Great episodes with ONE moment that make you cringe

[Nerys Myk]

Then I think it's wrong for you to say it was "not that either" as if you had canon facts to the contrary. After all, I only said I had heard that, and I have, and you don't have canon facts to disprove it. Though you could certainly say the assertion is not canon fact.

However, I would surmise Andorians, Tellarites, Vulcans and most other Federation citizens wishing to serve in Starfleet do not go the Earth's space academy, or Starfleet academy on Earth, but have their own schools - at least at first, possibly like undergraduate work, or a year or two of general education. I'm fairly sure all Federation academies would adhere to certain Federation principles and agreements and require minimum standards, but I think it somewhat arrogant to assume everyone wishing to serve in starfleet has to come to and go through Earth's Starfleet academy the whole time and nothing they have learned at home counts. Though I do also suppose they could take entrance exams and be placed in more advanced classes and skip the stuff they demonstrate a working knowledge of already, too, but if so, then they didn't really go all the way through Starfleet Academy, like Spock did.

We've never really seen these schools on other homewards, but I'd wager they'd be far more home-race-centric, just as Earth's doubtlessly teach much of Earth's history and human ways of thinking. What we share in common, Federation ideals, of course, would be required course work in all Federation schools.

Now maybe other races have to come to Earth, and maybe every Federation member is fine with that, but it seems wrong and unlikely, and ultimately, impractical.

We do know non-Federation members have to be sponsored, and I suspect they'd start going to the home world schools of the sponsor before moving on to more advanced training on Earth, assuming they don't wash out in the first two years of general education.

But the thing about Spock is he left Vulcan early on, mostly due to his half human heritage and resistance to Vulcan snobbery (if some are to be believed), but it was against his father's wishes when he chose to go to Earth and Starfleet academy there, instead of the vulcan Science Academy, so he could well have been the first to do that.

As for the crew of the Intrepid, I'd expect most of them graduated from The Vulcan Science Academy (VSA). After all, all Vulcans who had ever qualified to go there did go there, until Spock. Are you saying no one aboard the Intrepid qualified to go to the Vulcan Science Academy? Or they did, but just went to Starfleet when much older, having already graduated from the VSA and learned most everything Starfleet Academy could teach them anyway, at least for the beginning 2 or 3 years of a 4-year stint?

Well, it's not like I have canon fact to prove any of that, either, but I don't find it odd or unlikely Spock was the first vulcan to go to Starfleet academy on earth, go through the entire 4-year course, and graduate. And then he was under the command of Captain Pike for something like 11 or 13 years? Anyway, there would be plenty of time after that for hundreds of vulcans to go through the academy on earth for the full 4 years, too, if that's an absolute requirement, and still fully man a Constitution Class Starship permanently assigned to the VSA and the planet Vulcan. I'd just prefer the assumption most of those simply went through and graduated from the VSA to qualify for a berth on that ship. If they had to finish up at Starfleet Academy on Earth, then so be it, but to demand they do the full 4-years regardless of what they already learned elsewhere is just so much harder to believe. And for officers on the Intrepid, I bet there would be no problem using experienced members of the Vulcan space fleet, whatever it was called, and many of them may have never stepped foot inside the Starfleet Academy schools on Earth.

That's a lot of what ifs and maybes. All I'm saying is no where does it say Spock is the first Vulcan to graduate from or attend the Academy. It's also well established over the course of four series and several movies that people from all over the Federation and even beyond attend the Academy on Earth and it is the primary training facility for the UFP's Starfleet. Just as people from all over the United States go to West Point or one the other US Military Academies rather than attending one in their own states. I'm sure that's true in other countries too. Remember a trip from Vulcan to Earth in the 23rd Century is no different than a trip from California to New York is today.

It seems pretty clear that the VSA is something quite different that Starfleet Academy. And Spock's choice is akin to choosing West Point instead of MIT, rather than West Point instead of Annapolis or MIT instead Harvard.

