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Gaith does Wonder Woman

Is this suit concept on the right track?

  • Yeah. The comics suit looks ridiculous and will never fly on the big screen.

    Votes: 4 12.5%
  • No, the comics suit is fine! Which is why there've been so many WW movies already!

    Votes: 21 65.6%
  • The comics suit wouldn't work, but this ain't much better.

    Votes: 3 9.4%
  • Nobody cares about Wonder Woman!

    Votes: 4 12.5%

  • Total voters
    32
But Wonder Woman is first, foremost, and most clearly, an Amazon.

Nah. I would argue that she is first and foremost a famous comic book superheroine, who was never meant to be an historically accurate depiction of an Amazon, unless the ancient Amazons also had magic golden lassos, bulletproof bracelets, and invisible airplanes.

:lol:

But come on - adding to and updating characters based on advancing knowledge, fashion and cultural taste is traditional too. Otherwise Superman would still be only leaping about and there'd be no technobabble about him having solar energy cells to explain his strength and invulnerability.


Yep, in Woman Woman the Amazons speak, worship and dress Greek.

But that was, in itself, an update. They didn't do that before the Perez reboot, which made them much, much more Greek than they'd ever been before. Originally pretty much all the historical material in Wonder Woman was Roman, not Greek - named Diana, the Roman goddess of the hunt, she originally fought Mars, the Roman god of war, spouting exclamations like "Merciful Minerva!", another Roman goddess. Then almost all of the classical stuff disappeared until Perez revived it and made it central.

My point is, if Perez can reboot her to make her historical influences more Greek, why can't they now be updated to bring them more in line with what's been discovered, especially since her character has already drifted more along the lines of what's turning up about the actual Amazons? Also, the fact that we know far less about the Scythians than we do about the Greeks actually leaves more room for fantasy invention. And you don't even have to leave out the Greek stuff, just instead of making it basis of the Amazonian culture, it's the culture of their primary enemies - which puts her more at odds with the modern West, which is so strongly born of Greek influences. It gives a reason for the Amazons to be wary of the modern world without it having to hinge completely on patriarchy versus a pure female society, which is the part of the whole thing that's starting to feel really out of touch. That feminist message was fantastic and empowering in the 1940s and even in the 1970s, but it's becoming a problem because it's out of step with relations between men and women today.
 
I suppose there's no reason the art director and production people can't look at some history books when they're designing the look of Paradise Island, but I suspect that most people who buy a ticket to a WONDER WOMAN movie are going to want the traditional comic book trappings, regardless of whether they're historically accurate or not.

Lord knows XENA butchered History As We Know It, and it never hurt the ratings.

Next you're going to be telling me that the ancient Egyptians didn't actually have a mysterious "Nth Metal" that allow reincarnated pharoahs to fly like hawks, and that "Shazam!" is not really a genuine mystical incantation . . . :)
 
"Greek" and "Roman" are something most folks can identify with. "Scythians" not so much.


I don't know, they didn't have much trouble with "the Riders of Rohan" which I'm pretty sure at least 75% of the audience hadn't ever heard of. I sure hadn't. And I think "badass Bronze Age women warriors" translates pretty well no matter what they're called.

I suppose there's no reason the art director and production people can't look at some history books when they're designing the look of Paradise Island, but I suspect that most people who buy a ticket to a WONDER WOMAN movie are going to want the traditional comic book trappings, regardless of whether they're historically accurate or not.

Lord knows XENA butchered History As We Know It, and it never hurt the ratings.

Next you're going to be telling me that the ancient Egyptians didn't actually have a mysterious "Nth Metal" that allow reincarnated pharoahs to fly like hawks, and that "Shazam!" is not really a genuine mystical incantation . . . :)


Hee! Like I said, accuracy isn't the point. Changing the rationale behind the relationship of the Amazons to, and therefore Wonder Woman's reason for being in, the rest of the world is. The thing is, I was raised a feminist. I marched for the ERA when I was 8 years old. My mom gave me the hard back collection of 1941 Wonder Woman comic reprints with the introductory essay on Amazons by Gloria Steinem that same year. It totally worked in the 70s. But today, you have to either figure the Amazons as some bizarre extremist society with the whole no men thing, or you have to basically ignore them. Plenty of good contemporary comics stories do ignore them and maybe that's why this seems immaterial.

But if you're talking about a movie, you're talking about having to deal with it. Movies are also prime opportunities to retool characters, and Wonder Woman's backstory, along with her costume, is in deep need of retooling. It's the main reason no one can get the character to screen. You're a good writer, Greg, I've read some of your books. Try to sit down and work up a treatment for a Wonder Woman origin movie and see how well it goes, and look at what the problems are. You're going to sell in this day and age Perez's reincarnated female victims of abuse sending an ambassador to the rest of the world? Is Wonder Woman going to sit down with Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and preach to her about how Patriarch's World just needs to understand that women are powerful? I mean, just look at that, "Patriarch's World" - it's completely unwieldy and feels like soooo Women's Studies circa 1983.

