Harry Kim promotion theory

[Mres_was_framed!]

The pattern from the early versions of the series and onward, with Jose Tyler, Chekov, Geordi in TNG season 1, would seem to suggest that Starfleet has some practice of having a younger officer in one of the main bridge positions, who is of lower rank but can attend the staff meetings, and is a part of the command crew but has a lower rank. That person also tended to be an emotional character that let the audience know how it felt to still be trying to "fit in" to the way things are accomplished on that starship. It seems like this is why Kim is in the position he is in as an ensign. Usually, that officer was in the command "pit" but Voyager's bridge has the Chief of Operations on an upper level. I would suggest that Chekov's navigator role had some parallels to the OPS or CONN roles in TNG, Geordi was at CONN during season 1.

Admittedly, Geordi was a LTJG, and I don't really know about Jose Tyler, but for Harry to have not climbed the ranks my have been in part in order to keep him in the role these other officers had on other shows.

I bet there are more examples of this type of officer.

 

[fireproof78]

Admittedly, Geordi was a LTJG, and I don't really know about Jose Tyler, but for Harry to have not climbed the ranks my have been in part in order to keep him in the role these other officers had on other shows.

But Geordi was promoted.

None is saying that Harry should have this meteoric rise. Just that remaining Ensign after 4 years, much less 7, is ridiculous. The excuse making to justify it is more amazing.

 

[Guy Gardener]

No.

Sure he was valedictorian, but Dept Head of Ops was his first job, on his first day as an officer on his first ship. That's exactly how much seniority he needed to perform those duties, the least possible amount possible for an officer in the history of officers who do not have made up ranks.

"Berman" and other producers, and most of the writers in Voyager's writers room did not understand that 90 percent of the crew is supposed to be enlisted, it was fairly clear that they believed that Harry was supposed to be the lowest of the low, and even Kes spat on him for being unclean.

Sometimes Voyager is referred to as Janeway's first command, but the writers room cannot keep their shit straight.

The ship is so small, and so unimportant, that a full commander would not know what to do with themselves on such a rinky dink bucket. Chakotay and Cavitt were Lieutenant Commanders, although Bartlet seems to be a full commander, but he's also so rarely seen that he is probably a second captain that is tapped when Janeway is off duty or sleeping, than her other first officer.

If any lieutenant on the ship, of which there seemed to be at least Ninety lieutenants on that ship, wanted to be the head of Ops, they just had to order Kim to do a million push ups and take the prestigious position.

No Lieutenant wanted it.

 

[Charles Phipps]

I remember when Keith RA DeCandido did a review of "Dark Frontier" and he just was reduced to angrish in his text when the Borg said there were 140 people onboard the VOY. Clearly showing the writers didn't care about all of the casualties the ship had suffered with no new recruits in the five seasons.

https://reactormag.com/star-trek-voyager-rewatch-dark-frontier/

The Borg examine Voyager and declare there are 143 lifeforms on board, and I can’t even with this anymore. They’re obviously just throwing random numbers out. Oh, and a shuttlecraft is sacrificed to the Borg, so they’re now down ten shuttles.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I remember when Keith RA DeCandido did a review of "Dark Frontier" and he just was reduced to angrish in his text when the Borg said there were 140 people onboard the VOY. Clearly showing the writers didn't care about all of the casualties the ship had suffered with no new recruits in the five seasons.

https://reactormag.com/star-trek-voyager-rewatch-dark-frontier/

What if they were keeping animals as transportation, pets or food?

Certainly not for butchering, but milk is good for the bones.

Also "PASSENGERS"?

 

[evilchumlee]

Still should have been promoted due to acting as a department head.

Job dictates rank.

The importance of the ship, therefore the importance of the ship's missions multiplied by the size of the ship multiplied by the number of staff to his department multiplied by the actual complexity of the job...

Put these two together because, this. At least partly.

Starfleet doesn't work like modern day militaries do. Rank really isn't as important as job, but yes... job often dictates rank. I think both of the quoted statements have levels of true and not true.