 

[JRTStarlight]

For all we know, these "Federation" facilities are all over the place and on many planets, and interconnected via subspace channels, and might be more learn at home or learn at local facilities, but they are still considered "Starfleet Academy." I would certainly think with hologram tech there would have to be far more remote lecture halls where it might be possible for thousands of students to attend one lecture. Going to some physical facility may be a thing of the past for most, not all, but most classes. Don't go to class - just plug yourself in, put on your holo-helmet, and watch it live so you may remotely participate, or watch the rerun where you can't participate, but it's still better than missing the lecture.

 

[JRTStarlight]

That's a lot of what ifs and maybes.

Conditional statements in speculations are hardly uncommon, but they are important to note, lest one think you are speaking from facts and you can prove every assertion you have made.

All I'm saying is nowhere does it say Spock is the first Vulcan to graduate from or attend the Academy.

I don't remember where or even when I first heard that or read it, but it's not like I am saying it must be true. Only that it seemed reasonable then, and still does. I whole-heartedly invite anyone to present canon to refute it, of course.

It's also well established over the course of four series and several movies that people from all over the Federation and even beyond attend the Academy on Earth and it is the primary training facility for the UFP's Starfleet.

Yes, many students for many reasons choose to attend colleges far from home, and showing us thousands of examples of that still wouldn't prove every person in Starfleet went to Earth's Starfleet Academy.

Just as people from all over the United States go to West Point or one of the other US Military Academies rather than attending one in their own states. I'm sure that's true in other countries too. Remember a trip from Vulcan to Earth in the 23rd Century is no different than a trip from California to New York is today.

I think it would be, and would takes much longer, too. Days. In NuTrek, well, you can just beam there, probably, and since everything seems free, you can go home for lunch everyday, too.

Or not.

It seems pretty clear that the VSA is something quite different than Starfleet Academy. And Spock's choice is akin to choosing West Point instead of MIT, rather than West Point instead of Annapolis or MIT instead Harvard.

Exactly what the VSA teaches is a little vague. I've not heard of a more military type facility on Vulcan, but then as a bunch of pacifists, that doesn't shock me. It may even by why Sarek disapproved of his son's choice to go to that earth school and join a more paramilitary type organization.

But the Vulcans did seem to have a space service. It may be different from the VSA, but since it does seem to exist (for who else was training their space people?) I suspect most Vulcans on the Intrepid came from there, or went through there.

But I can't prove that, either. I just find it arrogant and impractical to think everyone in Starfleet spent 4 years at Earth's Starfleet Academy.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

That sentence is actually hard to follow.

Anyway, IMO, one may speculate about the Trek universe all they want, and unless another is in possession of canonical facts to contradict that speculation, I think it's wrong to say or even suggest they are "wrong" or that is "not true" when couched as a statement of fact. I would be acceptable, however, to point out that speculation is not supported by canon facts, or even that you feel or think it is wrong as a matter of opinion.

Your statement "not that either" suggested you had facts to back it up, so I asked what you had. A statement, "I don't think that's the case, either," is less definitive and doesn't really suggest you are in possession of canon facts that contradict the assertion.

Well, first of all, @Nerys Myk and I are two different posters.

And secondly, if something isn't in canon, then there's nothing to cite in support of the assertion that it's not in canon, except all of canon.

 

[JRTStarlight]

Sorry for the confusion.

If something isn't canon, there may be plenty of things in canon to support a suggestion that something is true, or could be true. You just can't claim it is canon fact.

But to tell somebody something is NOT that, I would think, would take canon fact to show it was not or could not be. Even just showing it probably isn't true based on canon isn't as strong a statement.

 

[Nightdiamond]

That Which Survives-- Sulu to the hologram woman threatening him --- "Stop or I'll shoot! I don't want to have to kill a woman!!"

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Sorry for the confusion.

If something isn't canon, there may be plenty of things in canon to support a suggestion that something is true, or could be true. You just can't claim it is canon fact.

To me it was completely clear that @Nerys Myk did not do that.

 

[UnknownSample]

Yeah, that scene was really unnecessary and ill-conceived. The obviousness aside of the footage used, it didn't make sense that Sisko would have done that. It was pure "Look at what we can do with VFX" at the expense of character and story.