If someone doesn't come up with a good idea to reboot all that, Wonder Woman's never going to make it to the screen and that would be a tragedy because she is an icon. But what's iconic about her? It's not the Greek trappings, at least not to the public at large who probably do remember the invisible plane, big boobs and star spangled panties more than anything else. And this new historical information, I think, is a rich pool of untapped potential which the character desperately needs. Diana is a character that emerges out of ancient history and this stuff opens up the mythological background she's set in - you could totally mix it up with the Greek stuff if you wanted to, go crazy and invent freely, whatever. Or forget about it and do whatever you want, I just think it's rich material to mine. The point is a movie is a chance to redefine the Amazons and soldifiy the changes in the character that have been accumulating since Kingdom Come. In fact, I'd say she's already changed signficantly, just no ones bothered to update her backstory to catch up to that. I can feel the mismatch, and I'm pretty sure the Warner Brothers people can too which is why they keep axing screenplays.

But that's just the opinion of one lone fangirl...
 
^
I don't think comic fans would be happy with a total reboot of her back story...the general public could care less...just as long as she looked like "Wonder Woman" which to most would be how Lynda Carter portrayed her.
 
Lynda Carter was fine back in the day. But now you really need someone more credibly built and a costume less obviously T&A motivated and less silly.
 
"Greek" and "Roman" are something most folks can identify with. "Scythians" not so much.


I don't know, they didn't have much trouble with "the Riders of Rohan" which I'm pretty sure at least 75% of the audience hadn't ever heard of. I sure hadn't. And I think "badass Bronze Age women warriors" translates pretty well no matter what they're called.
To most folks Rohan is just as made up a Krypton. There' no cultural association involved. Wonder Woman's Amazon are associated with Greco-Roman culture. And its not like the Various Greek City-states weren't at each other throats from time to time. It usually took an outside force like the Persians to get them to to act together.(though kidnapping a woman can do it to) So Amazon Greeks vs Other Greeks isn't a stretch.
 
:lol: As much as I dislike Megan Fox's acting...she is workin' the look quite well. ;)

You mean Wonder Woman has a constant blank expression on her face? :p



Have Superman wear Wonder Woman's costume and Wonder Woman wear Superman's costume. Wait...it's been done already.

I think Lois might have an issue with that!

Nah...she's into it. Turns out Lois and Clark are swingers and frequently attend key parties.


So is that why Superman used to have that giant key pointed to the Fortress? :)

Yes.

Well, that and the fact that it was highly suggestive.
 
If there is something I learned on this board, is that Lapis always knows what she's talking about. :techman:

You're a good writer, Greg, I've read some of your books. Try to sit down and work up a treatment for a Wonder Woman origin movie and see how well it goes, and look at what the problems are. You're going to sell in this day and age Perez's reincarnated female victims of abuse sending an ambassador to the rest of the world? Is Wonder Woman going to sit down with Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and preach to her about how Patriarch's World just needs to understand that women are powerful? I mean, just look at that, "Patriarch's World" - it's completely unwieldy and feels like soooo Women's Studies circa 1983.

If someone doesn't come up with a good idea to reboot all that, Wonder Woman's never going to make it to the screen and that would be a tragedy because she is an icon. But what's iconic about her? It's not the Greek trappings, at least not to the public at large who probably do remember the invisible plane, big boobs and star spangled panties more than anything else. And this new historical information, I think, is a rich pool of untapped potential which the character desperately needs. Diana is a character that emerges out of ancient history and this stuff opens up the mythological background she's set in - you could totally mix it up with the Greek stuff if you wanted to, go crazy and invent freely, whatever. Or forget about it and do whatever you want, I just think it's rich material to mine. The point is a movie is a chance to redefine the Amazons and soldifiy the changes in the character that have been accumulating since Kingdom Come. In fact, I'd say she's already changed signficantly, just no ones bothered to update her backstory to catch up to that. I can feel the mismatch, and I'm pretty sure the Warner Brothers people can too which is why they keep axing screenplays.

But that's just the opinion of one lone fangirl...
I strongly second that notion. Awesome stuff, just in need of a strong writer and some undaunted producers.
 
I agree with Lapis too, for the simple reason that if, with any story, you just try to make one group who will make up a very large slice of the audience feel guilty then you'll just end up with one massive box office flop.

