Spoilers Ghostbusters: Frozen Empire grade and discussion thread

[evilchumlee]

If I were to take any published source over any other; it'd probably be the video game, since we know he had at least some input on the jargon.

The published sources all mostly sync up with each other. There's only minor differences. I think Akroyd has talked about bits and pieces of this, and I do think he was drawing off some "real world" information. His family had been involved in paranormal investigations/really weird occult shit for a long time.

In-universe, Ray is also clearly into this kind of thing... his excitement over a mass sponge migration and asymetrical book stacking seem to make that clear... not to mention his familiarity with things like Tobin's Spirit Guide and the Spate's Manual... both of which probably include some kind of definitions.

Actually, come to think of it, going by expanded materials... alot of the classifications and definitions come from the Spirit Guide. I would say that Tobin's Spirit Guide is a giant pile of garbage scribblings of a mad man, but... we know that at least some of the information is accurate to the universe.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

I really enjoyed that. My only real criticism is that it just had one too many plot threads making a lot of the second act unfocused, and the third a bit of busy mess. Aside from that, once more McKenna Grace is the highlight of the movie, both in performance and in the story. From some of the marketing material, it looked like they might have been pushing the Spenglers off to one side and making Paul Rudd the star, but thankfully marketing is all that seems to have been.

Yeah, I was worried about that, too. I love Paul Rudd but I want this to be primarily Mckenna Grace's show (as much as it can be for an ensemble).

I don't mind that they keep having the OG cast show up, at least in the earlier parts of the movie with Ray being the occult expert goaded into action by the kids, Winston as the money man keeping the government off their backs so they can do their jobs, and I actually really liked how they brought Venkman in to do his job as a parapsychologist and interviewing Nadeem. I could have done without them actually suiting up again at the end, but it's fine.

I also enjoyed how the inclusion of the original cast felt much more organic than before. They each had a specific role and function; Winston is the money and PR guy, Janine is the adult supervision, Ray is the lore and research guy, and even Peter as the consultant felt perfect.

Yup, giving them specific roles in direct relation to the Spengler family really helps flesh them out. Not I didn't mind them showing up spectacularly in Afterlife's climax for the reunion. As much as I wanted to see more of them, I think Skywalker is right that perhaps they shouldn't have been involved during Frozen Empire's climax and left it to the Spenglers, Podcast, Lucky, and maybe Pinfield. In fact...

As much as I enjoy Kumail Nanjiani as a comedic actor; if it were up to me, I'd have cut that whole thing down to just the lore dump for the big bad and the ancient ghostbusters. He took up a lot of screen time that could have been better spent on Lucky, who does very much seem pushed off to one side.

I think I have to agree with this. I, too, like Nanjiani (including, yes, in Eternals) but Nadeem did take up too much time and reducing his role would've helped provide time to flesh out the Phoebe/Melody relationship. I love the lore and the idea of ancient ghostbusters (also early 20th century ghostbusters!) but there was too much time spent introducing and delving into Nadeem's side of the story that was already being covered well by Wartzki (even if it was an exposition dump, but I still argue it was a good one).

As much as it pains me to say it, I may have cut Patton Oswalt's part too. Indeed I had a weird idea as they were pulling up to the library: what if Ray's expert in dead languages was literally dead? What if it was Eleanor Twitty herself? That would at least make made her appearance more than just an honestly pointless cameo, turning her into an actual character, which would dovetail quite nicely with Phoebe's "ghost friend" plot.

I wasn't a fan of her cameo here so that is a neat idea. I would've been down with Wartzki being a ghost (and perhaps who had a direct connection with Twitty?).

 

[evilchumlee]

I wasn't a fan of her cameo here so that is a neat idea. I would've been down with Wartzki being a ghost (and perhaps who had a direct connection with Twitty?).

For some reason, in the theater I thought the dead language expert was going to be a ghost of one of the Manhattan Adventurers Club guys.

