Gaith does Wonder Woman

[Broccoli]

Isn't the idea behind Wonder Woman that, in the past, the Amazons were screwed over by men, so they isolated themselves and thought negatively of men. But, now, things are different and WW is out there building bridges between the two worlds where the Amazons can start to revise their previously closed-minded thinking. If anything, that is a great message to put forth that men and women can be equals.

At least, it is no more preachy than the X-Men.

As I just said, if they want to admit that hating men is disgusting and they're wrong to do it then that's a good message to send.

On the other hand, if they feel superior to these new people they're interacting with because half of them are male then that's not a movie I want to see.

Thing is, I don't understand why you would think that would happen. Or at least believe that would be the only mindset of the Amazons in a potential Wonder Woman film.

 

[Nerys Myk]

^^^I just doent see how it different than Namor or Aquaman using "Surface World" or Thor using "Midgard". Its reflective of their culture. Seems like much ado about nothing

The term is used to refer to a place not run exclusively by women and thus 'inferior'. Of course, if the movie wants to emphasize how disgusting that attitude is then that's a different story.

Yes and the Atlanteans hate the surface dwellers and the Asgardian look down upon the humans as inferior. In the Amazons case they seem to fear "Man's World" and see it as corrupting rather than think of men as inferiors.

 

[Hermiod]

Thing is, I don't understand why you would think that would happen. Or at least believe that would be the only mindset of the Amazons in a potential Wonder Woman film.

It always happens in movies with female dominated or just plain all-female societies. It's steeped in the history of DC's Amazons, as you say, they're the embodied spirits of the world's women wronged by men.

 

[Hermiod]

Yes and the Atlanteans hate the surface dwellers and the Asgardian look down upon the humans as inferior. In the Amazons case they seem to fear "Man's World" and see it as corrupting rather than think of men as inferiors.

So, they're either misandrists or racists. Positive role models there.

We're not going to agree on this, so I think it's time to move on (again). I hope you all get the movie you're looking for and that Marvel comics movies thread is right about Ms. Marvel.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Yes and the Atlanteans hate the surface dwellers and the Asgardian look down upon the humans as inferior. In the Amazons case they seem to fear "Man's World" and see it as corrupting rather than think of men as inferiors.

So, they're either misandrists or racists. Positive role models there.

It can be about a journey from one mind set to another. They learn and the audience learns,

 

[Hermiod]

^See what I added before you replied.

 

[iguana_tonante]

Why would you have an example of a perfectly equal society is WW? Weren't you the one concerned with it being an issue on women's studies? It just need to be a different, isolated society, one that happens to be matriarchal (i.e. Amazons).

What I'm getting at is this - it will be very difficult for these Amazons, Themyscrians or whatever you want to call them, to adopt any kind of moral high ground if they basically have the same inequalities as anyone else. It doesn't really matter what group is valued less than another.

A matriarchy is not equal by its very definition.

Why they would have any moral high ground? You are the only one thinking this and reacting to it as if it's already decided. The fact that Amazon think that of themselves, doesn't make it true for the viewers. You are fighting your own demons here, nothing else.

What I'm getting at is this - it will be very difficult for these Amazons, Themyscrians or whatever you want to call them, to adopt any kind of moral high ground if they basically have the same inequalities as anyone else. It doesn't really matter what group is valued less than another.

A matriarchy is not equal by its very definition.

I think Wonder Womans is supposed to act a bridge between the two cultures. Showing the Amazons that "Man's World" isn't all evil.

Precisely.

^^^I just doent see how it different than Namor or Aquaman using "Surface World" or Thor using "Midgard". Its reflective of their culture. Seems like much ado about nothing

The term is used to refer to a place not run exclusively by women and thus 'inferior'. Of course, if the movie wants to emphasize how disgusting that attitude is then that's a different story.

Why would that be? Really, you are reaching at straws to get worked up upon the issue. As usual.

On the other hand, if they feel superior to these new people they're interacting with because half of them are male then that's not a movie I want to see.

And you are never gonna see it.

Yes and the Atlanteans hate the surface dwellers and the Asgardian look down upon the humans as inferior. In the Amazons case they seem to fear "Man's World" and see it as corrupting rather than think of men as inferiors.

So, they're either misandrists or racists. Positive role models there.

You are the only one wanting them to be positive role models. Wonder Woman is. The Amazons aren't.

 

[Nerys Myk]

^See what I added before you replied.

^ OKay, but I just dont think the movie's theme is goign to be "Amazon Man-haters club" nor is that the theme of Wonder Woman as a comic or a character.

 

[Hermiod]

You are fighting your own demons here, nothing else.

Why would that be? Really, you are reaching at straws to get worked up upon the issue. As usual.

And you are never gonna see it.

 

[hyzmarca]

Superfluous origin stories are superfluous. Everyone knows that Wonder Woman is an Amazon. There is no need to retell it. Starting In Media Res is a fairly good idea.

