Harrasment

[Shaw]

Yes, I do feel that human beings are inherently greedy and selfish. It's people like you who turn that into a bad thing. Everything you do, you do for a selfish reason. You donate to charity because it makes you feel noble, you help the environment so that YOUR planet survives for YOUR children to enjoy, you defend the weak so that they'll thank YOU.

Funny, I don't recall expressing anything similar to that so one has to assume you are guessing here (or maybe projecting).

But my position still stands... you either do the right thing because it is the right thing to do, or you haven't actually done the right thing. If you've done it for any other reason, then you didn't do it because it was the right thing to do.

Intentions matter. Bad people do good things all the time for the wrong reasons (some form of self benefit). The only true good deeds are the ones that gain you nothing (and actually exact some form of cost).

From what you've said, you are incapable of such an act.

I'm actually a very nice guy...

Just not in this thread?

I get the strong impression that you are (or have been at some point) someone who harasses others. Why else would you feel inclined to defend the position of the harasser.

If nothing else you've given us all a glimpse into the mind set (and self justification) of the type of people who do these things. And for that I thank you.

 

[Sephiroth]

wow, lotta douchebags on this board

 

[RJDiogenes]

^^ Cool it with that, please.

So if helping others made you feel horrible inside, you'd still do it?

If caring about others made you suffer, you still would?

Yup, Human Beings do stuff like that all the time. As I said earlier, I quit my job because the hospital was covering up the abuse of women; now I'm making about half of what I used to. Every second of every day, people sacrifice their money, their time, their convenience, and even their lives for family friends and complete strangers. Sorry to disillusion you, but Humanity is a noble species.

 

[Sephiroth]

^what you need to do is get some of the harassed hospital employees and speak to a local investigative reporter, let them tell thier stories

 

[RJDiogenes]

Yeah, I suggested that, but they were reluctant enough to bring lawsuits. We'll see.

 

[Sephiroth]

it will be the best thing for them, and the hospital will be so quick to settle they could negotiate some realy decent terms

 

[SomniumRabidum]

Yup, Human Beings do stuff like that all the time. As I said earlier, I quit my job because the hospital was covering up the abuse of women; now I'm making about half of what I used to. Every second of every day, people sacrifice their money, their time, their convenience, and even their lives for family friends and complete strangers. Sorry to disillusion you, but Humanity is a noble species.

You're not understanding me here. People do good things all the time, making the world a much better place to live in.

Yes, this is human nature.

But why? The answer is that doing the "right thing" makes you feel like a good person. You feel very good about taking a stand against the hospital and the corruption you found there. And what's wrong with feeling good about having done something good? Nothing, obviously.

Donating to charity, helping those in need, working for a better environment, etc., all these things not only help those intended but also make YOU feel good.

If anyone needs to be brought down to reality, it's you. This is the way human beings work. Whether you're doing something "good" or doing something "bad" you're doing it because you're going to reap some kind of benefit, whether it's a direct reward or indirect feeling of righteousness.

 

[SomniumRabidum]

I get the strong impression that you are (or have been at some point) someone who harasses others. Why else would you feel inclined to defend the position of the harasser.

Absolutely not. Feel free to think what you will of me, that's the beauty of the internet, but deriving from my statements that I am a "harasser" is ridiculous.

I never defended the accused harassers. I was simply making a point about the ludicrous nature of asking questions like "Why, oh why are people so mean to one another." This is the way of the world, it's always been that way and will continue to be that way for the rest of time. We can, and will, constantly strive to improve the world around us, but the drive of SOME people to inflict pain and suffering on others will never fully be defeated.

Good people fight against injustice and inequality, whether with direct action or simply by living a good life. All I'm saying is that the "good people" are benefiting from their actions. It doesn't make their actions any less good, especially when the rewards their reaping are not much more than a good feeling about their place in the world.

Enough with the personal insults please. We're arriving at an impasse because we have differing views of the intrinsic nature of mankind. What we can both agree on is the world needs good people in it. I completely disagree with most of your posts, but I don't think you're a bad person, I ask that you extend me that same courtesy.

I've been up to my neck in textbooks and papers for the last week. I'm crankier than usual. I'm sorry if I came off harsher than I intended. I stand firmly by my stances and the points I've made, but I admit I could have, and should have, made them with a little less hostility.

