Gene gets much bad talk around here....

[CuriousCaitian]

...The show itself? Comments from the staff in The Next Generation Companion?

The first couple of seasons, to a degree, yes, but still not to the extent suggested, at least to me. Then again, I'm not nearly as averse to utopic ideals as some - cursed with a streak of optimism that stubbornly refuses to curl up and die - so these elements might not have registered as strongly as they did with others. And I've not read the Companion. Certainly on the list now, though.

"BEVERLY CRUSHER – Leslie's 35-year-old mother. She serves as the chief medical officer on the Enterprise. If it were not for her intelligence, personality, beauty, and the fact that she has a natural walk of a striptease queen, Capt. Picard might not have agreed to her request that Leslie observe bridge activities; therefore letting her daughter's intelligence carry events further."

And that's exactly the kind of queasy detail I was referring to. Not Fleming semi-rape, tie-a-woman-to-the-end-of-your-bed bad, but still pretty egregious. Your point?

Also, I've just learned that (allegedly) David Gerrold produced the series bible, but Gene took credit. (from the Joel Engel Myth and Man book). Whether this is true or not, I'm not sure - but these definitely sound like Gene's ideas to me. Maybe Gerrold organized his thoughts into a formal document for him.

If the penned notes in the version you linked me were by Gene, that does strongly suggest he came up with the ideas, and someone else, maybe several people, collated them into a formal document.

 

[Orphalesion]

It's also true that Tasha Yar only existed because Roddenberry got attracted to Vasquez form Aliens for "creating a whole new kind of feminine beauty"
And Troi was supposed to be over-sexed and have four breasts (and her character originates from Ilia anyway, who herself was just a sexual fantasy from the bald, Queen Neferteti-lesque head to her supernatural attraction-powers that force her to "take an oath of celibacy" for the benefit of the male humans in the crew )

 

[Shaka Zulu]

Thanks.



Yeah, I mean, on the one hand, it's cool that they portrayed someone who wasn't white as being "genetically superior."

On the other hand, I think Khan in "Space Seed" is still a problematic character. First off, it's a Mexican actor of European descent playing a Sikh, which gives the impression that the producers essentially lumped all non-Anglo people together into one big pile. And secondly, they gave Montalban makeup to make his skin look darker, which in my view ends up playing into the "scary brown men coming to take our white women away" trope.

Also, just, y'know, the sexual politics of a woman in Starfleet longing for a dominant man to take over her life, and then Khan doing just that and she falls for him after he's borderline assaulted her? That's, um. That's some misogynistic sexual politics there, and they're not all Khan's politics; a lot of that is the narrative's politics -- it depicts McGiver's submissiveness uncritically.

None of this is to shit on Ricardo Montalban, mind you. Him, we must stan.

The moral of the story: Khan Noonien Singh is a really difficult character to depict in a manner that isn't in some way offensive, and it was a mistake to use him in Star Trek Into Darkness.

Khan was an evil, nonredeemable asshole and human timberwolf,who liked to dominate women, and Marla McGivers was a brilliant, but flighty historian who got wet in the you-know-where over a hot looking guy from the past; IMHO, both were suited for each other,and said people do exist in real life, and may even exist centuries into the future (and also would be the same if the genders were swapped.)

As to the subject matter of Star Trek Into Darkness, it was a great movie with a great villain, and it was a masterstroke to have said bad guy be disguised as a Caucasian, to show that terrorism can be committed by white people; the only 'offense' suffered were from the same Perpetually Poutraged concern trolling emoprogressives who expected him to be brown-skinned when they (and everybody) knew that if he was the brown-skinned Khan, they'd still be complaining, except it'd be about how brown-skinned people can only be terrorists in American movies.

 

[Vger23]

Some dink posted on the Star Trek official Facebook page about how “Gene would not like DSC, PIC or LD. “

It took a lot of restraint to not respond with a bucketload of how I felt about him, his mother, and his Immature estimations on a long-deceased man’s possible opinions.

 

[Odo]

Maybe he would, maybe he wouldn't. Maybe he would hate DS9, which is my favorite show of all time. Who can really say - the man passed long ago.

Fans like that use the idea of Gene to gatekeep.

 

[BillJ]

Some dink posted on the Star Trek official Facebook page about how “Gene would not like DSC, PIC or LD. “

It took a lot of restraint to not respond with a bucketload of how I felt about him, his mother, and his Immature estimations on a long-deceased man’s possible opinions.

If Gene was getting a paycheck, he would’ve been fine with them.

 

[RAMA]

Gene created, then fleshed out a universe in TOS with several high-profile co-creators. Gene had already formed some of his worldview by this point, and I believe like most human beings he changed and grew over the years. Sure, he believed his own press, but I also genuinely think he believed in his own ideals.

This developed worldview made it's purest appearance in STNG. It also had an awkward and uneasy time of it because it was idealist, and through brute force of will, it overcame some of the dramatic norms it was flaunting, but it couldn't last. Eventually, more conflict and drama had to make its way back in to be appealing to contemporary audiences.

On a personal front, Gene continually failed, but Gene also had the thought process of some great thinkers of our time...he had the "free love" spirit of H. G. Wells and of the 60-70s and felt humans were too uptight (especially Americans), and he felt drugs weren't evil but a symptom of unhappiness in our society (something that he tried to say in "Symbiosis", but was so awkwardly executed, everyone thought it was a "say no to drugs" episode). Both of these things got him into trouble in a society that doesn't openly accept them because he indulged in both, and was clearly unhappy.