Oh just relax. I don't have all the scenes memorized, so it was a few years before I knew it was from Mirror Mirror. Excessive familiarity with Trek will sometimes undermine the impact of a moment here or there. Was there something bad about its having been from Mirror Mirror? It's funny to realize watching it that Sisko gets Marlena's semi-ogling... It's all a big fangasm anyway, why not have him say hi.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Oh just relax.

Sorry, say what?! I simply expressed my agreement with another poster. What the crap is wrong with that?

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Trek is very inconsistent about how many people are in Starfleet. In Coming Of Age it comes off as very small but in DS9 it comes off as much bigger.

 

[UnknownSample]

Sorry, say what?! I simply expressed my agreement with another poster. What the crap is wrong with that?

In the nicest possible way I can find to say this, it's very good to relax. Sorry it it came out badly. Enjoy your new rank of Corporal Captain and have a beer in the officer's club! Don't worry about the stolen jeep!

 

[Nerys Myk]

Conditional statements in speculations are hardly uncommon, but they are important to note, lest one think you are speaking from facts and you can prove every assertion you have made.

What? All I said is there's nothing in any episode or film to support the idea.

I don't remember where or even when I first heard that or read it, but it's not like I am saying it must be true. Only that it seemed reasonable then, and still does. I whole-heartedly invite anyone to present canon to refute it, of course.

I refute it. Here's the canon that proves it chakoteya.net Now, if you can find something in there to support it, go for it.

Yes, many students for many reasons choose to attend colleges far from home, and showing us thousands of examples of that still wouldn't prove every person in Starfleet went to Earth's Starfleet Academy.

It's the Federation's Starfleet Academy not Earth's. It's not just any school but a school for people who want to join Starfleet. It's where you go if you wish to become a Starfleet officer. Yes there are other ways, too. Doctors like McCoy and other professional can join without attended the Academy, Which is also true of the real world military.

I think it would be, and would takes much longer, too. Days. In NuTrek, well, you can just beam there, probably, and since everything seems free, you can go home for lunch everyday, too.

Your point?

Exactly what the VSA teaches is a little vague. I've not heard of a more military type facility on Vulcan, but then as a bunch of pacifists, that doesn't shock me. It may even by why Sarek disapproved of his son's choice to go to that earth school and join a more paramilitary type organization.

It's right there in the name "Vulcan Science Academy".

But the Vulcans did seem to have a space service. It may be different from the VSA, but since it does seem to exist (for who else was training their space people?) I suspect most Vulcans on the Intrepid came from there, or went through there.

But I can't prove that, either. I just find it arrogant and impractical to think everyone in Starfleet spent 4 years at Earth's Starfleet Academy.

Never said everyone and as I pointed out above there are other ways.
I'm sure many Federation members have civilian space services. Earth may even have one. (UESPA?)
Again it's the Federation's Starfleet Academy. It's only located on Earth.
Why is it impractical? As I said, that people from all over the Federation attend Starfleet Academy is well established in the franchise. It's no more impractical than someone from another part of modern day Earth traveling to America to attend West Point.

 

[Timewalker]

It's hard to believe, and even a little sad, the general public might not know what a movie is by that time. McCoy knows, after all.

It's more likely that Kirk doesn't know. Not everyone is into every sort of popular culture, or even knows it existed.

Voyager's Tom Paris is into 1950s pop culture, and there's a scene in one of the Voyager episodes where the rest of the bridge crew has been invited to partake of Tom's "3-D movie theatre" holodeck program. I think it was Tuvok who pointed out the illogic of going to the holodeck (which simulated three-dimensional, interactive environments) to watch a two-dimensional form of entertainment, that required special glasses to make that two-dimensional entertainment look like it was three-dimensional.

Oh just relax. I don't have all the scenes memorized, so it was a few years before I knew it was from Mirror Mirror. Excessive familiarity with Trek will sometimes undermine the impact of a moment here or there. Was there something bad about its having been from Mirror Mirror? It's funny to realize watching it that Sisko gets Marlena's semi-ogling... It's all a big fangasm anyway, why not have him say hi.

It annoys me, since the episode was touted as an homage to "The Trouble With Tribbles"... and suddenly there's a scene from "Mirror, Mirror" there. A very unnecessary scene that might be cute, but it took me right out of the episode.