Nadeem did definitely take up too much time. I liked him, but he was probably unnecessary and essentially the same story could have been told without him. Just have Melody's match do something else, idk, ignite fuel or something under Garraka that weakened him enough to trap him.

I still have a mild bone to pick about the match, although I can make it more sense to me. It seems that Melody could never move on unless this exact series of events occurred. However, it might not have been the action that moved her on. I was talking elsewhere apparently not everyone got what I got from Melody... I thought it was heavily implied she burned down the diner. When she was able to move on, it wasn't so much that the match was used at the right time, it's that she was able to do something to help someone else and forgive herself for starting the fire.

I disagree about not having the old guys in the climax. They absolutely belonged there. The climax just needed to be longer and more involved. They needed to shave like 20 minutes from somewhere else and have more going on there. Next time, no. The Spengler clan can handle it.

 

[HotRod]

I liked it. It wasn't great. It wasn't bad. I don't regret seeing it.

 

[UssGlenn]

Could have gotten the needed busting montage if Garakka commands ghosts to search the city for his missing horns.

 

[evilchumlee]

Could have gotten the needed busting montage if Garakka commands ghosts to search the city for his missing horns.

Brilliant.

Also maybe the final battle would have worked better Avengers Infinity War style... break up the groups, but then have them meet up at the end. My preference is keep the old guys at the firehouse, have the Spengler clan mopping up the ghost army (maybe have the horns in Ecto-1, so we get a moving target.)

Damn, this movie was totally fine as it was, but a few tweaks could have made it awesome.

The more I think of it, the more I really feel ike Garraka should have been released fairly early in the movie and have almost the whole damn thing set in a frozen wasteland NYC.

Retrospect is 20/20 but I feel like we could downplay Nadeem and release Garraka early by having the orb thing already in the firehouse or the new lab, and Phoebe screws with it much earlier. Instead of Melody betraying Phoebe resulting in the release of Garraka, keep that bit but have the point be for Phoebe to give up the location of the horns, thus starting an extended montage/chase scene through the city as a ghost army guns for Ecto-1, while the OG Busters post up at the firehouse to defend the containment unit.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

I don't like how apparently easily replicatable the technology was. I was kind of hoping the knowledge died with Egon and nobody else could make sense of it.

I disagree, the containment system was developed as a co-op between Egon and Ray, per the original movies:

RAY This ecto-containment system that Spengler and I have in mind is going to require a load of bread to capitalize. Where are we going to get the money?

And the rest of the tech is clearly related, so it makes sense to me that Egon was (mostly) the theories and prototyping guy of the pair and Ray was the fabricator, so while he might struggle to come up with any new technology unrelated to stuff that they've built before, he's fully capable of fabricating new copies or even versions of established technology?

 

[evilchumlee]

RAY This ecto-containment system that Spengler and I have in mind is going to require a load of bread to capitalize. Where are we going to get the money?

Yes, but I don't think that quote necessarily means Egon and Ray were like, equal partners in the development of the technology. Although according to most sources, Ray either has a degree in Metallurgy or Engineering, so it's not outlandish that he was involved in the nuts and bolts construction.

I had always taken that quote as being Ray as the idea man, paranormal expert/fanatic with Egon being the brains to actually create the tech.

And the rest of the tech is clearly related, so it makes sense to me that Egon was (mostly) the theories and prototyping guy of the pair and Ray was the fabricator, so while he might struggle to come up with any new technology unrelated to stuff that they've built before, he's fully capable of fabricating new copies or even versions of established technology?

It's reasonable, and actually makes sense given how the "new" technology looks... the new proton packs are incredibly similar to Spengler's Afterlife-modified pack (because, by and large, they're modified Haslab Afterlife Spengler packs...), down to the exposed wires, ribbon cables, etc.

