.
The same could be said about Janeway and yet she was made an Admiral... AGAIN!!!
That was a foolish conceit on the part of the VOY writers. There was no reason not to give Harry a promotion other than Garrett Wang was irritating bore, and the writers/show runners did not like him.
During the Hirogen Occupation, saw the Doctor put sheets over the faces of two unnamed crew of unknown rank because they were dead in the killing Game.
Is it just Harry's dumb luck that these deadies were enlisted and he couldn't be later swiftly promoted into those recently vacated positions in Voyager's hierarchy?
Is it just Harry's dumb luck that these deadies were enlisted and he couldn't be later swiftly promoted into those recently vacated positions in Voyager's hierarchy?
Self-destruct like you proposed would have killed everyone instead of a few. How is that better?
Harry could definitely blow up the ship at any point, but there was what a %15 percent chance that he could save every one after a month of captivity because his captors had stopped watching him so closely because they thought that they had broken the Ensign's will and that he was their pet human.
Might as well have been wearing a leash they could tug on.
(Rope a dope, Harry was just pretending, or after 20 days of being an obedient punk ass bitch, Harry found a new spine?)
On day one of the Hirgoen occupation, there was zero percent chance of saving everyone and any failed attempt at rescuing the crew would have meant that the Hirogen Alpha would have began spacing people out the airlock until Harry learnt his lesson about who was in charge... And we don't know that 5 people were not spaced after Harry's first failed attempt to liberate his crewmates on day 3.
Harry saved everyone after a month, so it all kinda worked out alright.
But what if he hadn't, and it didn't?
If the entire crew was forced to play these games until they died of old age, or more likely died or maimed as a result of the games being so dangerous, and if the Doctor wasn't administering Birth control, how many generations of mostly human beings were going to be left on Voyager for centuries still to come acting out famous battles for Hirogen amusement?
And I'm serious about the birth control. The ship's library computer was mentaly programming at first random relationships that the computer thought would help prop up the back story of the wars they fought. Give the soldiers something to fight for, but eventually the Hirogen, after they become invested and start developing sets of favourite human pets, will be taking command of those decisions to make love connections they find appealing, like how you might arrange to have your dog stud with a bitch listed on Craig's List to make just the right sort of puppies.
What if Kim failed and this went on for another ten years?
Ten years of "this" or a swift immediate death?
This is what the Kobayashi Maru is about.
Accepting the no-win situation.
How many limbs was Naomi going to have replaced before her tenth birthday if Kim had failed to take back Voyager on day 30?
Picard chose to blow up the ship in Where Silence has Lease rather than be a plaything to an asshole, and Janeway chose to blow up the Ship in Scientific method (AN EPISODE EARLIER!) rather than be a plaything to an asshole, and Kirk chose to blow up the ship in Charlie X rather than be a plaything to an asshole.
That could be construed as a pattern.
And above is just about sparing the crew from a few boo boos and feeling sad, there's also the question of the Prime Directive. Voyager's Captain is supposed to blow up the Ship if they can, before they let assholes take Voyager's technology and use it to dominate their neighbours, and the rest of the quadrant beyond that.
It's unconscionable to be responsible for arming assholes with superior weapons they are going to be reckless with when you can do something to stop it.
Federation torpedos, mass produced in Hirogen factories could have been used to murder millions of individuals or wipe out entire planets which would make Kim's inaction (Destroying Voyager before the Hirogen had copied and understood the complete technical specifications of Federation Technology.) responsible for the death of trillions.
Don't be a dick. Blow up the ship.
Might as well have been wearing a leash they could tug on.
(Rope a dope, Harry was just pretending, or after 20 days of being an obedient punk ass bitch, Harry found a new spine?)
On day one of the Hirgoen occupation, there was zero percent chance of saving everyone and any failed attempt at rescuing the crew would have meant that the Hirogen Alpha would have began spacing people out the airlock until Harry learnt his lesson about who was in charge... And we don't know that 5 people were not spaced after Harry's first failed attempt to liberate his crewmates on day 3.
