Harrasment

[Misfit Toy]

To be fair, most of this entire discussion has been a gross oversimplification of a very complex issue that needs to be approached on a case-by-case basis.

I can agree with that.

 

[Misfit Toy]

It's most certainly not shifting the blame. And your attemot to link me to abuse is unbecoming of most people. Most.

Even that post represents shifting the blame. What part of "I'm not suggesting that YOU are an abuser" do you find unclear?

 

[iguana_tonante]

Ok, I'm going to skip the rest of your post as it basically amounts to us barking at each other over things we cannot possibly reconcile. I type sh1t and assh0le and f*ck out of habit, get over it.

I surely can, but it's still irking. I speak Italian 24/7 out of habit, but I'm using your language to communicate with you. So it's not like you can't change if you want.

I NEVER accused the harassed of any wrongdoing, so I don't know where this particular brand of hostility is coming from. I'm aware that I've made some hostile statements, and I'm prepared to defend them fully, but you're accusing me of things I haven't even said.

You never accused the harassed of any wrongdoing, except of being "weak", and so making themselves into victims. Be weak, and you will be preyed upon. Which, as unfortunate the association it may sound to you, is just an inch away from saying that "she asked for that".

When I said "it's only true when it's convenient" I wasn't referring to sexual harassment. I was simply referring to exactly what I said, sexual equality is very often only insisted upon when it's convenient for women.

Well, duh. Since women are the overwhelming majority of people subjected to sexual discrimination, it's a fair assessment to say that they would be the ones most probably raising the issue. It's like complaining that people that get robbed are the one that get more often to call the police. Again, duh.
And, as rarely as it is, sexual equality lawsuits has been raised also in case of men's discrimination, so it's not like unheard of.

Now, I'm not crying foul here or anything... clearly, men have had it pretty damn easy compared to women. But swinging the pendulum the other direction doesn't amount to progress. The pendulum obviously isn't on the opposite side yet, and won't be for a while, women still endure discrimination on many levels, but I'm afraid that SOMETIMES there are double standards on both sides.

Of course it's not a perfect system, but it's still the best we have now. Take down the protections, and society will go back 50 years: you can't cancel thousands of years of repression with a single swing of a sponge.

In NC, a woman can kill a man because she SUSPECTS that he wanted to rape her. Yes, it's that simple. Now, can I say the same thing and kill someone? Of course not.

And yet, a lot more women get raped by men than men got killed erroneously by women in unnecessary self-defence. So, as uneasy as the protections make you, they are not abused in any significant way.

See... that's what I'm referring to. I'm not making giant blanket statements about reverse-sexism or anything, just pointing out that the feminist movement in our society has some pretty bassackwards stances on things.

I agree, but I don't think there is a way around it.

 

[iguana_tonante]

To be fair, most of this entire discussion has been a gross oversimplification of a very complex issue that needs to be approached on a case-by-case basis.

Which is what I've been saying all along.

I'd tell the person who got hit by the car not to stand in the middle of the street in the future.

It's the fact that you're simplifying it to that which makes people frustrated.

I'm not the one that drew the analogy.

No, you are the one that took it into, well, let's see...

Shifting. Again. The blame. To the victim.

Do I have to spell it more clearly for you?

 

[TheLonelySquire]

To be fair, most of this entire discussion has been a gross oversimplification of a very complex issue that needs to be approached on a case-by-case basis.

Which is what I've been saying all along.

It's the fact that you're simplifying it to that which makes people frustrated.

I'm not the one that drew the analogy.

No, you are the one that took it into, well, let's see...

Shifting. Again. The blame. To the victim.

Do I have to spell it more clearly for you?

Asking people to help themselves is not shifting blame. It's adulthood.

 

[iguana_tonante]

Asking people to help themselves is not shifting blame. It's adulthood.

And I suppose that if you can't help yourself, you deserve what you get. Ok.

Funny how people how say that are the ones that don't have to face the problems...

 

[TheLonelySquire]

Asking people to help themselves is not shifting blame. It's adulthood.

And I suppose that if you can't help yourself, you deserve what you get. Ok.

Funny how people how say that are the ones that don't have to face the problems...

When did I ever say the victims deserve any abuse? Never did and never will because they do not.

 

[Misfit Toy]

Asking people to help themselves is not shifting blame. It's adulthood.

And I suppose that if you can't help yourself, you deserve what you get. Ok.

Funny how people how say that are the ones that don't have to face the problems...

When did I ever say the victims deserve any abuse? Never did and never will because they do not.

No, the first question, and often the only question, that leaps to mind is: "Why doesn't she leave?"

This question, which we can't seem to stop asking, is not a real question. It doesn't call for an answer; it makes a judgement. It mystifies. It transforms an immense social problem into a personal transaction, and at the same time pins responsibility squarely on the victim. It obliterates both the terrible magnitude of violence against women and the great achievements of the movement against it. It simultaneously suggests two ideas, both of them false: that help is readily available to all worthy victims (which is to say, victims who leave),and that this victim is not one of them.