So yeah it does very much seem like they can replicate the tech almost exactly with some tweaks, but building NEW stuff may be currently out of reach. Even Lucky's hand-blaster thing was just a modified neutrona wand (I want to get a better look at that to see where it's getting its power from).

On an unrelated note, part of why I want to get a look at the hand blaster is... I want to build one. I do GB cosplay, and I have two spare neutrona wands I could cannibalize for it. I'm also considering doing some light modifications to my proton pack, right now it's straight '84 (I weathered it more, added some small things), with the Afterlife Spengler wand (soon i'm going to get some grips 3D printed to make it an '84 wand). I kind of want my gear to be a multi-era hybrid combining GB1/2, the video game, and the new movies. I've had the new radio they use since the first trailer, mounted on the pack strap like the video game. I want to add the slime container from the game on the side. I might just do the "caution tape" style side panel from Frozen Empire. I don't want to do the new yellow support strut.

 

[Samurai8472]

Sounds like this movie had a few questionable edits. Venkman was in the scene where everyone sees the ghosts being studied but was edited out.

 

[evilchumlee]

Sounds like this movie had a few questionable edits. Venkman was in the scene where everyone sees the ghosts being studied but was edited out.

Which feels odd to be, given the generally daunting task of getting Bill Murray to show up at all... to cut him out of things.

 

[UssGlenn]

. Even Lucky's hand-blaster thing was just a modified neutrona wand (I want to get a better look at that to see where it's getting its power from).

its got a little triangular box on the end of the handle, with a round red light, inspired by the 4 cyclotron lights on the pack. Unfortunately I can't quite figure out how that makes any sense. If its a blaster, not a thrower, I could justify it as a replaceable power cell, but Somehow I don't think the production though it all the way through. They haven't covered it yet on Adam Savages behind the scenes videos.

 

[evilchumlee]

Find a nice picture of one. It's like, almost literally just a "sawn off" neutrona wand.

I think the back part is supposed to be the power source. It kind of sort of looks like one of the "windows" from the cyclotron, so maybe it's a miniaturized version.

And actually now seeing this in more detail... I may well be able to jury rig something up. I don't have access to a 3D printer or extensive tools, but I think I can get something pretty close to this.

I was going to use my other wands to build a homebrew thing anyway, was thinking along the lines of the pistol-type things they had in the 2016 movie. I still might do that just to have something unique. I might go find a nerf gun or something and make some kind of unholy abomination out of it.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

its got a little triangular box on the end of the handle, with a round red light, inspired by the 4 cyclotron lights on the pack. Unfortunately I can't quite figure out how that makes any sense. If its a blaster, not a thrower, I could justify it as a replaceable power cell, but Somehow I don't think the production though it all the way through. They haven't covered it yet on Adam Savages behind the scenes videos.

Speaking of whom, two more videos (but doesn't cover that prop...yet):

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I keep saying this but I really love the devotion the production team puts into everything for the film, even if it's not visibly seen.

I also love how they completely created the Ghost Corps lab to look authentically like an abandoned aquarium and not actually using an onset location (which I thought might have been the case). Lots of great architectural and equipment productions that naturally bring a lived-in history to the space.

 

[evilchumlee]

I keep saying this but I really love the devotion the production team puts into everything for the film, even if it's not visibly seen.

This is a big deal, ESPECIALLY in the modern times.

I was having a discussion the other day about how alot of movies just aren't... "magical" anymore? The magic was important word, because I feel like we largely lost the concept of "movie magic". There used to be a mystery about how the hell a movie was able to do what it did, how it could show what it was showing. Now? It's CGI. All of it. Everything. Sure it looks cool enough and allows for all kinds of stuff to happen, but there's nothing special about it. Just CGI.

When a movie does what this movie did, and actually makes things, puts the effort it, it shows. It really adds something... well... magical to the movie. Even if you aren't completely conscious of it, it's still there.

