News Georgiou Section 31 Series officially announced:

[ALF]

Was it The Sopranos that established the antihero approach?

I do believe it can be done - the issue is with antiheroes on shows like Breading Bad, The Sopranos, Mad Men, etc the hero acts like a villain but we are in the unusual position of relating to/feeling sympathy for them.

When Sopranos ended, a lot of fans wanted to see Tony's comeuppance and that angered the creator who thought it was fickle or something that the fans cheered Tony on for years and as the series finale approached, some fans indicated that they wanted to see Tony "get justice." The problem is, you shouldn't want both. You can't egg Tony on for the entire series to murder willy-nilly and then tune into the ending expecting to see him get whacked for all the terrible things he's done.

A Section 31 series with MU Philippa Georgiou will have to grapple with these issues... especially if she is pretending to be the PU Philippa Georgiou.

 

[Dukhat]

We don't get to decide, and we never will. That kind of "ugh they didn't do what I wanted and I am soooo bitter about it" is just childish and asinine.

Luckily for me I don’t give a shit about what you think.

 

[Rahul]

Was it The Sopranos that established the antihero approach?

I do believe it can be done - the issue is with antiheroes on shows like Breading Bad, The Sopranos, Mad Men, etc the hero acts like a villain but we are in the unusual position of relating to/feeling sympathy for them.

When Sopranos ended, a lot of fans wanted to see Tony's comeuppance and that angered the creator who thought it was fickle or something that the fans cheered Tony on for years and as the series finale approached, some fans indicated that they wanted to see Tony "get justice." The problem is, you shouldn't want both. You can't egg Tony on for the entire series to murder willy-nilly and then tune into the ending expecting to see him get whacked for all the terrible things he's done.

A Section 31 series with MU Philippa Georgiou will have to grapple with these issues... especially if she is pretending to be the PU Philippa Georgiou.

I don't know - yes, this is an issue, but not the defining one.

I guess EVERY show with an anti-hero as the main character has the problem that some part of the audiences empathize too much with the character and end up rooting for him, even though he clearly is a villain (just look at how many people want Loki to win! You know? The guy that wants to conquer the world?)

A Harry Mudd-show (which I would really prefer) would have the same problem: Yes, Mudd is charming. but he is also totally an attempted murderer and con-man. That needs to be written a bit more nuanced. But still: I would say - this would not be the creators fault. this is just viewers not being able to properly think and distance themselves.

But, again, ALL anti-hero shows have that: Whoever the main character is, people will empathize, sometimes too much, and root for him to various degrees. That's simply the game of the genre.

What is NOT okay, like really not, is making people root for Hitler. Accepting genocide as his tactics, cheering with him for gloating his victims in the eye. Imply that it's totally fine to torture and eat people, as long as you later work for the "right" side and feel a little bad about it. That's just not okay.

You CAN make a movie with Hitler as the protagonist - "Downfall" is a movie does actually that exist. But that movie never forgets it's portraying one of history's biggest monster.


It's even worse, because Kurtzman's press release of the show clearly suggests that THE WRITERS made the mistake of fully empathising siding with Georgiou. "Its a tough woman, making though choices, for the greater good!"

NO! YOU ASSHOLES JUST MADE LITERAL CANNIBAL SPACE HITLER THE HERO. And actively ROOT for her. You know? The woman that EATS people? That commited genocide? That blows up planets? That tortures people? That is a literal fascist?

I don't know, I simply never thought I would see the day where Star Trek takes a firm stand FOR the Holocaust and sides with it's enablers.
Fuck these people.

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

Luckily for me I don’t give a shit about what you think.

Why isn't that in your signature line?

 

[eschaton]

One of the other key differences is my understanding of the "flawed protagonist" shows is they tend to go one of two ways. Either the Tony Soprano/Don Draper way - basically showing a complicated and broken man we can root for - or a Frank Underwood/Walter White like slow descent into villain protagonist.

 

[DigificWriter]

I don't know - yes, this is an issue, but not the defining one.