Link.

Here's another bit of good information:

Women often don't leave domestic violence because they know that when they do leave the danger of more severe violence increases dramatically. Violence, and the sheer terror of it, is one of the principle reasons women don't leave. And the women are right!

Fact: When domestic violence victims attempt to leave the relationship, the stalking and violence almost always escalates sharply as the perpetrator attempts to regain control.

Fact: The majority of domestic violence homicides occur as a woman attempts to leave or after she has left.

Fact: The most serious domestic violence injuries are perpetrated against women who have separated from the perpetrator.

The women know these dangers. They know them because they've already experienced the violent responses when they've attempted to assert themselves, even minimally, within the relationship. They know because the perpetrators have usually threatened precisely what they intend to if she does try to leave.

Link.

 

[TheLonelySquire]

And I suppose that if you can't help yourself, you deserve what you get. Ok.

Funny how people how say that are the ones that don't have to face the problems...

When did I ever say the victims deserve any abuse? Never did and never will because they do not.

No, the first question, and often the only question, that leaps to mind is: "Why doesn't she leave?"

This question, which we can't seem to stop asking, is not a real question. It doesn't call for an answer; it makes a judgement. It mystifies. It transforms an immense social problem into a personal transaction, and at the same time pins responsibility squarely on the victim. It obliterates both the terrible magnitude of violence against women and the great achievements of the movement against it. It simultaneously suggests two ideas, both of them false: that help is readily available to all worthy victims (which is to say, victims who leave),and that this victim is not one of them.

Link.

Here's another bit of good information:

Women often don't leave domestic violence because they know that when they do leave the danger of more severe violence increases dramatically. Violence, and the sheer terror of it, is one of the principle reasons women don't leave. And the women are right!

Fact: When domestic violence victims attempt to leave the relationship, the stalking and violence almost always escalates sharply as the perpetrator attempts to regain control.

Fact: The majority of domestic violence homicides occur as a woman attempts to leave or after she has left.

Fact: The most serious domestic violence injuries are perpetrated against women who have separated from the perpetrator.

The women know these dangers. They know them because they've already experienced the violent responses when they've attempted to assert themselves, even minimally, within the relationship. They know because the perpetrators have usually threatened precisely what they intend to if she does try to leave.

Link.

So are you going to show me where I said she deserves any abuse? Because you haven't quoted me as saying so.

 

[UssGlenn]

In NC, a woman can kill a man because she SUSPECTS that he wanted to rape her. Yes, it's that simple. Now, can I say the same thing and kill someone? Of course not.

And yet, a lot more women get raped by men than men got killed erroneously by women in unnecessary self-defence. So, as uneasy as the protections make you, they are not abused in any significant way.

Woah, wait a minute, what's the line about it being better to let a guilty man go free than to punish an innocent man? Considering the permanence of death, we can't afford to let this be abused at all.

 

[Misfit Toy]

So are you going to show me where I said she deserves any abuse? Because you haven't quoted me as saying so.

No, I'm not going to show you where you said that - I never claimed that you did. Are you going to try to blame-shift in every post?

 

[TheLonelySquire]

So are you going to show me where I said she deserves any abuse? Because you haven't quoted me as saying so.

No, I'm not going to show you where you said that - I never claimed that you did. Are you going to try to blame-shift in every post?

The next one would be the first one.

 

[Misfit Toy]

So are you going to show me where I said she deserves any abuse? Because you haven't quoted me as saying so.

No, I'm not going to show you where you said that - I never claimed that you did. Are you going to try to blame-shift in every post?

The next one would be the first one.

Bull. You've accused me of trolling you, linking you to abuse and now you're attributing false claims to me. I've explained and given links to show how your statement "However, the person being abused shouldn't expect different results if they stay with the abuser." IS shifting the blame, yet instead of defending your post, you choose to make accusations. If you aren't interested in discussing the issue, don't pollute the thread with games.

 

[iguana_tonante]

Asking people to help themselves is not shifting blame. It's adulthood.

And I suppose that if you can't help yourself, you deserve what you get. Ok.

When did I ever say the victims deserve any abuse? Never did and never will because they do not.

Sorry, but from my point of view, you are just tiptoeing around the issue.

You say that people should help themselves. The next logical step is that, if they don't, the consequences are their fault. There is not much escaping from it: if you should so something, and you don't, the consequence are your fault. It just works like that.

You take the first step, but refuse to assume responsibility for the next. You can't stop the reasoning just because you don't like the conclusions.

Or you refrain from taking the first step, or you assume full responsibility for the conclusions that follows logically from your premises.

 

[TheLonelySquire]

No, I'm not going to show you where you said that - I never claimed that you did. Are you going to try to blame-shift in every post?