Harry saved everyone after a month, so it all kinda worked out alright.
But what if he hadn't, and it didn't?
If the entire crew was forced to play these games until they died of old age, or more likely died or maimed as a result of the games being so dangerous, and if the Doctor wasn't administering Birth control, how many generations of mostly human beings were going to be left on Voyager for centuries still to come acting out famous battles for Hirogen amusement?
And I'm serious about the birth control. The ship's library computer was mentaly programming at first random relationships that the computer thought would help prop up the back story of the wars they fought. Give the soldiers something to fight for, but eventually the Hirogen, after they become invested and start developing sets of favourite human pets, will be taking command of those decisions to make love connections they find appealing, like how you might arrange to have your dog stud with a bitch listed on Craig's List to make just the right sort of puppies.
What if Kim failed and this went on for another ten years?
Ten years of "this" or a swift immediate death?
This is what the Kobayashi Maru is about.
Accepting the no-win situation.
How many limbs was Naomi going to have replaced before her tenth birthday if Kim had failed to take back Voyager on day 30?
Picard chose to blow up the ship in Where Silence has Lease rather than be a plaything to an asshole, and Janeway chose to blow up the Ship in Scientific method (AN EPISODE EARLIER!) rather than be a plaything to an asshole, and Kirk chose to blow up the ship in Charlie X rather than be a plaything to an asshole.
That could be construed as a pattern.
And above is just about sparing the crew from a few boo boos and feeling sad, there's also the question of the Prime Directive. Voyager's Captain is supposed to blow up the Ship if they can, before they let assholes take Voyager's technology and use it to dominate their neighbours, and the rest of the quadrant beyond that.
It's unconscionable to be responsible for arming assholes with superior weapons they are going to be reckless with when you can do something to stop it.
Federation torpedos, mass produced in Hirogen factories could have been used to murder millions of individuals or wipe out entire planets which would make Kim's inaction (Destroying Voyager before the Hirogen had copied and understood the complete technical specifications of Federation Technology.) responsible for the death of trillions.
Don't be a dick. Blow up the ship.
I am sorry but this story of yours is based on about half a ton of what ifs and wild speculation. I can't take it seriously.
I thought Picard's reaction in blowing up the ship as well as Janeway's to literally fly off the handle in Scientific method to be downright stupid. The feel good impulsive thing that pleases the viewer because after all he knows that the hero will survive and that it's not HIS own life that is at stake is also cowardly and irresponsible. Janeway didn't have the courage to bear the pain long enough for her people to come up with a plan that didn't involve almost certain death (according to tuvok it's a plot convenient miracle that they survived).
What about Deadlock?
Janeway DID blow up the ship. She killed her crew, the Hirogen boarding party and the ship they came from that had cut into the hull and hard sealed behind themselves.
Her entire crew was going to be filleted and their organs emptied into a giant drum twice.
In Scientific Method...
Picard on the other hand was told that probably a third of his crew would die by Nagilum while he experimented on every one.
Masada.
Protecting the technology is more important than protecting the people since the entire crew except Seven, Neelix and Naomi had taken an oath to die rather than letting assholes chance into a position where they can abuse Starfleet Technology for evil.
If it was just about giving the crew a chance to escape, sure let it ride, prolong their captivity, torture and slavery, no harm no foul, and so what if they need a year to turn the tables on their new owners give'm a year, it's not like they're going to be like that Romulan prison Camp from TNG Birthright where they don't know who the prisoners and the guards were any more after 30 years of fucking and intermarrying.
What if Chakotay had died before he rescued Janeway from her memory implants in Workforce. Their rescue would have been a hell of a lot more cohesive if they spent a month brainstorming before they put boots on the ground. And really, what was the rush? The crew didn't now that they were slaves, so really, he could have just found a new crew and left them on Quarra.
Regardless, at all costs Holotechnology had to be kept out of Hirogen hands!
1. As they died off as a species from noncollectivity and constantly reducing intraspecies breeding... Every body else became safer as their empire of warriors became a few caravans of hillbilly hunters and then nothing. Everyone would have been better off with the Hirogen dead. If Holotechnology saved them, then everyone else in the galaxy is worse off.