On the business front, Gene made some choices that worked against him. By pulling out of the 3rd season of TOS and when the network wanted him to change Questor Tapes, he let himself slide into creative dormancy outside of Star Trek. He also was overbearing throughout his years in re-writing episodes. As his mental faculties declined, his lawyer took over and probably over-stepped his bounds.

Ultimately, Gene was guilty of trying to micro-manage something he thought only he steer on course. Right or wrong, he did manage a huge hit with TNG and capturing lightning in a bottle again. Even with his issues, I still find myself going back to how he would have thought about things. We don't have to slavishly replicate it, but we can use what we know as a guide.

RAMA

 

[Nerys Myk]

Unintentional and unconscious. But a man of his times. Who at least envisioned the nations of earth all finally cooperating as a glorious UESPA!

Not an uncommon trope in SF.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

As his mental faculties declined, his lawyer took over and probably over-stepped his bounds.

Probably?!? Try "absolutely." The dude was rewriting scripts.

 

[RAMA]

Probably?!? Try "absolutely." The dude was rewriting scripts.

Well, I have no evidence of this, just anectodes, but I'm willing to accept he was doing so. I'm almost positive Gene was not asking him to do so, but that's supposition.

 

[BillJ]

I'm sure Roddenberry' sycophants were quickly shown the door once he passed. Maizlich, Arnold, Sackett.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Well, I have no evidence of this, just anectodes, but I'm willing to accept he was doing so.

If the accounts of several people who were working for the show isn't enough evidence for you, I have no idea what your standard of proof is.

I'm almost positive Gene was not asking him to do so, but that's supposition.

More like "wishful thinking", IMO.

 

[The Wormhole]

I'm sure Roddenberry' sycophants were quickly shown the door once he passed. Maizlich, Arnold, Sackett.

IIRC, Arnold actually did say that Paramount sent him packing in less than twenty-four hours after Roddenberry died.

 

[drt]

IIRC, Arnold actually did say that Paramount sent him packing in less than twenty-four hours after Roddenberry died.

I doubt higher-up Paramount execs were paying that close attention, if he was sent packing that quickly it means Berman was responsible.

 

[The Wormhole]

I doubt higher-up Paramount execs were paying that close attention, if he was sent packing that quickly it means Berman was responsible.

Most likely the case, but "Paramount" is what Arnold himself said.

 

[Tim Thomason]

I doubt higher-up Paramount execs were paying that close attention, if he was sent packing that quickly it means Berman was responsible.

Berman was a Vice President at Paramount Television. If he made the call, which is likely, it would still count as a "Paramount" decision.

 

[Shaka Zulu]

I'm sure Roddenberry' sycophants were quickly shown the door once he passed. Maizlich, Arnold, Sackett.

I recall reading an issue of the newsletter of a local Star Trek fan club here in Toronto, which had reposted a post made on Usenet (and which was titled 'Arnold: Terminated') mentioning this news.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Same here. I think the thin façade of TNG's utopia made it far less appealing to me as a viewer. I think that the efforts of newer shows to flesh that out ended up exposing that paradise wasn't all that it appeared to be.

That is something I loved about Picard's opening episodes. Where he finally sees the cracks in all he was raised to believe in and falls through.

 

[XCV330]

I recall reading an issue of the newsletter of a local Star Trek fan club here in Toronto, which had reposted a post made on Usenet (and which was titled 'Arnold: Terminated') mentioning this news.

There was a lot of talk about Melakon I mean Arnold on the old newsgroups. But a lot of the really early archives are very hard to get at now.

REC.ARTS.STARTREK


asher green

Aug 26, 1991, 5:06:44 AM
to
I heard that Richard Arnold got flogged. Is this true?
Live Long and Prosper, (Toronto/North York, Ontario)
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John Bates

Aug 26, 1991, 11:16:17 AM
to
In article <1991Aug26...@canrem.uucp>, asher...@canrem.uucp (asher green) writes:
|> I heard that Richard Arnold got flogged. Is this true?
|>
On another note, I just finished reading _Vendetta_ (a lot of fun) and my keen 
eyes noticed that the dedication read something like "For Richard: The biggest
windmill of them all". Could it be possible that Mr. David was slamming Richard
Arnold?

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John W. Bates | "Why you say you no bunny rabbit when you have
| little powder-puff tail?" -- The Tasmanian Devil
jba...@encore.com | "There are no more little bunnies to destroy..."
| -- Frank Lemmer
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Timothy W. Lynch
unread,
Aug 26, 1991, 2:05:36 PM
to
jba...@encore.encore.COM (John Bates) writes:
>In article <1991Aug26...@canrem.uucp>, asher...@canrem.uucp (asher green) writes:
>|> I heard that Richard Arnold got flogged. Is this true?

Not quite. As I understand it, he's been removed from the loop of licensing
materials, which means that _for now_ he doesn't get to touch the novels.
He's still got his job, though.

>On another note, I just finished reading _Vendetta_ (a lot of fun) and my keen
>eyes noticed that the dedication read something like "For Richard: The biggest
>windmill of them all". Could it be possible that Mr. David was slamming 
>Richard Arnold?

Possible? You don't know Peter very well, do you? :-)

It's not only possible, it's absolutely true.

 

[suarezguy]

I'm so glad that he created Star Trek, but people that prop him up like some kind of L Ron Hubbard diety freak me out.

No deity or saint but, to quote Riker, he did have a vision. He could have exploited the brand, made it much more mass-market commercial, than he actually did when he had chances to.