I guess EVERY show with an anti-hero as the main character has the problem that some part of the audiences empathize too much with the character and end up rooting for him, even though he clearly is a villain (just look at how many people want Loki to win! You know? The guy that wants to conquer the world?)

A Harry Mudd-show (which I would really prefer) would have the same problem: Yes, Mudd is charming. but he is also totally an attempted murderer and con-man. That needs to be written a bit more nuanced. But still: I would say - this would not be the creators fault. this is just viewers not being able to properly think and distance themselves.

But, again, ALL anti-hero shows have that: Whoever the main character is, people will empathize, sometimes too much, and root for him to various degrees. That's simply the game of the genre.

What is NOT okay, like really not, is making people root for Hitler. Accepting genocide as his tactics, cheering with him for gloating his victims in the eye. Imply that it's totally fine to torture and eat people, as long as you later work for the "right" side and feel a little bad about it. That's just not okay.

You CAN make a movie with Hitler as the protagonist - "Downfall" is a movie that exist. But that movie never forgets it's portraying one of history's biggest monster.


It's even worse, because the description of the show clearly suggests that THE WRITERS made mistake of fully empathising and rooting for Georgiou. "Its a tough woman, making tough choices, for the greater good!"

NO! YOU ASSHOLES JUST MADE LITERAL CANNIBAL SPACE HITLER THE HERO. And actively ROOT for her. You know? The woman that EATS people? That commited genocide? That blows up planets? That tortures people? That is a literal fascist?

I don't know, I simply never thought I would see the day where Star Trek takes a firm stand FOR the Holocaust and sides with it's enablers.
Fuck these people.

Chill the heck out, dude!

You're completely overreacting to this, and it's making you look crazy.

 

[Kor]

For a long time I've been interested in seeing more of a Starfleet "black ops" kind of thing. I hope this show will be good.

Kor

 

[Rahul]

Chill the heck out, dude!

You're completely overreacting to this, and it's making you look crazy.

That's some Orwellian bullshit if I ever heard one.

"Yes, we're now on Hitlers side. Get over it!"

Fuck this.

 

[DigificWriter]

That's some Orwellian bullshit if I ever heard one.

"Yes, we're now on Hitlers side. Get over it!"

First of all, calling Georgeiu "Space Hitler" is itself an overreaction.

Second, you are freaking out and making assumptions that the series isn't going to "earn" redemption for the character.

Wait and see what they're going to do before you have a conniption.

 

[ITDUDE]

Wait and see what they're going to do before you have a conniption.

Overreacting - What Star Trek fans have been doing since 1966

 

[Rahul]

First of all, calling Georgeiu "Space Hitler" is itself an overreaction.

Yes, the appropriate reaction is to call her CANNIBAL Space Hitler!
You're forgetting the personal touch.

Second, you are freaking out and making assumptions that the series isn't going to "earn" redemption for the character.

Wait and see what they're going to do before you have a conniption.

And no. I think, once you personally ordered genocide, and personally ate peple, and personally gloated other people how you ate their kind in the face - you are too far removed to ever "earn" redemption.

Like, if real-life Hitler or Bin Laden were ever caught alive - these people would die in prison. Nobody would release them.

And nobody would make a series about them being the heroes of a spy-fic adventure.
No matter how "charismatic" they are.

 

[Red Panda]

there's a limit to how much damage she could do to the ideals of the Federation considering its...you know...a prequel.

Spoiler

Time travel is coming to DSC, and could result in Georgiou staying in the future.

 

[eschaton]

Stepping back for a second, I think that ultimately, if the show is successful, MU Georgiou's actions in Discovery's first season will be chalked up to early-installment weirdness sadly.

Spoiler

Time travel is coming to DSC, and could result in Georgiou staying in the future.

Spoiler: Unlikely

Even if MU Georgiou can travel to the future, what possible reason would the Section 31 of the future have to continue employing her?

 

[Rahul]

Stepping back for a second, I think that ultimately, if the show is successful, MU Georgiou's actions in Discovery's first season will be chalked up to early-installment weirdness sadly.