2. The Hirogen invent holographic prey that are smarter and deadlier who feel compelled to destroy all Hirogen. But after they killed all the Hirogen, do they stop there? Everybody dies.
See!
Not good.
What the #### was Kathryn thinking?
Janeway DID blow up the ship. She killed her crew, the Hirogen boarding party and the ship they came from that had cut into the hull and hard sealed behind themselves.
Her entire crew was going to be filleted and their organs emptied into a giant drum twice.
In Scientific Method...
Janeway risked death of everyone (%40 to %60 of being burnt between those two stars?) to save a few possible random fatalities and some undefined deformities.
Picard on the other hand was told that probably a third of his crew would die by Nagilum while he experimented on every one.
Masada.
Protecting the technology is more important than protecting the people since the entire crew except Seven, Neelix and Naomi had taken an oath to die rather than letting assholes chance into a position where they can abuse Starfleet Technology for evil.
If it was just about giving the crew a chance to escape, sure let it ride, prolong their captivity, torture and slavery, no harm no foul, and so what if they need a year to turn the tables on their new owners give'm a year, it's not like they're going to be like that Romulan prison Camp from TNG Birthright where they don't know who the prisoners and the guards were any more after 30 years of fucking and intermarrying.
What if Chakotay had died before he rescued Janeway from her memory implants in Workforce. Their rescue would have been a hell of a lot more cohesive if they spent a month brainstorming before they put boots on the ground. And really, what was the rush? The crew didn't now that they were slaves, so really, he could have just found a new crew and left them on Quarra.
Regardless, at all costs Holotechnology had to be kept out of Hirogen hands!
1. As they died off as a species from noncollectivity and constantly reducing intraspecies breeding... Every body else became safer as their empire of warriors became a few caravans of hillbilly hunters and then nothing. Everyone would have been better off with the Hirogen dead. If Holotechnology saved them, then everyone else in the galaxy is worse off.
2. The Hirogen invent holographic prey that are smarter and deadlier who feel compelled to destroy all Hirogen. But after they killed all the Hirogen, do they stop there? Everybody dies.
See!
Not good.
What the #### was Kathryn thinking?
Except that Nagilum seemed to have powers beyond anything starfleet technology can offer anyway, at least within his domain. Similarly, the alien race from scientific method seems to be significantly beyond federation technology (at least in biomedics and cloaking, perhaps they would be behind in other areas like weapons technology, but I still don't think that is very likely).
So in both those cases there was probably very little Nagilum or the alien race could have gained from voyager technology anyway. In that respect, I thought that both Janeway and Picard were just too "principled" to concede (but I don't think it was actually the wisest move they made). Luckily their gamble payed off, but they could have died just as easily, and for nothing.
The Hirogen are another matter entirely, I agree that it would have been preferable to have blown the ship up as a last resort than let them profit from starfleet technology.
Yeah, I do believe that a promotion was warranted after the Hirogen incident, there was nothing he really could do but bide his time to save the crew (had he have blown up the ship it would have been seen as a snap judgement).
That said are you telling me that in the 150 crew there is only the following officers above Ensign:
1 x Captain
2 x Lt commanders
3 x Lt JG (Paris, Torres and Carey)
I don't remember ever seeing any other's on screen but it's been a while since I have watched much of Voyager.
That said are you telling me that in the 150 crew there is only the following officers above Ensign:
1 x Captain
2 x Lt commanders
3 x Lt JG (Paris, Torres and Carey)
I don't remember ever seeing any other's on screen but it's been a while since I have watched much of Voyager.
Just a side note: the Hirogen had nothing even remotely resembling a home planet or a home base. So the idea that they could steal Starfleet tech (even though they had little trouble overcoming Voyager's defensive and offensive capabilities) and then would use that tech to build some unstoppable army ignores every bit of information we were given about the Hirogen. They were solitary hunters, coming together only to attack larger prey.
