First-Timer's Impressions of Deep Space Nine
- Thread starter Jimmy Bob
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Whispers
Wow. Didn't see that coming.
That had to hurt. I mean, after all you've been through - realizing that your world is not real, spying, getting caught, escaping and hijacking a ship - then you get shot and told that you're not real. Have a nice death! Ouch.
Seriously crappy day.
But I loved the episode. Finally, DS9 is back on a roll.
Wow. Didn't see that coming.
That had to hurt. I mean, after all you've been through - realizing that your world is not real, spying, getting caught, escaping and hijacking a ship - then you get shot and told that you're not real. Have a nice death! Ouch.
Seriously crappy day.
But I loved the episode. Finally, DS9 is back on a roll.
Nailed it!
See, this is exactly what I'm talking about, lame attempts at humour to make you feel better about the fact that you're wasting your life posting reviews on a Star Trek board. It's quite sad really. I can see it now: You're a young man unsure of his place in the world. You're struggling to get through college, everyone else seems smarter than you and you're falling behind. You wasted all your money on frivolous things. You get scared by the thought of spiders. The only woman you ever loved left you for a fat, bearded 26 year-old virgin. You spend your days sitting in your bedroom listening to this specific live performance of In the Air Tonight over and over again.Armageddon Game
Oh god it's the revenge of ridiculous hair! Run!
Everyone: "Bla-bla-bla. We did it."
Bored now.
Oh dear, more ridiculous hair. Remind me why you even had that civil war in the first place? Was it to find out who's hair is more ridiculous? Well, you win. I bet you're evil too.
And you think you have the right to tell us what makes good television?!
In fairness, in this episode we actually saw the "real" characters reacting to the news of their friends' death, whereas in Coda we saw Janeway's imaginings of everyone being saddened by her death. Sure, they're not really dead, but their reactions were "real".
Yeah, that's probably the best part of the episode, Quark's reaction was sincere and heart-felt while still being perfectly in line with Ferengi sensibilities.
I used to consider this one of the worst episodes of the show, but in recent years I've come to tolerate it because of the chemistry between O'Brien and Bashir. In fact, this episode is a significant point for the two characters, and you'll come to appreciate that once you've viewed more of the show, particularly the season 3 episode Explorers.
I'm afraid that Charlie Brooker took the piss out of that show recently, and as a Charlie Brooker fan I am not allowed to enjoy Spartacus as I have to agree with everything he says.
I am allowed to watch the show and take the piss out of it though.That really depends on how long the penis was. Here's a minor spoiler about Whispers though:
There's no penis-slashing in it. In fact, none of the "torture O'Brien" episodes contained a penis-slashing.
But your name says Jimmy Bob. I'm so confused.
EDIT: Damn my slow typing!
Yeah, Whispers is a great episode, and it has a fantastic twist. Easily one of the best of the second season and one of the best "torture O'Brien" episodes (although Hard Time easily has it beat).
The accuracy of your description is just amazing. It's like you know me. I never had a person who knows me before.
Actually it's this song - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AWoZmAxKxg, but I guess this makes my situation even sadder.
And you think you have the right to tell us what makes good television?!
It's the only way I can pretend that I am somebody. That I have value. That my life makes a difference.
And I can pretend that I'm actually talking with people, socialising. Making funny jokes and being the centre of attention.
"You rock Billy Frankenstein, you rock!"
Instead of just sitting in my corner and having a great make-believe with imaginary people.
But your name says Jimmy Bob. I'm so confused.
It's like in Whispers. I might be O'Brien but I am not. I'm Billy Frankenstein. A new person, just in another persons body.
I just retconned myself.
It's like you know me.
I've known had anybody that knew me before.Please don't leave me for a fat, bearded 26 year-old virgin!