The weirdest part is that this entire premise could even have worked, if they didn't make MU Gergiou
1) THIS cartoonishly over-the-top evil, and
2) being in charge of the WHOLE damn thing in the MU


Like, I could absolutely see a story (or series) starring MU intendand Kira from DS9 - yes, she was on the evil side. Yes, she did horrible thing. But also, she was a result of the environment, of the system. If she suddenly got thrown into the prime universe? Where she would suddenly realize a world of liberty and personal freedom is not only possible, but can even be powerfull?

That could work.

But MU Georgiou not only already knew about the prime universe (via the Defiant) - she's the one making up the entirety of the evil MU - rules! The MU has never been as depraved as under her rule. And she's just too high up the ladder. There can be redemption for people "just following orders", that later find to enlightenment, or are too valuable for "our" side, or both (cue Werner von Braun). But that simply won't work for the ultimate leader and driving force of evil in the first place, Cannibal Space Hitler himself.

 

[The Habs Fan]

Spoiler

Time travel is coming to DSC, and could result in Georgiou staying in the future.

I don’t know if this is pure speculation or you know something about this upcoming season, but..

Spoiler

I wouldn’t be surprised if the show Discovery itself does a massive time jump to way past the 25th century even!. Thus opening up the 23rd century for a Pike Enterprise spin-off.

 

[Goji]

The idea of a Star Trek series centered around such an obviously evil character is of staggeringly little interest to me, and more than a little distasteful as well. In fact, just knowing that this is the direction the current producers of the franchise want to go with it is coloring my view of "Discovery" as well. I wasn't a fan of the first season, I didn't care about a war with the Klingons or yet another mirror universe retread, but I had some hope it would eventually build into something worthwhile. Now it seems they're just doubling down on the aspects of that season I found by far the most loathsome. I think I'm perfectly comfortable parting ways with the CBS All Access part of the franchise at this point.

 

[Cake]

This also gets back to a problem with the MU Georgiou show. Because even if they chose to take a note from Breaking Bad, and do a five-season descent into total depravity, there's a limit to how much damage she could do to the ideals of the Federation considering its...you know...a prequel. The macro outcome is never in doubt.

It wouldn't be a "descent" for her. She would just continue doing what she has always done and the Federation would be the stupid bystanders.

 

[The Habs Fan]

The weirdest part is that this entire premise could even have worked, if they didn't make MU Gergiou
1) THIS cartoonishly over-the-top evil, and
2) being in charge of the WHOLE damn thing in the MU


Like, I could absolutely see a story (or series) starring MU intendand Kira from DS9 - yes, she was on the evil side. Yes, she did horrible thing. But also, she was a result of the environment, of the system. If she suddenly got thrown into the prime universe? Where she would suddenly realize a world of liberty and personal freedom is not only possible, but can even be powerfull?

That could work.

But MU Georgiou not only already knew about the prime universe (via the Defiant) - she's the one making up the entirety of the evil MU - rules! The MU has never been as depraved as under her rule. And she's just too high up the ladder. There can be redemption for people "just following orders", that later find to enlightenment, or are too valuable for "our" side, or both (cue Werner von Braun). But that simply won't work for the ultimate leader and driving force of evil in the first place, Cannibal Space Hitler himself.

I’m guessing you never watched the Enterprise mirror universe episodes? It was already pretty depraved.

 

[Rahul]

I’m guessing you never watched the Enterprise mirror universe episodes? It was already pretty depraved.

Nobody was eating sentient beings in there, yes, they had the "Klingon promotion", no, torture was "limited" to actual enemies, not just everyone all the time, and NO, there was no genocide commited on this scale! Hoshi threatened it to get power (similar to how L'Rell did in the DIS finale). But they didn't blow up Kronos, nor the planets of the resistance, and they certainly weren't portrayed as "the good guys".

I'm guessing you never actually watched any Star Trek ever before? Because "cannibalism" surely is new on the table. And "rooting for the guys commiting genocide" as well.

 

[ITDUDE]

Time travel is coming to DSC, and could result in Georgiou staying in the future.

I think you still don't know how and when to use spoiler tags