I don't believe that being a rank higher than Ensign is necessary to be a department head, it just depends on the circumstance and department. Kim was Chief of Operations... if the rest of the Operations Department were enlisted crewman? There's really no need to have anything higher than Ensign for that department. "Operations" has always been something of an ill-defined department in Trek but especially on Voyager, Kim being a "department head" often seemed like he was the head of... himself. Kim basically *IS* Operations on the ship. We never see Kim with any kind of direct reports or anything of the nature, unlike Chakotay (obviously), Tuvok, or Torres. The oddball here is Tom Paris, who makes Lieutenant and while ostensibly being the head of the... conn department(?) also doesn't seem to have any reports under him. At the same point by the time Paris makes Lieutenant, he IS pulling double-duty in Sickbay as well. We never see it, but I suspect Paris would also be in charge of the shuttlebay which would give him a few reports. It's never mentioned, but through observation when near anything happens in the shuttlebay, Paris is involved with it.

Operations on Voyager... just doesn't seem to consist of much. "Ops" seems to generally be the 24th century equivalent of "Science Officer" while also taking care of more mundane ship functions. Voyager doesn't have an extensive science crew and later on Seven of Nine just completely usurps what on other ships would probably be "Stellar Cartography".

 

[Guy Gardener]

Put these two together because, this. At least partly.

Starfleet doesn't work like modern day militaries do. Rank really isn't as important as job, but yes... job often dictates rank. I think both of the quoted statements have levels of true and not true.

I don't believe that being a rank higher than Ensign is necessary to be a department head, it just depends on the circumstance and department. Kim was Chief of Operations... if the rest of the Operations Department were enlisted crewman? There's really no need to have anything higher than Ensign for that department. "Operations" has always been something of an ill-defined department in Trek but especially on Voyager, Kim being a "department head" often seemed like he was the head of... himself. Kim basically *IS* Operations on the ship. We never see Kim with any kind of direct reports or anything of the nature, unlike Chakotay (obviously), Tuvok, or Torres. The oddball here is Tom Paris, who makes Lieutenant and while ostensibly being the head of the... conn department(?) also doesn't seem to have any reports under him. At the same point by the time Paris makes Lieutenant, he IS pulling double-duty in Sickbay as well. We never see it, but I suspect Paris would also be in charge of the shuttlebay which would give him a few reports. It's never mentioned, but through observation when near anything happens in the shuttlebay, Paris is involved with it.

Operations on Voyager... just doesn't seem to consist of much. "Ops" seems to generally be the 24th century equivalent of "Science Officer" while also taking care of more mundane ship functions. Voyager doesn't have an extensive science crew and later on Seven of Nine just completely usurps what on other ships would probably be "Stellar Cartography".

The actual "job" is irrelevant.

Any starfleet graduate can do any job imaginable with zero perpetration. A little prep would be better, but what they do is tell specialists when to do their job and when to go on break, in such a way that no one dies.

I believe that Head of Ops, and Chief of Operations are two very different jobs.

What Data does, monitoring everything from the bridge, and what Miles does on DS9, diving head first into every malfunctioning greasy mechanism he can find, are completely different jobs.

Kim does not sit at the ops station 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 52 weeks a year.

The Head of Department is not the person who does the job best or the most. The head of Department is the person who makes the roster, making sure that there is a bum in a seat all the time, and then writes a report about how good or bad that person was at their job, and a log about what happened over the course of the week, are reading all the logs from all the crew assigned to Ops for the 21 or 14 duty shifts per week.

Rank denotes how many other subordinate officers that command believes you can order around with out fucking up. The reason that Ops on Voyager only needs an Ensign, is because the Department might have less than 5 people in it, even if some of them are lieutenants, and quite frankly, for the sake of sanity, week to week, they are probably not always be the same 5 people.

 

[fireproof78]

Put these two together because, this. At least partly.

Starfleet doesn't work like modern day militaries do. Rank really isn't as important as job, but yes... job often dictates rank. I think both of the quoted statements have levels of true and not true.