 

[JRTStarlight]

What? All I said is there's nothing in any episode or film to support the idea.

As indicated above, there may have been a mix up as to who I thought was talking or said something like it was a fact rather than an opinion. Stupid me.

I refute it. Here's the canon that proves it chakoteya.net Now, if you can find something in there to support it, go for it.

That link to all that information does not refute it. It just suggests perhaps from your POV unless one can find something to prove a possibility has already been explicitly given in canon, you might say it has been demonstrated it is not possible. To disprove the assertion Spock was the first Vulcan to go to Earth's Starfleet academy, take the 4 years of courses, and graduate from there, you would have to show some canon fact that showed another Vulcan did it first. Otherwise the possibility remains. But only as a possibility.

One might also argue against its likelihood, probably based on other various canon facts, but it's still not proof one way or the other and is left open. It just might lend weight against the assertion.

Why is this important? For future writers of stories in this fictional universe, they should not violate canon. But to violate canon, one is not confined to doing only things that already have been explicitly done in canon – they just must avoid doing something contrary to existing canon. It should be possible, for example, to write a story about how Spock is the first Vulcan to do this without violating canon. For example, if some canon story already said that Spike (a Vulcan that came before Spock) did it first, then the assertion Spock was the first Vulcan to do it would violate canon and the story would be stupid.

In that link you gave, you aren't saying you know for a fact there is a Vulcan who came before Spock and did that first, are you? Without something of that strength, it would be wrong to say Spock was not the first Vulcan to graduate from SFA like this was a fact (not that I'm saying you said that). Without canon fact to back it up, it would also be wrong to say it is a fact Spock was the first, but it would be acceptable to write a story saying he did and claim the story does not violate canon.

It's the Federation's Starfleet Academy not Earth's. It's not just any school but a school for people who want to join Starfleet. It's where you go if you wish to become a Starfleet officer. Yes there are other ways, too. Doctors like McCoy and other professional can join without attended the Academy, Which is also true of the real world military.

We can't even be sure of that, but I agree it's probably true there are ways into Starfleet without going to one specific school with one physical location – that being earth and San Fracisco.

Your point?

For that? Well, for one, even in TOS or other Trek series since, I think it's wrong to assume something like transporters are available most anywhere and everywhere and they are free of charge, so any assertion or story that has somebody using them for trivial things is doing something that I think makes little sense.

For another, NuTrek and transwarp beaming practically makes starships obsolete, and I think the whole notion is stupid beyond belief. There may come a time when humanity develops or has access to that level of Tech, but I don't think it would be conducive to good Trek-like stories. YMMV. But it would seem more like Stargate than Star Trek.

It's right there in the name "Vulcan Science Academy".

Ah, like the science of war? The science of space travel. The fact is I can slap a science label on most anything worth studying. Maybe it just seems less clear to me what they teach there, apart from the notion that time travel is impossible.

Never said everyone and as I pointed out above there are other ways.

I'm sure many Federation members have civilian space services. Earth may even have one. (UESPA?)

Again it's the Federation's Starfleet Academy. It's only located on Earth.

Why is it impractical? As I said, that people from all over the Federation attend Starfleet Academy is well established in the franchise. It's no more impractical than someone from another part of modern day Earth traveling to America to attend West Point.

It's impractical to think one tiny place would or should service so many planets, or that the other planets wouldn't object if they weren't seen as "good enough" to have their own schools also dedicated to Starfleet. Assuming anyone is saying that.

I'm not even sure it's canon Spock went to Earth to do this since it may be possible Starfleet Academy does have branch schools in many areas, but I'm pretty sure it's been suggested he went to Earth to study. At Spock's time when he first went in, I also suspect the planet Vulcan did not have a Starfleet branch, but maybe it did.

And I disagree with the notion going many light years to earth and away from home, including the home environment that may be quite different and almost a burden to leave for some species, is no more impractical than crossing the nation, or that one school like West Point designed just for a few people of one species on one planet would translate well to one school designed for one group (future Starfleet personnel) but of many species from many planets and in much larger numbers. It seems impractical.

