Game Of Thrones Season 5 TV Only Discussion (Spoilers)

[Captaindemotion]

IIRC, Dany's wedding night with Drogo was more consensual in the book.

Also, while Theon was almost raped (in the same episode where Brienne was almost raped too), the rapist was killed by Ramsay before he committed the physical act.

 

[DigificWriter]

She said no, he carried on. Sound like rape to me. And yes, I know it was different in the book.

I've personally heard both Lena Headey and Nicolaj Coster-Wauldau talk about the Jaime/Cersei scene, and they were both adamant and clear that it was not written as, shot as, or intended to be a rape... a sentiment that has also been echoed by others.

I've seen people try to say that Ramsay didn't rape Sansa because (a) they were married & (b) she removed her clothing and didn't resist him. Still looked like rape to me.

The Sansa/Ramsay thing may not technically qualify as a rape, but it was certainly staged as borderline assault; the same thing cannot be said for the Cersei/Jaime scene.

 

[FPAlpha]

I've seen people try to say that Ramsay didn't rape Sansa because (a) they were married & (b) she removed her clothing and didn't resist him. Still looked like rape to me.

The Sansa/Ramsay thing may not technically qualify as a rape, but it was certainly staged as borderline assault; the same thing cannot be said for the Cersei/Jaime scene.

Rape to me is the lack of consent, either voiced, acted or even unspoken.

Now the last one is very tricky and probably unprovable in court or even between the people involved. There was definitely violence involved so it's at least sexual assault but i think Sansa was too mortified and afraid of Ramsay to even put up a fight or simply say no because the outcome could have been much worse.

She's a young, powerless woman surrounded by very cruel and powerful men in a society that rewards power and gives them every right to do what they please because no one would dare to take them to court unless they are backed by a bigger army. There are no courts that could help her and the main deed, the marriage, is already done and sealed so the only bargaining tool she may have had is gone.

She knew this, maybe she hoped it would pass quick and certainly with less violence so if being very technical i don't think it was rape though.

Nonetheless it was a very brutal scene that made me squirm in my seat because of both her screams and Theon's agony/horror in having to watch someone he may care about put through this. If i ever rewatch that episode i will definitely skip this part.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

IIRC, Dany's wedding night with Drogo was more consensual in the book.

Also, while Theon was almost raped (in the same episode where Brienne was almost raped too), the rapist was killed by Ramsay before he committed the physical act.

Right before castrating him, Ramsay had women sexually touch him. That was what I was referring to. Same as Millisandre and Gendry. We don't think of it as rape because we're kind of wired to think incorrectly that a heterosexual man would not object to being raped by an attractive woman. Technically all of Millisandre's sexual escapades have been rape as she uses magic as roofies.

If Ramsay had calmly taken her clothes off and had normal sex with her, it might not have been rape. She clearly did not consent to being violently assaulted. It doesn't matter that she was his wife, it was rape.

 

[Captaindemotion]

IIRC, Dany's wedding night with Drogo was more consensual in the book.

Also, while Theon was almost raped (in the same episode where Brienne was almost raped too), the rapist was killed by Ramsay before he committed the physical act.

Right before castrating him, Ramsay had women sexually touch him. That was what I was referring to. Same as Millisandre and Gendry. We don't think of it as rape because we're kind of wired to think incorrectly that a heterosexual man would not object to being raped by an attractive woman. Technically all of Millisandre's sexual escapades have been rape as she uses magic as roofies.

That's a sexual assault. It's not rape, at least, not by UK law. Rape is defined as follows:

Rape

(1)A person (A) commits an offence if—

(a)he intentionally penetrates the vagina, anus or mouth of another person (B) with his penis,

(b)B does not consent to the penetration, and

(c)A does not reasonably believe that B consents.

(2)Whether a belief is reasonable is to be determined having regard to all the circumstances, including any steps A has taken to ascertain whether B consents.

IIRC, Theon was not penetrated on this occasion. It was a sexual assault, yes, but not a rape.

If Ramsay had calmly taken her clothes off and had normal sex with her, it might not have been rape. She clearly did not consent to being violently assaulted. It doesn't matter that she was his wife, it was rape.

I raised the marriage issue because in English law, one could not rape ones wife until the 1980s, when the House of Lords overturned precious common law. Until then, a wife was always deemed to have consented to her husband's advances. I imagine that Westeros probably had a similar approach.