I wouldn't even use the word "Amazon" to be honest. I'd just have these advanced people, male and female, from an island that the Greek Gods (or whoever) cut off from the rest of the world to protect them. Say, for instance, the Gods kept them safe because while the rest of the world forgot about them, the Themyscrians continued to accept them.

These Gods then blessed the entire populace with extraordinary long life and the royal family with superhuman powers. Then, through some accident, a man from the outside world lands on the Island and their Princess decides to return with him to America to see the world. She arrives in the US and becomes a massive, but reluctant, celebrity (explaining how she gets the name Wonder Woman), though her government and the UN don't trust each other.

However, this opens a door for some powerful villain - say Circe or somebody, I don't know - who has plotted against Themyscria for millennia but has always been blocked by the Gods, to attack them as a prelude to taking over the rest of the world and Wonder Woman has to stop her.

Usually, I'm a strong advocate for sticking closely to the source material but in this case, the guy created an island full of women just because he liked seeing women tied up. I can buy a Hogtied subscription for that these days, thanks.

I don't go to the movies for a lecture on women's studies. If a movie ends up being all about Wonder Woman trying to change "Man's world" then I and a lot of other people will be leaving it in the bargain DVD bin - a comic book movie with an overall "men suck" message isn't exactly going to topple Avatar.
 
If you are going to use the Greek Gods, why not use the Amazons? This is fiction after all and I highly doubt that movie goers are going to bitch about how true the Amazons are or are not compared to their mythological/historical roots.

I mean, hell, look at Clash of the Titans, that film (the original, at least) crapped all over Greek mythology, but that didn't stop it from becoming a popular, enjoyable film.
 
They have to be Amazons.
A small group of women disgusted with the harsh treatment of other women at the time banded together and set out on their own. Gathering many others they attempted to form their own nation only to be attacked by rival male armies. As they were about to be beaten their leader prayed to the gods for help. Help was given in the form of an island hidden from the view of man and eternal life. The drawback was they would never be allowed to procreate and could never leave the island. Over thousands of years they developed their own culture. They became the stuff of legends which today modern society calls Amazons.
Now we have this nice little island with all these women from all over representing many cultures and peoples.
The leader after thousands of years now wants a child. She call to her gods and they again grant her request. Using clay from the island itself she fashions a child which is given life by the gods. The drawback is the island will no longer remain hidden from man and when her daughter comes of age she must be sent to the world of man to see what has become of it.

That will take about ten minutes of compressed montage action and screen time with voice over narration by one of the actors in the movie and we can get on with the story.
 
If you are going to use the Greek Gods, why not use the Amazons? This is fiction after all and I highly doubt that movie goers are going to bitch about how true the Amazons are or are not compared to their mythological/historical roots.

I mean, hell, look at Clash of the Titans, that film (the original, at least) crapped all over Greek mythology, but that didn't stop it from becoming a popular, enjoyable film.

Because I want to eliminate the all-female society aspect. As soon as you include that it turns in to a women's studies lecture rather than a piece of entertainment.

If they're just called Amazons but are an equal, non-misandrist society then that's fine with me. It's not the name I'm bothered about.
 
They have to be Amazons.
A small group of women disgusted with the harsh treatment of other women at the time banded together and set out on their own. Gathering many others they attempted to form their own nation only to be attacked by rival male armies. As they were about to be beaten their leader prayed to the gods for help. Help was given in the form of an island hidden from the view of man and eternal life. The drawback was they would never be allowed to procreate and could never leave the island. Over thousands of years they developed their own culture. They became the stuff of legends which today modern society calls Amazons.
Now we have this nice little island with all these women from all over representing many cultures and peoples.
The leader after thousands of years now wants a child. She call to her gods and they again grant her request. Using clay from the island itself she fashions a child which is given life by the gods. The drawback is the island will no longer remain hidden from man and when her daughter comes of age she must be sent to the world of man to see what has become of it.

That will take about ten minutes of compressed montage action and screen time with voice over narration by one of the actors in the movie and we can get on with the story.

The problem there is that you are basing their society on misandry and hate.
 
Because I want to eliminate the all-female society aspect. As soon as you include that it turns in to a women's studies lecture rather than a piece of entertainment.

If they're just called Amazons but are an equal, non-misandrist society then that's fine with me. It's not the name I'm bothered about.
I can agree with eliminating the all-female society as unworkable (except in the most hard-core mythological interpretation: i.e. immortality of the Temysicirans), but I still want their society to be matriarchal. With all the patriarchal societies around, one can hardly complain.

The problem there is that you are basing their society on misandry and hate.
Only in the same way America is based on "miseuropeany" and hate. It's just a group of people wanting to be left alone governing themselves because they don't like the way they are treated in their former community, whatever their gender.
 
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