But yeah, there are plenty of examples of alien species coming to Earth to do just that. They may have had other options or other places they could go to get into Starfleet, but they picked Earth for a variety of reasons, but I suspect not because of a mandatory requirement. But I can't prove that, either.

 

[JRTStarlight]

It's more likely that Kirk doesn't know. Not everyone is into every sort of popular culture, or even knows it existed.

They use video presentations, and movies don't just mean fictional entertainment, so the very idea the term has lost all meaning to most of them is amazing to me. The concept of drive ins, or theaters, or even mass entertainment might be lost since they seem more interested in other things and have so many more options, but to not know what a movie is at all? Wow.

Voyager's Tom Paris is into 1950s pop culture, and there's a scene in one of the Voyager episodes where the rest of the bridge crew has been invited to partake of Tom's "3-D movie theatre" holodeck program. I think it was Tuvok who pointed out the illogic of going to the holodeck (which simulated three-dimensional, interactive environments) to watch a two-dimensional form of entertainment, that required special glasses to make that two-dimensional entertainment look like it was three-dimensional.

I thought that whole thing was pretty darn funny.

It annoys me, since the episode was touted as an homage to "The Trouble With Tribbles"... and suddenly there's a scene from "Mirror, Mirror" there. A very unnecessary scene that might be cute, but it took me right out of the episode.

Sorry it took you out of the moment so badly just because you recognized where it was from and it was a different episode. The fact it was on the bridge seemed sufficient to me to use it in the story and remain a tribute, so to speak, of the one episode since that's what the story was about. No story element was from Mirror, Mirror. But I can appreciate it taking you out of the moment. All I can say is if we are voting, I liked it and I'm glad they included it. Any objection I have to it might be along the lines that Sisko was risking more than he needed to, particularly since one might wonder where he came from or where he went, or easily learn he was lying and an intruder had come on board and was now gone. That could really change history.

Therefore, I had to assume he knew more about how plausible his story was a than I did, and how such things often happen, and how quickly the Enterprise was going to be in the next port to explain where he went.

But even that is nitpicking and looking for problems. The DS9 story was fun - more fun for me than the original TOS story, IMO, but I've never felt that episode was one of the best, as many actually do.

 

[φ of π]

Encounter at Farpoint, DeForest Kelly in super-old-man makeup. So we have transporters, sentient AI but no anti-ageing tech by the 24th Century?

Implying that medical science could advance in the future would NOT break willing suspension of disbelief.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

It annoys me, since the episode was touted as an homage to "The Trouble With Tribbles"... and suddenly there's a scene from "Mirror, Mirror" there. A very unnecessary scene that might be cute, but it took me right out of the episode.

My particular objections to the scene have nothing to do with where the source footage came from. I simply find it completely unbelievable that Sisko would have paraded himself in front of Kirk like that just for kicks. By drawing attention to himself like that in front of all of the bridge officers, he seriously risked exposure for no reason worth the risk. /Debbie Downer

 

[Nerys Myk]

That link to all that information does not refute it. It just suggests perhaps from your POV unless one can find something to prove a possibility has already been explicitly given in canon, you might say it has been demonstrated it is not possible. To disprove the assertion Spock was the first Vulcan to go to Earth's Starfleet academy, take the 4 years of courses, and graduate from there, you would have to show some canon fact that showed another Vulcan did it first. Otherwise the possibility remains. But only as a possibility.

I think you're missing the point. What I linked to is the "canon". It's the only information we have. It neither proves nor disproves the idea because the idea is never broached.

One might also argue against its likelihood, probably based on other various canon facts, but it's still not proof one way or the other and is left open. It just might lend weight against the assertion.

You're getting closer.

Why is this important? For future writers of stories in this fictional universe, they should not violate canon. But to violate canon, one is not confined to doing only things that already have been explicitly done in canon – they just must avoid doing something contrary to existing canon. It should be possible, for example, to write a story about how Spock is the first Vulcan to do this without violating canon. For example, if some canon story already said that Spike (a Vulcan that came before Spock) did it first, then the assertion Spock was the first Vulcan to do it would violate canon and the story would be stupid.

Which was never the point.