 

[Ryan8bit]

It's easy to look at the situations through our moral lens. Of course we would say a lot of these situations are rape, because that's what the morals of our times tell us. The morals of a different age would clearly be different. The characters in this show may not view these situations as rape, even though we clearly do.

It doesn't matter what producers or actors say, most people would view the Jaime/Cersei thing as rape. But would those individual characters consider it that way? Probably not. They have a different lens there.

Of course, the entire show is filled with things that most would consider morally repugnant, so it shouldn't come as a surprise.

 

[DigificWriter]

The Cersei/Jaime thing wasn't staged as a rape, and that is pretty clearly communicated during the scene itself, not only in the body language and general attitude of the actors, but also in the way it was shot.

 

[Ethros]

Slightly wrong, but because of these posts I've now totally got this song stuck in my head

 

[Ryan8bit]

If it was that clear, you probably wouldn't have a large number of people seeing it as rape. They kinda screwed up if they were trying to clearly make it not rape.

 

[Captaindemotion]

They totally screwed it up. Partly bad directing, partly bad writing but it totally looked like a man forcing himself on a woman and not taking No for an answer. Otherwise known as rape.

 

[Skywalker]

Yeah, I really don't think it was meant to be rape (Cersei's protests were more about the timing and the location, IMO), but the director seriously botched the execution on that scene.

 

[DarthTom]

It's easy to look at the situations through our moral lens. Of course we would say a lot of these situations are rape, because that's what the morals of our times tell us. The morals of a different age would clearly be different. The characters in this show may not view these situations as rape, even though we clearly do.

It doesn't matter what producers or actors say, most people would view the Jaime/Cersei thing as rape. But would those individual characters consider it that way? Probably not. They have a different lens there.

Of course, the entire show is filled with things that most would consider morally repugnant, so it shouldn't come as a surprise.

Martin commented on the Sansa scene and made an interesting observation I think. He compared it to other fictional characters, notably Scarlett Ohara in Gone with the Wind, where audiences likely didn't view Rhett Butlers scene at the time as rape.

Related to both circumstances - you have to wonder if modern audiences view Ohara's forced sex scene - albeit far less graphic - in a similar light as the ones depicted on G o T?

 

[JirinPanthosa]

That's a sexual assault. It's not rape, at least, not by UK law. Rape is defined as follows:

Rape

(1)A person (A) commits an offence if—

(a)he intentionally penetrates the vagina, anus or mouth of another person (B) with his penis,

(b)B does not consent to the penetration, and

(c)A does not reasonably believe that B consents.

(2)Whether a belief is reasonable is to be determined having regard to all the circumstances, including any steps A has taken to ascertain whether B consents.

IIRC, Theon was not penetrated on this occasion. It was a sexual assault, yes, but not a rape.

Wait, so it's not considered rape if somebody forcefully puts a man's penis into their vagina? You have to be on the concave end of the transaction?

It's definitely the biggest barrier to me in older fiction to see gender roles be different than gender roles today. In Gone With The Wind it's considered indecent for a woman to take charge of her own financial fate. In Sunrise, one of my favorite movies of all time, a man plans to murder his wife, changes his mind at the last minute, and then it takes one repentant conversation for her to completely forgive him.

 

[Captaindemotion]

Correct. Rape is a particular sexual crime but not all sexual crimes are rape

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/42/section/1

 

[Starbreaker]

Rape is something that happens every day all over the world. It's not something we should pretend doesn't exist. No one has boycotted this show over murder, incest, or any other of the horrific things that we would be appalled at in everyday life. Yes, rape is terrible. No, writing a rape scene is not the worst thing that has ever happened in the world.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Cogman tweeted:

The ‘choice’ I was referring to was Sansa’s choice to marry Ramsay and walk into that room. She feels marrying him is a vital step in reclaiming her homeland. Not trying to change anyone’s opinion of the scene (negative or otherwise) but that it what I was … Ok, LAST last word. In NO WAY… NO WAY was that comment an attempt to ‘blame the victim.’ If it seemed that way I’m deeply sorry.”

I cannot fathom this. He thinks she had a "choice" whether or not to marry Ramsay? WHAT choice? She was delivered into his hands. She was told she would marry him. If she refused she would have said her vows at sword point. Her only choice was to risk death by fleeing or go through with it and hope for some kind of improvement. That's not choice.

 

[theenglish]

Baelish continues to play a dangerous game but presumably he knows what he's doing. I think he's betting on all sides at this stage. My guess is that he'll watch the likely outcome of any battle for Winterfell, be it a Bolton win or a Baratheon one and will come in at the last minute to ensure victory for the already-winning side, so as to claim the glory.

