Gaith does Wonder Woman

[Hermiod]

^It's already matriarchal by virtue of having a Queen as it's ruler.

Most societies are trying to improve in terms of equality, so unless the message of the movie is 'treat men better' what would be the point?

Wouldn't a society where everyone is treated equally be a better example to the world than one that has exactly the same set of social problems?

 

[Broccoli]

If you are going to use the Greek Gods, why not use the Amazons? This is fiction after all and I highly doubt that movie goers are going to bitch about how true the Amazons are or are not compared to their mythological/historical roots.

I mean, hell, look at Clash of the Titans, that film (the original, at least) crapped all over Greek mythology, but that didn't stop it from becoming a popular, enjoyable film.

Because I want to eliminate the all-female society aspect.

Doesn't that kind of miss the point of Wonder Woman though?

As soon as you include that it turns in to a women's studies lecture rather than a piece of entertainment.

I disagree. It seemed to work just fine in the animated movie from a few years ago.

Using that logic, why kill Batman's parents? Or have the Joker be nothing more than just a harmless prankster criminal? After all, it will just turn into a psychology lecture.

In any event, who says it can't be both? People who want to look deeper into can, but it can also just be part of the origin and be taken at face value.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Yeah, no Greeks stuff. No Island of Women. Dont call them Amazons. And while we're at it, make her a blonde in a track suit.

 

[Checkmate]

I, too, want a Wonder Woman movies that's not about Wonder Woman or her well-established origin, but instead about an ordinary guy who only gets into a mild verbal disagreement with another guy who shouldn't be called a villain because someone living under a rock might be upset by that.

Girl superheroes? That's hard enough to believe! But a mythical people from Greecian mythology living on an equally mythical island protected by mythical gods? That's just not possible. No one would ever buy that in a million years. Atlantis? Clash of the Titans? Never heard of those stories and I've certainly never seen a movie like that ever. Nope. Impossible to exist. Audiences are far too dim-witted to understand, well, anything.

Someone needs to make Hermiod a major Hollywood producer. He has his finger on the pulse of humanity.

 

[Hermiod]

Yeah, no Greeks stuff. No Island of Women. Dont call them Amazons. And while we're at it, make her a blonde in a track suit.

I said use the Greek Gods, I said call them Amazons if necessary.

If you make the movie you want gets made you may as well just give every woman who goes to see it a feminism textbook to beat every man they know to death with because that's about as subtle and a hell of a lot more entertaining.

Or, you could portray an advanced, genuinely equal society.

 

[Nerys Myk]

^I said use the Greek Gods, I said call them Amazons if necessary.

If you make the movie you want gets made you may as well just give every woman who goes to see it a feminism textbook to beat every man they know to death with because that's about as subtle and a hell of a lot more entertaining.

You're not the only poster in this thread.

 

[Hermiod]

You're not the only poster in this thread.

No, just the one you appeared to be responding to.

I, too, want a Wonder Woman movies that's not about Wonder Woman or her well-established origin, but instead about an ordinary guy who only gets into a mild verbal disagreement with another guy who shouldn't be called a villain because someone living under a rock might be upset by that.

Girl superheroes? That's hard enough to believe! But a mythical people from Greecian mythology living on an equally mythical island protected by mythical gods? That's just not possible. No one would ever buy that in a million years. Atlantis? Clash of the Titans? Never heard of those stories and I've certainly never seen a movie like that ever. Nope. Impossible to exist. Audiences are far too dim-witted to understand, well, anything.

Someone needs to make Hermiod a major Hollywood producer. He has his finger on the pulse of humanity.

So, as your poor attempt at sarcasm seems to be suggesting, you think nobody would believe ideas I already suggested and promoted earlier in the thread ?

Tell you what, if you want to explore your getting beaten up by girls fetish, I'm sure Craigslist will hit you up with more than a few names who'll provide their services at reasonable rates. I'm sure they'll tell you how much you, as a man, are weak and pathetic and belong under a woman's boot heel too. Doesn't make for good movies, though.

Now, while Checkmate is off to the bank to get the money, the grown ups can get back to discussing this sensibly.

 

[Nerys Myk]

You're not the only poster in this thread.