But anyway, the Bronze Age origin story really dropped the ball in an attempt to be darker and Edgier.

The Amazons are supposed to be the perfect balance of strength and feminity. They aren't just supposed to be gung-ho warrior women who beat up men. They're supposed to be kind, gentle, tender, reasonable, and submissive. They aren't man-hating, not at all. They're not even capable of hate. The hid themselves away so that they could develop their science and philosophy in peace until the world was ready to accept themnot out of hatred for men but out of love for future generations of both men and women who would benefit from what they were able to create in secret.

 

[iguana_tonante]

Hermiod, I can't help it you if you keep dragging the same points again and again and again.

People are telling you that your fears about what a WW movies would be will never happen, yet you keep whining about that as if it already happened. You always make your own bed, then complain you have to lie in it. I don't really know what we can say more about that.

 

[Hermiod]

I got out of that bed and agreed to disagree.

 

[Broccoli]

Superfluous origin stories are superfluous. Everyone knows that Wonder Woman is an Amazon. There is no need to retell it. Starting In Media Res is a fairly good idea.

While I'm all for movies starting in media res, Wonder Woman's origin has never really been explored in a mainstream media outlet. At least the same way that Supes or Batman's has.

I would argue that most, non-comic movie goers have little-to-no idea what Wonder Woman's backstory is other than that she is a superhero. It also provides the filmmakers to involve some Greek mythology into the film, something that, I think, is very lacking in movies these days.

 

[doubleohfive]

I don't even have a clue what you're referring to.

Edit: Oh wait, are you talking about that thread where backpeddled like a fool? <just pats your little head again> You really should get out if your whole life revolves around minor, worthless discussions like that. You really, really should.

But somehow I doubt you will.

No, I'm talking about the thread where I asked you to prove your case several times. Then several other posters asked you to prove your case several more times.

Why ? Because you can't comprehend anything. You wade in looking for a fight and then run away when you can't prove your case.

You see, I raised that because I have this thing called a memory. You can't really form opinions without one, you realise that, don't you ?

As for your judgemental view of "worth a damn". There was you, a guy who fills in his sentences with F-words because apparently that makes him look like he's not twelve years old, and doubleohfive - and the less said about that guy the better.

From now on, if you find anything I say objectionable, notify the moderators. Otherwise, be quiet and behave yourself.

Clearly "the less said about [me] the better" does not preclude taking unrelated potshots at me in threads I am not participating in. Nicely done.

If I wasn't already so busy trying to console a friend who has now, since the beginning of the year lost her younger sister to an aneurysm and her father (just last weekend) to heart attacks, I'd probably be able to conjure up the will to put you in your place. Right now though I just don't have time.

I'm sure the mods will repeat this later Hermiod, but it'll do you good to remember in the future when you continue to bring up these things: "Post, not poster"

I don't know (or care, really) what your beef with Checkmate is, but I don't see how I have anything to do with it. I'll thank you to leave me out of your little crusade.

From now on, if you find anything I say objectionable, man up, speak up, and message me directly about it. Otherwise, shut the hell up.

 

[Neroon]

I don't even have a clue what you're referring to.

Edit: Oh wait, are you talking about that thread where backpeddled like a fool? <just pats your little head again> You really should get out if your whole life revolves around minor, worthless discussions like that. You really, really should.

But somehow I doubt you will.

No, I'm talking about the thread where I asked you to prove your case several times. Then several other posters asked you to prove your case several more times.

Why ? Because you can't comprehend anything. You wade in looking for a fight and then run away when you can't prove your case.

You see, I raised that because I have this thing called a memory. You can't really form opinions without one, you realise that, don't you ?

As for your judgemental view of "worth a damn". There was you, a guy who fills in his sentences with F-words because apparently that makes him look like he's not twelve years old, and doubleohfive - and the less said about that guy the better.

From now on, if you find anything I say objectionable, notify the moderators. Otherwise, be quiet and behave yourself.

Clearly "the less said about [me] the better" does not preclude taking unrelated potshots at me in threads I am not participating in. Nicely done.

If I wasn't already so busy trying to console a friend who has now, since the beginning of the year lost her younger sister to an aneurysm and her father (just last weekend) to heart attacks, I'd probably be able to conjure up the will to put you in your place. Right now though I just don't have time.

I'm sure the mods will repeat this later Hermiod, but it'll do you good to remember in the future when you continue to bring up these things: "Post, not poster"

I don't know (or care, really) what your beef with Checkmate is, but I don't see how I have anything to do with it. I'll thank you to leave me out of your little crusade.

From now on, if you find anything I say objectionable, man up, speak up, and message me directly about it. Otherwise, shut the hell up.

And the exchange stops right here, now.

Hermiod, you need to take doubleohfive's advice and notify the moderators next time if you have such a problem with what they say. The off-topic and personalization of conflicts will not help in any way.