 

[Venardhi]

Your argument is that there are no good people, just people who do good things.

Feeling good about doing good things is not the same thing as doing good things to feel good about them.

 

[SomniumRabidum]

Your argument is that there are no good people, just people who do good things.
Feeling good about doing good things is not the same thing as doing good things to feel good about them.

I disagree. You don't feel good about doing good things because of some fluke coincidence. You're not a moron, and you're not a child, you know what makes you feel good and what doesn't.

If you are in fact a good person, you've no doubt done good things in your life and experienced good feelings as a result.

You're conditioned from a young age to feel good about doing good things and to feel bad about doing bad things. So throughout your life you'll most likely continue to pursue those good feelings by.... you guessed it.... doing good things.

It absolutely does not mean that there are no good people. Once again, you're trying to draw some comparison between wanting to feel good and being a bad person. There's nothing wrong with feeling good about doing good things.

If doing something good made you suffer, you wouldn't do it. If no one would ever know you did it, you'd receive zero thanks, and it would make you feel bad inside, you would not do it.

Mother Theresa knew she would become a saint, and she "knew" that she was securing a place in heaven. Am I making some outrageous claim about Mother Theresa being a bad person? Obviously not, she was an incredible person who did amazing things, but don't think for a second that if you took away heaven and the good feelings you get from helping people that she'd still have done it.

 

[TheLonelySquire]

The bottom line though is, she let herself be abused. Do you understand where I'm coming from or no?

One of the reasons that more women don't come forward is attitudes like this.

Hey, it's the truth.

 

[TheLonelySquire]

My girlfriend was in a very unhealthy, abusive relationship before she was with me. He not only abused her emotionally and verbally, but physically as well. Something would go wrong, and it was always her fault. They would have plans to do something, and it was always what he wanted to do. She tried to leave him once, and he attacked her, and then threatened to hurt himself if he left her. Long story short, the guy was fucked up in the head. However, she stuck with him because he had lowered her self esteem to a degree that she didn't think she could do any better...until luckily I came along and showed her she didn't need to put up with his crap. I told her that even if she didn't want to be with me that I thought she should get away from him and she was finally able to summon the courage to leave him. We're now together and he's now off trying to join the Marines or something, but I doubt they'll take him, even though he could really use their influence.

Okay, I'm going to say this as respectfully as I can. The ex-bf was wrong because he's an abusive loser. Your gf was wrong for not standing up for herself and getting out of there the MOMENT she was first abused. His problems are not hers. They were not married and even if they were she should never have put up with that for a second. And God bless you for offering her no strings attached help.

The bottom line though is, she let herself be abused. Do you understand where I'm coming from or no?

You must have missed the part where I said she tried to break up with him, and he attacked her, then threatened to take his own life if she ever left him. Add that to the fact that she had incredibly low self esteem at the time and thought that he was the only chance she had to be with anyone and that was just how her life was going to be, and you can easily see why she didn't do anything about it. It was only when she saw that someone cared about her, someone who would never even think of harming her, that she realized that what he was doing to her was wrong and that she had to get out. It wasn't an easy process, as he didn't give up easily (in fact we're still dealing with him and his inability to let her go) but she's a million times happier now...and that's because someone helped her.

If we all just turn a blind eye to this kind of thing, pretend that its okay or just blame the victims, then people like her ex will continue to get away with manipulating and abusing people like my girlfriend, and if those women are anything like her, they don't deserve that kind of treatment. Nobody does.

No, I didn't miss that part at all. If you want to leave someone you leave them. You don't try to leave them. If they attack you you have them arrested and get a restraining order and some additional protection. This is how a grown, mature person would handle it. If he threatens to kill himself she should have reported it to the police so they could have gotten him some help. So no, I cannot easily see why she didn't do anything about it.

And I am not blaming her for his abuse of her. It's horrible. All I'm saying is that she allowed it to continue. Did she not?

 

[Shaw]

So if helping others made you feel horrible inside, you'd still do it?

If caring about others made you suffer, you still would?

Everything you do, you do for a selfish reason. You donate to charity because it makes you feel noble, you help the environment so that YOUR planet survives for YOUR children to enjoy, you defend the weak so that they'll thank YOU.