The next one would be the first one.

Bull. You've accused me of trolling you, linking you to abuse and now you're attributing false claims to me. I've explained and given links to show how your statement "However, the person being abused shouldn't expect different results if they stay with the abuser." IS shifting the blame, yet instead of defending your post, you choose to make accusations. If you aren't interested in discussing the issue, don't pollute the thread with games.

The comment you are referencing is not shifting the blame. It is reality. It in no way is meant to lay blame on the victim. I hope this clarifies it for you. And I discussed the issue. You just didn't like hearing what I said.

 

[TheLonelySquire]

And I suppose that if you can't help yourself, you deserve what you get. Ok.

When did I ever say the victims deserve any abuse? Never did and never will because they do not.

Sorry, but from my point of view, you are just tiptoeing around the issue.

You say that people should help themselves. The next logical step is that, if they don't, the consequences are their fault. There is not much escaping from it: if you should so something, and you don't, the consequence are your fault. It just works like that.

You take the first step, but refuse to assume responsibility for the next. You can't stop the reasoning just because you don't like the conclusions.

Or you refrain from taking the first step, or you assume full responsibility for the conclusions that follows logically from your premises.

That is YOUR reasoning, not mine. You are welcome to believe it is the victim who should be blamed, but I do not.

I simply believe that to stay in a bad situation invites the same behavior. I wouldn't call the victim responsible for the crime, but I would call them less than intelligent for expecting different results.

 

[iguana_tonante]

That is YOUR reasoning, not mine. You are welcome to believe it is the victim who should be blamed, but I do not.

Actually, I would support that it is the logical reasoning, not mine or yours.

I simply believe that to stay in a bad situation invites the same behavior. I wouldn't call the victim responsible for the crime, but I would call them less than intelligent for expecting different results.

Bah. I'm befuddled. I don't really the difference. If you think that abused people are "less than intelligent" for not being able at disentangling themselves from that situation (and yes, we all know how easy is that, and that there is no risk at all involved, as presented in many previous posts), then you think that it's their damned fault.

Or maybe you think that abused people are just stupid. Is that what are you saying?

 

[Misfit Toy]

The next one would be the first one.

Bull. You've accused me of trolling you, linking you to abuse and now you're attributing false claims to me. I've explained and given links to show how your statement "However, the person being abused shouldn't expect different results if they stay with the abuser." IS shifting the blame, yet instead of defending your post, you choose to make accusations. If you aren't interested in discussing the issue, don't pollute the thread with games.

The comment you are referencing is not shifting the blame. It is reality. It in no way is meant to lay blame on the victim. I hope this clarifies it for you. And I discussed the issue. You just didn't like hearing what I said.

It doesn't matter whether you meant to lay blame, the fact remains that you did, by asking "Why don't these women just stand up for themselves?"
As was said in one article:

It simultaneously suggests two ideas, both of them false: that help is readily available to all worthy victims (which is to say, victims who leave),and that this victim is not one of them.

 

[TheLonelySquire]

That is YOUR reasoning, not mine. You are welcome to believe it is the victim who should be blamed, but I do not.

Actually, I would support that it is the logical reasoning, not mine or yours.

I simply believe that to stay in a bad situation invites the same behavior. I wouldn't call the victim responsible for the crime, but I would call them less than intelligent for expecting different results.

Bah. I'm befuddled. I don't really the difference. If you think that abused people are "less than intelligent" for not being able at disentangling themselves from that situation (and yes, we all know how easy is that, and that there is no risk at all involved, as presented in many previous posts), then you think that it's their damned fault.

Or maybe you think that abused people are just stupid. Is that what are you saying?

Yes. I believe that an abused person who remains in an abusive relationship is acting stupidly. They aren't responsible because only the perpetrator can be held responsible. But they ARE stupid.

 

[TheLonelySquire]

Bull. You've accused me of trolling you, linking you to abuse and now you're attributing false claims to me. I've explained and given links to show how your statement "However, the person being abused shouldn't expect different results if they stay with the abuser." IS shifting the blame, yet instead of defending your post, you choose to make accusations. If you aren't interested in discussing the issue, don't pollute the thread with games.

The comment you are referencing is not shifting the blame. It is reality. It in no way is meant to lay blame on the victim. I hope this clarifies it for you. And I discussed the issue. You just didn't like hearing what I said.

It doesn't matter whether you meant to lay blame, the fact remains that you did, by asking "Why don't these women just stand up for themselves?"
As was said in one article:

It simultaneously suggests two ideas, both of them false: that help is readily available to all worthy victims (which is to say, victims who leave),and that this victim is not one of them.

Hey, you can believe whatever article you wish. I myself believe that help is available to anyone who wishes to extracate themselves from a potentially life threatening situation. That's why we have police and restraining orders and why we're allowed to carry personal firearms. At least in my country.