I don't believe that being a rank higher than Ensign is necessary to be a department head, it just depends on the circumstance and department. Kim was Chief of Operations... if the rest of the Operations Department were enlisted crewman? There's really no need to have anything higher than Ensign for that department. "Operations" has always been something of an ill-defined department in Trek but especially on Voyager, Kim being a "department head" often seemed like he was the head of... himself. Kim basically *IS* Operations on the ship. We never see Kim with any kind of direct reports or anything of the nature, unlike Chakotay (obviously), Tuvok, or Torres. The oddball here is Tom Paris, who makes Lieutenant and while ostensibly being the head of the... conn department(?) also doesn't seem to have any reports under him. At the same point by the time Paris makes Lieutenant, he IS pulling double-duty in Sickbay as well. We never see it, but I suspect Paris would also be in charge of the shuttlebay which would give him a few reports. It's never mentioned, but through observation when near anything happens in the shuttlebay, Paris is involved with it.

Operations on Voyager... just doesn't seem to consist of much. "Ops" seems to generally be the 24th century equivalent of "Science Officer" while also taking care of more mundane ship functions. Voyager doesn't have an extensive science crew and later on Seven of Nine just completely usurps what on other ships would probably be "Stellar Cartography".

Neither did helm but Paris got promoted.

It's bullshit, pure and simply. Harry is often tasked with translation of alien languages, collaborating with Engineering, working on research projects, etc.

Lieutenant j.g. is obvious step in acknowledging successful completion of one's duties and bettering oneself.

 

[evilchumlee]

The actual "job" is irrelevant.

I don't think that's entirely accurate, but it's also not as rigid as "only x rank can do x job". Job is... related to rank.

Any starfleet graduate can do any job imaginable with zero perpetration.

That's not entirely accurate either, if only because the extreme absolutes. Most Starfleet graduates can do most jobs. Starfleet graduates will have a general base familiarity with other jobs, but it might be a stretch to take Random Security Officer and put him into a Chief Engineer role...

I believe that Head of Ops, and Chief of Operations are two very different jobs.

What Data does, monitoring everything from the bridge, and what Miles does on DS9, diving head first into every malfunctioning greasy mechanism he can find, are completely different jobs.

Absolutely, although I think the difference in nomenclature is more related to a ship vs. station.

"Operations" on a starship is going to be a much different animal than "Operations" on a station. Judging from DS9, most officers have some sort of double-duty that should generally fall under "Operations". We see pretty often Dax, the station's science officer, dealing with docking requests. If anything, Kira seems to hold a position closer to what a starship Chief of Operations would be, in that she oversees the... operations of the station.

Ops on a station seems to be more analogous to Engineering on a starship.

(Just as an aside speaking of DS9 roles, we tend to gloss over Worf, who probably has the single most important role on the station. We never really hear much about it and focus way more on him commanding the Defiant, but he should be responsible for all fleet movement in Bajor Sector.)

Rank denotes how many other subordinate officers that command believes you can order around with out fucking up. The reason that Ops on Voyager only needs an Ensign, is because the Department might have less than 5 people in it, even if some of them are lieutenants, and quite frankly, for the sake of sanity, week to week, they are probably not always be the same 5 people.

That's entirely true. And... given Kim's record with interpersonal relationships, the number of people he could order around would be... few.

It's actually a fairly interesting perspective I had not really considered. Kim seems to be seen by damn near everyone as the ship as the "green newbie". He doesn't command much respect, and any ounce of power seems to go to his head immediately (see "Nightengale").

Harry Kim is such an interesting character, far more than I had realized during Voyager's run. He's so damn good at his job, while being so damn bad at interacting with people.

 

[Oddish]

Harry is his own boss, and writes his own reports about himself, but the Doctor hates Harry.

So much that he let another ensign die so that Harry could live. Another justification bites the dust.

Theoretically, when contact was reestablished with Starfleet, Tuvok could have been busted down to Lieutenant again, though Starfleet instead chose to confirm the promotion to Lt. Commander Janeway gave him.

More likely they would review all promotions and field commissions Janeway made upon Voyager's return to Earth. And, review the records of all crew she didn't promote. Realistically, Harry was probably putting on lieutenant pips mere days after Voyager returned, and that's assuming it didn't happen the way Una McCormack says it did, and that Janeway's final act as Voyager's captain was to promote him herself.

True, but I have the impression that we usually explicitly get to hear it when a promotion/commission is just a field promotion/commission. (Examples: Riker in BOBW, Paris in Caretaker). The promotion of Tuvok certainly didn't sound like that.

Because Voyager was still far from home. Tuvok's new rank was likely to be in effect for years, even decades.