If doing something good made you suffer, you wouldn't do it. If no one would ever know you did it, you'd receive zero thanks, and it would make you feel bad inside, you would not do it.

The sooner you admit that all these statements are actually how you live your life and have nothing to do with the people you are talking to, the sooner you'll understand that not everyone is as shallow as you are.

Sounds like you're pretty young, so maybe you haven't lived enough life to know any better. I've lived a reasonable period and have had to make countless choices where doing the right thing was not pleasant, was not easy, was not recognized, went unthanked, resulted in hardships (sometimes for both myself and my wife) and in some cases scared the living daylights out of me. In the real world, doing the right thing is thankless, it is hard and in some cases you have to fight against the impulse to take the easier path.

You, SomniumRabidum, will do good things for selfish reasons. You, SomniumRabidum, will avoid doing the right things if it'll bring you any form of distress or lacks a reward. That is you.

Fair enough.

But please stop projecting your limited values onto others in this thread. If you are going to continue to make statements such as those quoted above, please direct them at the person they actually describe, you. And stop implying that others who disagree with you share in your weak standards.

Enough with the personal insults please.

If you find your own thesis applied to you insulting, maybe you should rethink it. At the very least you should recognize that your application of it to others is just as insulting to them.

 

[pookha]

No, I didn't miss that part at all. If you want to leave someone you leave them. You don't try to leave them. If they attack you you have them arrested and get a restraining order and some additional protection. This is how a grown, mature person would handle it. If he threatens to kill himself she should have reported it to the police so they could have gotten him some help. So no, I cannot easily see why she didn't do anything about it.

And I am not blaming her for his abuse of her. It's horrible. All I'm saying is that she allowed it to continue. Did she not?

a lot of women are all to aware that the most dangerous time for them is after they leave.
this is when most women are killed.

it dosnt mean they shouldnt leave but it makes it more understanable why it can be so hard on top of that they have been through often years of being emotionally and mentally toyed with.

 

[RJDiogenes]

I disagree. You don't feel good about doing good things because of some fluke coincidence. You're not a moron, and you're not a child, you know what makes you feel good and what doesn't.

The sooner you admit that all these statements are actually how you live your life and have nothing to do with the people you are talking to, the sooner you'll understand that not everyone is as shallow as you are.

Cool it down, please, both of you.

If doing something good made you suffer, you wouldn't do it. If no one would ever know you did it, you'd receive zero thanks, and it would make you feel bad inside, you would not do it.

As I explained before, this is incorrect. People suffer on behalf of others all the time and do many good things anonymously. That's where the term "Unsung Heroes" comes from. People help others not to make themselves feel good, but because they don't like to see other people hurt. It's a Human quality called "Empathy." You obviously have a lot invested in your cynical pose, and it's certainly very fashionable, but Humanity is not even close to the way you want it to be.

 

[TheLonelySquire]

No, I didn't miss that part at all. If you want to leave someone you leave them. You don't try to leave them. If they attack you you have them arrested and get a restraining order and some additional protection. This is how a grown, mature person would handle it. If he threatens to kill himself she should have reported it to the police so they could have gotten him some help. So no, I cannot easily see why she didn't do anything about it.

And I am not blaming her for his abuse of her. It's horrible. All I'm saying is that she allowed it to continue. Did she not?

a lot of women are all to aware that the most dangerous time for them is after they leave.
this is when most women are killed.

it dosnt mean they shouldnt leave but it makes it more understanable why it can be so hard on top of that they have been through often years of being emotionally and mentally toyed with.

While I completely understand your opinion in reality it makes no logical sense to stay with someone who is an abuser.

 

[Misfit Toy]

The bottom line though is, she let herself be abused. Do you understand where I'm coming from or no?

One of the reasons that more women don't come forward is attitudes like this.

Hey, it's the truth.

Shifting the blame to the abused is, as I said initially, uninformed and insulting. It's also a pattern that shows up in many abusers. Of course, I'm not suggesting that YOU are an abuser.

 

[iguana_tonante]

You obviously have a lot invested in your cynical pose, and it's certainly very fashionable, but Humanity is not even close to the way you want it to be.