Paradise
Funny thing happened. When O'Brien and Sisko were wandering in that forest, I was wondering if that forest was where they filmed Q-Pid. And then I wondered how misleading it is in general to film european medieval stuff in californian forests and thought to myself that how many films have been shot in those forests... and then suddenly there was a guy with a bow and arrow there. I was thinking of Robin Hood and there was a Robin Hood. Weird. It's almost like Anthony Robbins is right about what you think is what you get. But I digress.
What is it about smiling and seemingly happy people that creeps us out? Why does a life of nine to five of grey, doing sensless things, a life of sleep deprivation and overdose of coffee, a life lacking in genuine social experience and where the greatest moments are spent trolling in internetz seems so much more normal than this?
Is it because that this kind of community-orientedness has been ridiculed in our media for a long time now? That when we see smiling "happy" people we already expect something wrong and unnatural going on?
Is it somekinda cultural superiority from our individualistic society? Like back in the old days of westerns, where self-made free men were to be looked up to, and all those weird mexicans and natives with their community-oriented morality were strange?
And haven't been those "weird southerners" also been portrayed as strangely community-oriented? Families this and families that?
Do I have a point that I'm trying to make?
No.
I wasn't trying to imply at all that there has been an anti-community conspiracy in american nation-building ever since the victory over the south and spreading urbanisation and assimilation all those weird irish and cultures of color; and which has thanks to the mcdonaldisation of the world become a natural part of the psyche of everyone who believes him or herself to be part of this first world (the so-called western civilization).
I was just merely wondering. I'm definitely seeing some patterns here that go back to the reformation, but everything is all fuzzy for me to dare to analyze any sense into this...
Okay, let's take me and my world. Ever seen scandinavian films. The ones that start with this fat guy wearing glasses sitting on a bench in park and eating peanuts. And everyone is having a great time while he sits there alone with his peanuts. Then there's a scene in the workplace where he is in his box and watching porn. And he's jerking off. And then he goes home. Shits. Then he goes to a club and is sitting alone with his drink. A girl sits beside him.And the girl asks something and the guy smiles but it turns out that the girl was just talking with a sexy mediterrenian guy standing behind him, and it's all very embarassing but fortunately no one notices. Then he rides a bike. And then he goes home. Makes a nasty comment in the internet about some celebrity. And then sits on a toilet and shits. And then shots his brains out. And this music starts playing - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRZLxxR23K4 , while the next half hour of the film is just about his body decomposing.
Well that's normal in my world. That's me. And yet I feel like I'm better than those creepy community people. I feel like I am more free. Weird huh? Where does it come from?
Of course I am an individualist. But is this my culture shaping me or my "keen intellect cutting through collective bullshit that tries to enslave me"?
True. Strong communities tend to be just brainwashing cults and sects in my world. And they don't have to be even religious in nature. Even Rational and Sensible Atheist Clubs of Reasonable and Open-Minded Skeptics can be very brainwashing and controlling in nature, especially when they have a strong leader figure.
But I would like to think that communities aren't evil and personal liberty killing per se... just that in real life and movies they tend to be creepy.
As a tale of two rational people, who see through the collective bullshit and resist submitting to philosophical delusions of a crazy overtly-controlling woman, it was quite empowering.
I was all "fuck yeah!" when Sisko went back into that box. Now that shows character. And he still had that uniform, and it really looked like it was a real pain to be sweaty in that thing. Speaking of which, when do I get to see those new uniforms. I don't really like these Voyager uniforms.
I liked this episode. It felt a little bit confused about itself too, trying to balance between traditional negative portrayal of creepy communities and "what if this ain't really that bad" positive portrayal. So it was as confused as me about the whole thing. But it's a subject that really interests me.
And I really loved how those people chose to remain behind. Sure the bitch was crazy, but they have something unique going on there. Something they will lose if they assimilate themselves back into normal federation lifestyle.