I've made the observation, the hill i'll die on for this topic, that Harry Kim actually wasn't cut out for Starfleet. Had he not been on Voyager, he wouldn't have lasted on a ship. He has consistent behavioral issues and has shown time and again to be completely willing to ignore or disobey orders when it benefits him personally to do so, and he tends to be erratic and emotionally driven, lacking discipline beyond even that of someone like Tom Paris and the Maquis cre

If you want to die on the hill that's fine, but know that I'm coming, and I'm driving a tank.

Is it wrong that now I want Kim to become an S31 agent?

He and William Boimler!

That's not a bad thought. Harry's career could easily be permanently damaged by a reprimand and seven years of ensignhood. S31 might be a chance at a fresh start.

By the very nature of the circumstances it would have to be a field promotion. That is, Janeway made an independent decision to promote Tuvok while out of contact with Starfleet. That's the text book definition of a field promotion.

Definitely. As was the reactivation of Tom and Chakotay's commissions, and the commissions granted to the Maquis. It was all reviewed upon Voyager's return.

I was pondering merging this topic with the Garret Wang thread, but that's 48 pages long now. Maybe it's time to start anew?

Awww... I once was part of a 1300-post debate on why Ron and Hermione were a perfect/appalling match... I was hoping to break that record here.

None is saying that Harry should have this meteoric rise. Just that remaining Ensign after 4 years, much less 7, is ridiculous. The excuse making to justify it is more amazing.

There are no good excuses, so people have to settle for ridiculous ones.

Harry Kim is such an interesting character, far more than I had realized during Voyager's run. He's so damn good at his job, while being so damn bad at interacting with people.

He's only socially inept, or temperamental, or bratty, or whatever when circumstances require it. In general, he is a competent, well-liked, and well-rounded officer. He's not quite as variable as Janeway is, though.

 

[Lynx]

So much that he let another ensign die so that Harry could live. Another justification bites the dust.



More likely they would review all promotions and field commissions Janeway made upon Voyager's return to Earth. And, review the records of all crew she didn't promote. Realistically, Harry was probably putting on lieutenant pips mere days after Voyager returned, and that's assuming it didn't happen the way Una McCormack says it did, and that Janeway's final act as Voyager's captain was to promote him herself.



Because Voyager was still far from home. Tuvok's new rank was likely to be in effect for years, even decades.



If you want to die on the hill that's fine, but know that I'm coming, and I'm driving a tank.





That's not a bad thought. Harry's career could easily be permanently damaged by a reprimand and seven years of ensignhood. S31 might be a chance at a fresh start.



Definitely. As was the reactivation of Tom and Chakotay's commissions, and the commissions granted to the Maquis. It was all reviewed upon Voyager's return.



Awww... I once was part of a 1300-post debate on why Ron and Hermione were a perfect/appalling match... I was hoping to break that record here.



There are no good excuses, so people have to settle for ridiculous ones.



He's only socially inept, or temperamental, or bratty, or whatever when circumstances require it. In general, he is a competent, well-liked, and well-rounded officer. He's not quite as variable as Janeway is, though.

When it comes to promotions and such after Voyager got home, I go for the solution presented in many of the "Voyager Relaunch" books, that all of them were accepted in Starfleet and kept their ranks or were promoted, Like Chakotay, Torres, Paris and Kim too.

Since they did such a good job for seven years and after all the mess with the Dominion War and everything Starfleet had been through, it is the most logical solution. No organization with at least some sanity dumps a bunch of people who have been doing and still are doing a good job.

 

[Charles Phipps]

When it comes to promotions and such after Voyager got home, I go for the solution presented in many of the "Voyager Relaunch" books, that all of them were accepted in Starfleet and kept their ranks or were promoted, Like Chakotay, Torres, Paris and Kim too.

Since they did such a good job for seven years and after all the mess with the Dominion War and everything Starfleet had been through, it is the most logical solution. No organization with at least some sanity dumps a bunch of people who have been doing and still are doing a good job.

Well we know that Tom Paris was accepted back and made a hero.

That Chakotay was made a captain.

That Seven was treated like scum and driven to the edge of the galaxy to become Han Solo meets Batman.

But Kim? NO ONE KNOWS.