 

[Turtletrekker]

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[Unicron]

And the rest of the tech is clearly related, so it makes sense to me that Egon was (mostly) the theories and prototyping guy of the pair and Ray was the fabricator, so while he might struggle to come up with any new technology unrelated to stuff that they've built before, he's fully capable of fabricating new copies or even versions of established technology?

You might be right, as the RGB cartoon occasionally made references to Ray's engineering knowledge. The episode "Bustman's Holiday" had the team having to deal with a huge group of ghosts in Scotland (two armies numbering almost a thousand, according to dialogue) which they were tricked into making restless essentially. Egon specifically says that even if the packs didn't have a limited charge, they don't have enough traps to deal with that many ghosts normally. So Ray persuaded some of the locals to help him convert their garbage trucks into much larger traps.

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[The Nth Doctor]

This is a big deal, ESPECIALLY in the modern times.

I was having a discussion the other day about how alot of movies just aren't... "magical" anymore? The magic was important word, because I feel like we largely lost the concept of "movie magic". There used to be a mystery about how the hell a movie was able to do what it did, how it could show what it was showing. Now? It's CGI. All of it. Everything. Sure it looks cool enough and allows for all kinds of stuff to happen, but there's nothing special about it. Just CGI.

When a movie does what this movie did, and actually makes things, puts the effort it, it shows. It really adds something... well... magical to the movie. Even if you aren't completely conscious of it, it's still there.

Yup, that's something Adam regularly emphasizes in his videos. Not just for Ghostbusters but many of his other Tested videos that cover films and shows that retain practical effects. Especially puppetry. No surprise that he's a huge Muppets fan.

 

[Reverend]

You might be right, as the RGB cartoon occasionally made references to Ray's engineering knowledge. The episode "Bustman's Holiday" had the team having to deal with a huge group of ghosts in Scotland (two armies numbering almost a thousand, according to dialogue) which they were tricked into making restless essentially. Egon specifically says that even if the packs didn't have a limited charge, they don't have enough traps to deal with that many ghosts normally. So Ray persuaded some of the locals to help him convert their garbage trucks into much larger traps.

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I recall reading an old interview with Ramis, and he talked about how in Aykroyd's original script, the Ghostbusters characters themselves were all essentially indistinguishable, and very much just like Dan himself. So the first thing he and Reitman did when revising it was to assign specific characteristics and roles in the group. Egon was the brain; the curious (almost to a fault) research scientist. Ray was the heart; the lore and engineering guy (they literally show him as a mechanic, fixing up the car when Dana first walks in). And Pete of course was the mouth; the fast talking huckster who's not great on the academic side, but was canny enough to attach himself to the two smartest guys he could find.

All that said; there's clearly a lot of overlap in their skillsets. Ray didn't do ALL of the engineering work, just as Egon didn't do ALL of the R&D; that was all clearly a collaboration between the two of them. I don't think either could necessarily have done it without the other.

 

[Booji]

B

I enjoyed the movie, but it was a step down from Afterlife. The cast is still great. I'm very happy Phoebe remains the main drive of the current films and the story revolved around her. I giggled at all the Slimer scenes and enjoyed them. The ghost librarian being the linguist would have made a pointless cameo much better as Rev stated. I was hoping for a more engaging villain too. I was getting Samhain vibes from the trailers, but it didn't happen. If I remember correctly, Samhain was a good shit talker and that's what I would have liked to have seen, or heard really. The new guy just grumbled alot and never actually killed anyone via a lethal fear dose as was suggested he could do. The mid credits was kind of pointless too.

All in all, a decent movie I'm happy I saw in theaters. Could have been better though. Definitely looking forward to more adventures with this gang

 

[Timby]

And Pete of course was the mouth; the fast talking huckster who's not great on the academic side, but was canny enough to attach himself to the two smartest guys he could find.

Let's not say things we can't take back; the first movie establishes that Venkman has two doctorates, which isn't exactly easy to achieve if one isn't an academic. Venkman is a huckster, but he's also a very intelligent one.