Yes, this is what I think he's doing too... or what he thinks he's doing.

At one point Martin says the series ends with rows of graves--it was a tongue in cheek comment back then but is actually beginning to look like a possibility. Dany and the Dragons take Westeros only to have to battle the Wights in an apocalyptic battle.

Peter sits on the Iron Throne as the new ruler of Westeros.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

Cogman tweeted:

The ‘choice’ I was referring to was Sansa’s choice to marry Ramsay and walk into that room. She feels marrying him is a vital step in reclaiming her homeland. Not trying to change anyone’s opinion of the scene (negative or otherwise) but that it what I was … Ok, LAST last word. In NO WAY… NO WAY was that comment an attempt to ‘blame the victim.’ If it seemed that way I’m deeply sorry.”

I cannot fathom this. He thinks she had a "choice" whether or not to marry Ramsay? WHAT choice? She was delivered into his hands. She was told she would marry him. If she refused she would have said her vows at sword point. Her only choice was to risk death by fleeing or go through with it and hope for some kind of improvement. That's not choice.

This essay turned out to be all too prescient.

I don’t think this can be said forcefully enough: Sansa’s plotline this season is not about empowerment. It’s about the idea of empowerment being used to manipulate her, while she continues to be a victim of an incredibly dangerous situation.

Yes, there’s something intriguing about the moment she meets Roose Bolton, when she visibly hides her feelings and switches on her courtesies. And yes, there are hints of a rebellion in Sansa’s favor, especially in the servant’s comment that “the North remembers.” But she’s still a victim, still a pawn, just under a different guise.

No one can claim that Sansa’s decision to marry Ramsay Bolton was an empowered one. We can hardly claim that it’s a decision at all. Her pure hatred of the Boltons is clear the moment she states that “the Boltons have Winterfell,” and that hate turns into panic and grief the moment she realizes what Littlefinger has planned for her — another alliance with people who killed her family, another marriage against her will. Even with her ignorance about Ramsay Bolton’s sadistic nature, she has every reason to completely refuse to ally herself with them. And she does, fiercely, desperately. She will refuse to go, she will starve herself, she will die before she takes another step toward that castle that’s no longer her home. And although she cries, although she’s not crafty or manipulative or any of those other things that players of the game of thrones need to be, she does show strength here. A determination to express herself, defiance, self-preservation… she knows what she’s willing to do and she will fight to stop anyone from taking advantage of her again.

And then Littlefinger takes advantage of her. Not because she’s weak, but because he uses the very idea of strength and empowerment against her. People have been calling Sansa Stark weak and taking advantage of her ever since her father was arrested, and now here is somebody telling her she can be strong, someone telling her that she should want revenge, and seeming to present the perfect way for her to get it. When Littlefinger tells her that he won’t force her to marry Ramsay, that they will turn around as soon as she says the word, he creates the illusion of choice necessary for Sansa to feel that this marriage might be “empowerment,” and then he twists her feelings back on themselves, so that standing up for herself isn’t strength but weakness. It’s weak to run. It’s weak to weep, to be “a bystander to tragedy.” It’s strong to agree to Littlefinger’s plan and be married into a family that killed almost everyone she loved.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

But did the show GO TOO FAR?!?!?!

Seriously, CNN needs to stop saying the exact same thing every single time any TV show gets a little risky. It's boring, weak-kneed and cheesy. This week I have seen them do it for both Saturday Night Live and Game of Thrones and it's the third time this year I've seen them do it for Saturday Night Live. (CNN is always on in the break room at my work so I am exposed to this).

Did the show GO TOO FAR?!?!?!?! (Keeping too far as vague as possible without saying anything about the direction I am asking it went too far in.)

Why has Jora not considered amputating his arm? Is he in denial that his queen will magically find a way to heal him?

Baelish ending up as king would be the realistic ending. In real life, we would have President Baelish. That's why I don't think he's going to be King. I think King's Landing is going to be burned to the ground, and we will end up with separate Kingdoms with separate Kings holed up in their keeps with tenuous alliances to survive Winter.

I wonder what sort of orbit this planet has around its sun, such that winter and summer both last years. And I wonder if it has occurred to anybody to travel to the other hemisphere.

 

[Klaus]

^^In the books it's mentioned that amputation sometimes works to halt it, sometimes doesn't...