 

[WarpTenLizard]

If memory serves, all of the promotions happened before Voyager made contact with Starfleet, except for Tom getting his old rank back after being demoted. My theory is that Starfleet just told her "no more promotions."

 

[Kor]

We all would have liked to see Harry get promoted. But what would have been the benefit? Generally it seems that full Lieutenants can be department heads. But even as a mere ensign, Harry was already the Operations Officer, and he sat in senior staff meetings as the head of his department. A department of one person? Well, presumably, anyone else who occupied the Ops station on other duty shifts reported to him.

On the Enterprise D, the Operations Officer, Data, was a Lieutenant Commander. In addition to Ops duties, he was also next in chain of command after Riker. Maybe if Harry had gotten a promotion, he would have moved higher up the chain of command, in addition to being Ops Officer.

Kor

 

[Charles Phipps]

We all would have liked to see Harry get promoted. But what would have been the benefit? Generally it seems that full Lieutenants can be department heads. But even as a mere ensign, Harry was already the Operations Officer, and he sat in senior staff meetings as the head of his department. A department of one person? Well, presumably, anyone else who occupied the Ops station on other duty shifts reported to him.

On the Enterprise D, the Operations Officer, Data, was a Lieutenant Commander. In addition to Ops duties, he was also next in chain of command after Riker. Maybe if Harry had gotten a promotion, he would have moved higher up the chain of command, in addition to being Ops Officer.

Kor

A recognition that Harry wasn't the show's resident butt monkey.

 

[fireproof78]

Harry Kim is such an interesting character, far more than I had realized during Voyager's run. He's so damn good at his job, while being so damn bad at interacting with people.

Hmmm...so was another character who started as a lieutenant j.g. and ended up a full lieutenant. So, again, not a reason for lack of promotion.

There are no good excuses, so people have to settle for ridiculous ones.

Yup, and double down on it.

If memory serves, all of the promotions happened before Voyager made contact with Starfleet, except for Tom getting his old rank back after being demoted. My theory is that Starfleet just told her "no more promotions."

Absurd.

But even as a mere ensign, Harry was already the Operations Officer, and he sat in senior staff meetings as the head of his department.

Yup. After 2 years at the position a promotion would make perfect sense. Instead, people look for Harry to be inept.

 

[Oddish]

But Kim? NO ONE KNOWS.

And no one's going to for quite awhile, I wager. The character "belongs" to PRO, but the latest season didn't feature him and it's completely up in the air if Netflix will be interested in actually continuing it. Remember that they basically bought S2 ready made, a pretty good bargain. Making a S3 will require a greater investment.

And if LD is over before his involvement in PRO is sorted out, there will be no more shows set in the timeline he existed in.

My theory is that Starfleet just told her "no more promotions."

Then why didn't she or Harry say as much in "Nightingale" or "Author, Author"?

A department of one person? Well, presumably, anyone else who occupied the Ops station on other duty shifts reported to him.

We know Harry has underlings. Seven, when doing her efficiency report, told him that he wasn't giving them enough work. Don't remember which episode.

Yup. After 2 years at the position a promotion would make perfect sense. Instead, people look for Harry to be inept.

I wonder if Janeway was gaslighting him, telling him how awesome an officer he was and treating him like an incompetent.

 

[Charles Phipps]

And no one's going to for quite awhile, I wager. The character "belongs" to PRO, but the latest season didn't feature him and it's completely up in the air if Netflix will be interested in actually continuing it. Remember that they basically bought S2 ready made, a pretty good bargain. Making a S3 will require a greater investment.

And if LD is over before his involvement in PRO is sorted out, there will be no more shows set in the timeline he existed in.

Depends on Legacy. You could easily have him show up as an Ensign on Seven's ship and she's like, "I didn't know you were here!"

"I've been trapped in a holodeck for twenty years!"

 

[Oddish]

Depends on Legacy. You could easily have him show up as an Ensign on Seven's ship and she's like, "I didn't know you were here!"

Or captain of the Rhode Island.

That was his ship in both Endgame and Online.

 

[fireproof78]

I wonder if Janeway was gaslighting him, telling him how awesome an officer he was and treating him like an incompetent.

Then she is a poor manager, and Chakotay is poor for not calling out. Promotion criteria should not be a mystery and personal growth is part of humanity's drive forward so stymieing him for any reason makes no sense.