Why's that? I didn't quote you. Or ^^^^ you.

In your case I find it funny that a guy who loves a character named Ms Marvel would want the feminist aspect of Wonder Woman downplayed or eliminated.

 

[Hermiod]

Why's that? I didn't quote you. Or ^^^^ you.

You made comments that suggested that you disagreed with the idea that some of the more sledgehammer-esque aspects of the character should be dropped. Sorry if I misunderstood you.

In your case I find it funny that a guy who loves a character named Ms Marvel would want the feminist aspect of Wonder Woman downplayed or eliminated.

The difference is that Ms. Marvel leads by example, not by being from some perfect all female society where men are, at the very best, looked down upon.

She's a great hero, a prominent Avenger (even their leader from time to time) and popular with the masses. She doesn't need to babble on about "Man's world" to be respected.

Oh, about the 'Ms.' part. If I could, I change her name back to Warbird or Binary. Not because of the Ms. part, but the Marvel part. It kind of sidelines her as a female copy of Marv which doesn't do her or him any justice.

 

[iguana_tonante]

^It's already matriarchal by virtue of having a Queen as it's ruler.

Not necessarily. Britain has a Queen, too, but it's hardly matriarchal. I mean a truly matriarchal society, with women as leaders and enforcers of law.

Most societies are trying to improve in terms of equality, so unless the message of the movie is 'treat men better' what would be the point?

That they are Amazons?

If you take out the matriarchal aspect, what makes them Amazons? And while you can change some part of the backstory, WW is an Amazon. It's a fundamental part of her character: if can't get away from it and still have WW.

Wouldn't a society where everyone is treated equally be a better example to the world than one that has exactly the same set of social problems?

Why would you have an example of a perfectly equal society is WW? Weren't you the one concerned with it being an issue on women's studies? It just need to be a different, isolated society, one that happens to be matriarchal (i.e. Amazons).

 

[Nerys Myk]

Why's that? I didn't quote you. Or ^^^^ you.

You made comments that suggested that you disagreed with the idea that some of the more sledgehammer-esque aspects of the character should be dropped. Sorry if I misunderstood you.

In your case I find it funny that a guy who loves a character named Ms Marvel would want the feminist aspect of Wonder Woman downplayed or eliminated.

The difference is that Ms. Marvel leads by example, not by being from some perfect all female society where men are, at the very best, looked down upon.

She's a great hero, a prominent Avenger (even their leader from time to time) and popular with the masses. She doesn't need to babble on about "Man's world" to be respected.

Maybe in the MU, but out here in the real world mention of her is gonna get a lot of blank stares.

In the DCU WW is also a great hero, a member of the JLA trinity (the leaders in fact if not always in name) and popular with the masses. She's also respected and admired by her fellow heroes for her deeds and not babbling about "Man's World". I just read about 40 recent issues of Wonder Woman. Can't say the term "Man's World" came up much, if at all.

 

[Hermiod]

Why would you have an example of a perfectly equal society is WW? Weren't you the one concerned with it being an issue on women's studies? It just need to be a different, isolated society, one that happens to be matriarchal (i.e. Amazons).

What I'm getting at is this - it will be very difficult for these Amazons, Themyscrians or whatever you want to call them, to adopt any kind of moral high ground if they basically have the same inequalities as anyone else. It doesn't really matter what group is valued less than another.

A matriarchy is not equal by its very definition.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Why would you have an example of a perfectly equal society is WW? Weren't you the one concerned with it being an issue on women's studies? It just need to be a different, isolated society, one that happens to be matriarchal (i.e. Amazons).

What I'm getting at is this - it will be very difficult for these Amazons, Themyscrians or whatever you want to call them, to adopt any kind of moral high ground if they basically have the same inequalities as anyone else. It doesn't really matter what group is valued less than another.

A matriarchy is not equal by its very definition.

I think Wonder Womans is supposed to act a bridge between the two cultures. Showing the Amazons that "Man's World" isn't all evil.

 

[Hermiod]

Maybe in the MU, but out here in the real world mention of her is gonna get a lot of blank stares.

I speak only of her in-universe popularity. I know most people don't know who she is. She's not a major character, I get that. That said, though she may be more popular, that isn't represented in the sales figures for Wonder Woman's solo title no matter how many new writers and relaunches they give her.