As someone that had invested a lot in my cynical pose, I agree with that. I used to agree with Somnium, but growing older I started to change my stance about the fundamental nature of mankind.

One of the reasons that more women don't come forward is attitudes like this.

Hey, it's the truth.

Shifting the blame to the abused is, as I said initially, uninformed and insulting. It's also a pattern that shows up in many abusers. Of course, I'm not suggesting that YOU are an abuser.

No, but most likely he is one who was never harassed, and still feel the need to be judgmental about that. Let's hear about the time when he was a woman in an abusive relationship and how he got free using his superior intellect, and then he can be all haughty about that.

 

[SomniumRabidum]

Sounds like you're pretty young, so maybe you haven't lived enough life to know any better. I've lived a reasonable period and have had to make countless choices where doing the right thing was not pleasant, was not easy, was not recognized, went unthanked, resulted in hardships (sometimes for both myself and my wife) and in some cases scared the living daylights out of me. In the real world, doing the right thing is thankless, it is hard and in some cases you have to fight against the impulse to take the easier path.

Well gee, that's strange. You sound pretty pleased with yourself. As a matter of fact, I'd venture so far as to say that you're proud of the fact that you've lived a good life and done the right thing whenever possible.

Once again... is there anything wrong with that? No. You should be proud of the fact that, in spite of the "hardships" you've endured as a result, you continued to do the right thing. But don't pretend you don't feel good about it, you're not fooling anyone.

No, I'm not young, I've experienced more in my life than I care to mention. You're naivety is evidence of your immaturity if anything.

You, SomniumRabidum, will do good things for selfish reasons. You, SomniumRabidum, will avoid doing the right things if it'll bring you any form of distress or lacks a reward. That is you.

No, assh0le. You either A) can't read, or B) just enjoy arguing about this.

Any form of distress? Did I read that right?!

We all do things that cause us distress, in order to benefit others. Well, most of us do anyways. But we get SOMETHING out of it, some good feeling of accomplishment. The suffering surely outweighs the reward most of the time, but the reward is STILL THERE.

Just because you choose to do the right thing in spite of hardship doesn't mean you won't feel good about it afterward. As a matter of fact, you may even enter an internet forum and brag about what a martyr you are .

But please stop projecting your limited values onto others in this thread. If you are going to continue to make statements such as those quoted above, please direct them at the person they actually describe, you. And stop implying that others who disagree with you share in your weak standards.

Grow up, please. Seriously, I have no idea where you're getting this sh1t. Your idealistic naivety is stunning to say the least.

 

[SomniumRabidum]

As I explained before, this is incorrect. People suffer on behalf of others all the time and do many good things anonymously. That's where the term "Unsung Heroes" comes from. People help others not to make themselves feel good, but because they don't like to see other people hurt. It's a Human quality called "Empathy." You obviously have a lot invested in your cynical pose, and it's certainly very fashionable, but Humanity is not even close to the way you want it to be.

Ugh, this is getting old, for both of us I'm sure....

Once again, it's not always a direct reward. You don't set out to do something good all the while thinking "I can't wait to reap the benefits of this". THAT would be pretty damn insensitive.

You've been conditioned throughout your life to do the right thing. You've felt good about doing those things. Bringing other people joy is a feel-good activity, there's NOTHING wrong with that.

So, when you do the "right thing" you do it knowing subconsciously that you'll feel good about it later. You won't sit around reveling in your sacrifice or anything ridiculously shallow like that, but you'll take some small comfort in the fact that you've done something good for others.

And yes, I'm familiar with empathy. You people can't wait to label me as someone with no values, it's sad. You can't handle that maybe, just maybe, you enjoy feeling like a good person. Does that make you a bad person? NO!

The funny part of this whole argument is that I'm willing to bet, just about anything, that I've done far more for my fellow man than 95% of people here. I volunteer, I donate to charity, and I go out of my way on a regular basis to help others when I can. The difference is, I know that it makes me feel good. I feel good knowing that I've helped that person out. I don't require thanks, it just feels good to be a "good person".

I mean, has NO ONE EVER read a book about the intrinsic value of man? Either you're all far too old to remember this, and you've spent the last few decades sinking into your limited viewpoints, or you're far too young to understand what I'm saying. Perhaps I'm just not making myself clear, but I don't know what else I can say....