In that link you gave, you aren't saying you know for a fact there is a Vulcan who came before Spock and did that first, are you? Without something of that strength, it would be wrong to say Spock was not the first Vulcan to graduate from SFA like this was a fact (not that I'm saying you said that). Without canon fact to back it up, it would also be wrong to say it is a fact Spock was the first, but it would be acceptable to write a story saying he did and claim the story does not violate canon.

Nope, I'm saying it never came up. There is no canon to support it one or the other.

We can't even be sure of that, but I agree it's probably true there are ways into Starfleet without going to one specific school with one physical location – that being earth and San Fracisco.

Sure that the Academy on Earth is a Federation Academy? I think we can be pretty sure of that.

For that? Well, for one, even in TOS or other Trek series since, I think it's wrong to assume something like transporters are available most anywhere and everywhere and they are free of charge, so any assertion or story that has somebody using them for trivial things is doing something that I think makes little sense.

For another, NuTrek and transwarp beaming practically makes starships obsolete, and I think the whole notion is stupid beyond belief. There may come a time when humanity develops or has access to that level of Tech, but I don't think it would be conducive to good Trek-like stories. YMMV. But it would seem more like Stargate than Star Trek.

I don't think this was ever an issue.

Trek is full of tech that is non-conducive to good Trek-like stories. Mostly the writers ignore them
Transwarp beaming will join the others on the dustheap of one off ideas.

Ah, like the science of war? The science of space travel. The fact is I can slap a science label on most anything worth studying. Maybe it just seems less clear to me what they teach there, apart from the notion that time travel is impossible.

There's science and there's Science. Most people get what the latter means.

The notion that time travel is impossible was shown to be false in the 22nd Century, so I doubt it's part of the curriculum.

It's impractical to think one tiny place would or should service so many planets, or that the other planets wouldn't object if they weren't seen as "good enough" to have their own schools also dedicated to Starfleet. Assuming anyone is saying that.

How big is the campus? Do we even know? I once joked the entire city of San Francisco and perhaps the entire bay area is the Academy
Why would they object? Seems petty. It's their Starfleet.

 

[UnknownSample]

It's more likely that Kirk doesn't know. Not everyone is into every sort of popular culture, or even knows it existed.

Voyager's Tom Paris is into 1950s pop culture, and there's a scene in one of the Voyager episodes where the rest of the bridge crew has been invited to partake of Tom's "3-D movie theatre" holodeck program. I think it was Tuvok who pointed out the illogic of going to the holodeck (which simulated three-dimensional, interactive environments) to watch a two-dimensional form of entertainment, that required special glasses to make that two-dimensional entertainment look like it was three-dimensional.



It annoys me, since the episode was touted as an homage to "The Trouble With Tribbles"... and suddenly there's a scene from "Mirror, Mirror" there. A very unnecessary scene that might be cute, but it took me right out of the episode.

Yeah, it might be useful if wee could delete our memories and watch these things fresh. For many years, in the 70s, I had many ep's dialogues memorized, even without having needed to try to memorize. I had to go cold turkey for many years.
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That DS9 episode itself was as "unnecessary" as the two captains scene. It's part of no extended story. The whole thing is a co ntrived excuse to get the casts together. We could get by in our lives somehow without DS9 , so I guess it's unnecessary. I can't see this concept of scenes being "unnecessary" because they don't influence the plot. This is not some mere practical exercise, making and watching a TV episode. I think having scenes that don't push plot forward are needed to add realism. And anyway, I'd have done what Sisko did... I think the audience was right there with him on that.
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Don't mean to rake you over any coals. I'm just in need of going off on some Trek tangent tonight.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

It annoys me, since the episode was touted as an homage to "The Trouble With Tribbles"... and suddenly there's a scene from "Mirror, Mirror" there.

I really don't see the problem, as Kirk and Spock don't look appreciably different in the two episodes. Hell, Kirk is even wearing the same green v-neck uniform. So what if that one scene came from another season 2 episode? The staging suited their purposes for having Sisko introduce himself to Kirk, and it was a nice tag to the story.

A very unnecessary scene that might be cute, but it took me right out of the episode.

Well, fortunately for you the episode only had about two minutes left at that point.