Checkmate your mocking tone didn't exactly solve any problems, either.

Do not take this up in thread or there will be infractions. Instead, as always all comments to PM, if you please.

 

[Sharr Khan]

Superfluous origin stories are superfluous. Everyone knows that Wonder Woman is an Amazon. There is no need to retell it. Starting In Media Res is a fairly good idea.

While I'm all for movies starting in media res, Wonder Woman's origin has never really been explored in a mainstream media outlet. At least the same way that Supes or Batman's has.

I would argue that most, non-comic movie goers have little-to-no idea what Wonder Woman's backstory is other than that she is a superhero. It also provides the filmmakers to involve some Greek mythology into the film, something that, I think, is very lacking in movies these days.

Its only "superfluous" to those who inhabit forums of this nature, not the general movie going public.

This applies to Superman as well. Just cause you know it doesn't mean the average joe is plugged into the whole story. If they reboot they need to go all the way - though their last experiment with half way reboots probably made that clear.

I mean everyone knows the story of Hamlet so why retell it? Its not even a point that "everyone knows" Wonder Woman's background, its that whoever works on it should be allowed to put their own artistic mark on it.

 

[Greg Cox]

But if you're talking about a movie, you're talking about having to deal with it. Movies are also prime opportunities to retool characters, and Wonder Woman's backstory, along with her costume, is in deep need of retooling. It's the main reason no one can get the character to screen. You're a good writer, Greg, I've read some of your books. Try to sit down and work up a treatment for a Wonder Woman origin movie and see how well it goes, and look at what the problems are. You're going to sell in this day and age Perez's reincarnated female victims of abuse sending an ambassador to the rest of the world? Is Wonder Woman going to sit down with Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and preach to her about how Patriarch's World just needs to understand that women are powerful? I mean, just look at that, "Patriarch's World" - it's completely unwieldy and feels like soooo Women's Studies circa 1983..

Thanks for the kind words. By coincidence, I just got an advance copy of my FINAL CRISIS novelization, with Wonder Woman on the cover, in the mail yesterday.

I agree that the whole reincarnated abuse victims thing is way too cumbersome for a movie, and I'm not saying you have to literally cling to every obscure bit of comic book trivia. I just don't think the usual Greco-Romans trappings are a problem, and I'm not sure how making her more historically accurate actually makes the movie more marketable. It's not like the average moviegoer is going to "Oh, she's authentically Scythian now. That makes her much more appealing!"

Mostly, I admit, I have a kneejerk reaction against trying to make comic book superheroes more "believable" and "realistic." That strikes me as missing the point. I want to see Wonder Woman fighting mythological monsters and deflecting bullets with her bracelets, etc.

As to the matriarchy/Women's Studies thing, I doubt that any modern movie is going to have WW lecturing people on feminism. And, personally, I never got an anti-man vibe from Wonder Woman. To the contrary, she always seemed to be the Amazon most interested in engaging with "Man's World" and seeing what it had to offer.

If I was writing the movie, that's the approach I would take. It's not about WW trying to bestow the blessings of her superior civilization on the rest of us; it's about, in part, her overcoming the ancient isolationism of her people, while simultaneously providing inspiration to women and people all over the world . . . .

She'd doesn't need to be preachy about it, anymore than Superman does. And, chances are, a $100 million dollar summer movie is going to be more about exciting action scenes than gender politics anyway . . . .

 

[iguana_tonante]

As to the matriarchy/Women's Studies thing, I doubt that any modern movie is going to have WW lecturing people on feminism. And, personally, I never got an anti-man vibe from Wonder Woman. To the contrary, she always seemed to be the Amazon most interested in engaging with "Man's World" and seeing what it had to offer.

If I was writing the movie, that's the approach I would take. It's not about WW trying to bestow the blessings of her superior civilization on the rest of us; it's about, in part, her overcoming the ancient isolationism of her people, while simultaneously providing inspiration to women and people all over the world . . . .

She'd doesn't need to be preachy about it, anymore than Superman does. And, chances are, a $100 million dollar summer movie is going to be more about exciting action scenes than gender politics anyway . . . .

Exactly what I was trying to say, except with better words and more sense. Thanks Greg.

 

[hyzmarca]

I mean everyone knows the story of Hamlet so why retell it?

Exactly. Instead of just another boring retelling of Hamlet, I'd much rather someone do a sequel. Perhaps one in which Hamlet rises from the dead to prevent an invasion of Denmark led by Vlad "Dracula" Tepes.

Wouldn't you love to see Hamlet wading through a million-strong army of udead Romanians like a Cuisinart with dual broadswords. Wouldn't you love to see an epic duel between the Prince of Denmark and the King of Vampires, one in which their missed blows split mountains in half and create new rivers?

 

[Mike Farley]

I'd watch that movie.