She is, however, Marvel's choice as their most prominent superheroine these days. You only have to walk around a Tube station over here to see that, as she's on the posters for the Madame Tussauds Marvel 4D exhibit with Spider-Man, Cap, Iron Man and the Hulk.

In the DCU WW is also a great hero, a member of the JLA trinity (the leaders in fact if not always in name) and popular with the masses. She's also respected and admired by her fellow heroes for her deeds and not babbling about "Man's World". I just read about 40 recent issues of Wonder Woman. Can't say the term "Man's World" came up much, if at all.

Maybe not in the comics these days, but the comics aren't telling her origin story. Ultimately, she's not just going to be some superhuman woman who appeared out of nowhere, is she ?

 

[Nerys Myk]

Maybe in the MU, but out here in the real world mention of her is gonna get a lot of blank stares.

I speak only of her in-universe popularity. I know most people don't know who she is. She's not a major character, I get that.

She is, however, Marvel's choice as their most prominent superheroine these days. You only have to walk around a Tube station over here to see that, as she's on the posters for the Madame Tussauds Marvel 4D exhibit with Spider-Man, Cap, Iron Man and the Hulk.

In the DCU WW is also a great hero, a member of the JLA trinity (the leaders in fact if not always in name) and popular with the masses. She's also respected and admired by her fellow heroes for her deeds and not babbling about "Man's World". I just read about 40 recent issues of Wonder Woman. Can't say the term "Man's World" came up much, if at all.

Maybe not in the comics these days, but the comics aren't telling her origin story.

So Ms Marvel is the female face of Marvel? Yet she has no book of her own and most of the public has no clue who she is? Poor showing on Marvels part.

Yeah, "Man's World" might be included in dialog of a WW origin story. So what? As I said WW role is that of a uniting figure who after coming to "Man's World" will realise it has virtues.

 

[Hermiod]

So Ms Marvel is the female face of Marvel? Yet she has no book of her own and most of the public has no clue who she is? Poor showing on Marvels part.

Well, to be fair, Marvel's in the middle of a huge shake-up. The only other prominent heroines to have their own solo titles at all lately were She-Hulk, which seems to come and go randomly, and Spider-Woman, which was only a mini-series.

Yeah, "Man's World" might be included in dialog of a WW origin strory. So what? As I said WW role is that of a uniting figure who after coming to "Man's World" will realise it has virtues.

As soon as you use the term it turns in to a lecture no matter how much you try to avoid it.

Anyway, I've said my piece on this. If it turns out badly I just won't go see it. If it's too overbearing I'm sure my chances of seeing a real female hero on the big screen will be reduced to zero. I hope I'm wrong.

 

[Nerys Myk]

^^^I just doent see how it different than Namor or Aquaman using "Surface World" or Thor using "Midgard". Its reflective of their culture. Seems like much ado about nothing

 

[Hermiod]

^^^I just doent see how it different than Namor or Aquaman using "Surface World" or Thor using "Midgard". Its reflective of their culture. Seems like much ado about nothing

The term is used to refer to a place not run exclusively by women and thus 'inferior'. Of course, if the movie wants to emphasize how disgusting that attitude is then that's a different story.

 

[Broccoli]

Isn't the idea behind Wonder Woman that, in the past, the Amazons were screwed over by men, so they isolated themselves and thought negatively of men. But, now, things are different and WW is out there building bridges between the two worlds where the Amazons can start to revise their previously closed-minded thinking. If anything, that is a great message to put forth that men and women can be equals.

At least, it is no more preachy than the X-Men.

 

[Hermiod]

Isn't the idea behind Wonder Woman that, in the past, the Amazons were screwed over by men, so they isolated themselves and thought negatively of men. But, now, things are different and WW is out there building bridges between the two worlds where the Amazons can start to revise their previously closed-minded thinking. If anything, that is a great message to put forth that men and women can be equals.

At least, it is no more preachy than the X-Men.

As I just said, if they want to admit that hating men is disgusting and they're wrong to do it then that's a good message to send.

On the other hand, if they feel superior to these new people they're interacting with because half of them are male then that's not a movie I want to see.