Funny thing happened. When O'Brien and Sisko were wandering in that forest, I was wondering if that forest was where they filmed Q-Pid. And then I wondered how misleading it is in general to film european medieval stuff in californian forests and thought to myself that how many films have been shot in those forests... and then suddenly there was a guy with a bow and arrow there. I was thinking of Robin Hood and there was a Robin Hood. Weird. It's almost like Anthony Robbins is right about what you think is what you get. But I digress.
What is it about smiling and seemingly happy people that creeps us out? Why does a life of nine to five of grey, doing sensless things, a life of sleep deprivation and overdose of coffee, a life lacking in genuine social experience and where the greatest moments are spent trolling in internetz seems so much more normal than this?
Is it because that this kind of community-orientedness has been ridiculed in our media for a long time now? That when we see smiling "happy" people we already expect something wrong and unnatural going on?
Is it somekinda cultural superiority from our individualistic society? Like back in the old days of westerns, where self-made free men were to be looked up to, and all those weird mexicans and natives with their community-oriented morality were strange?
And haven't been those "weird southerners" also been portrayed as strangely community-oriented? Families this and families that?
Do I have a point that I'm trying to make?
No.
I wasn't trying to imply at all that there has been an anti-community conspiracy in american nation-building ever since the victory over the south and spreading urbanisation and assimilation all those weird irish and cultures of color; and which has thanks to the mcdonaldisation of the world become a natural part of the psyche of everyone who believes him or herself to be part of this first world (the so-called western civilization).
I was just merely wondering. I'm definitely seeing some patterns here that go back to the reformation, but everything is all fuzzy for me to dare to analyze any sense into this...
Okay, let's take me and my world. Ever seen scandinavian films. The ones that start with this fat guy wearing glasses sitting on a bench in park and eating peanuts. And everyone is having a great time while he sits there alone with his peanuts. Then there's a scene in the workplace where he is in his box and watching porn. And he's jerking off. And then he goes home. Shits. Then he goes to a club and is sitting alone with his drink. A girl sits beside him.And the girl asks something and the guy smiles but it turns out that the girl was just talking with a sexy mediterrenian guy standing behind him, and it's all very embarassing but fortunately no one notices. Then he rides a bike. And then he goes home. Makes a nasty comment in the internet about some celebrity. And then sits on a toilet and shits. And then shots his brains out. And this music starts playing - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRZLxxR23K4 , while the next half hour of the film is just about his body decomposing.
Well that's normal in my world. That's me. And yet I feel like I'm better than those creepy community people. I feel like I am more free. Weird huh? Where does it come from?
Of course I am an individualist. But is this my culture shaping me or my "keen intellect cutting through collective bullshit that tries to enslave me"?
True. Strong communities tend to be just brainwashing cults and sects in my world. And they don't have to be even religious in nature. Even Rational and Sensible Atheist Clubs of Reasonable and Open-Minded Skeptics can be very brainwashing and controlling in nature, especially when they have a strong leader figure.
But I would like to think that communities aren't evil and personal liberty killing per se... just that in real life and movies they tend to be creepy.
As a tale of two rational people, who see through the collective bullshit and resist submitting to philosophical delusions of a crazy overtly-controlling woman, it was quite empowering.
I was all "fuck yeah!" when Sisko went back into that box. Now that shows character. And he still had that uniform, and it really looked like it was a real pain to be sweaty in that thing. Speaking of which, when do I get to see those new uniforms. I don't really like these Voyager uniforms.
I liked this episode. It felt a little bit confused about itself too, trying to balance between traditional negative portrayal of creepy communities and "what if this ain't really that bad" positive portrayal. So it was as confused as me about the whole thing. But it's a subject that really interests me.
And I really loved how those people chose to remain behind. Sure the bitch was crazy, but they have something unique going on there. Something they will lose if they assimilate themselves back into normal federation lifestyle.
About three more years, I'm afraid.
Anyway, Paradise is perhaps more like TNG than DS9, but I really like it. When I re-watched DS9 on DVD, I found that Sisko having to go in that box was one of the things I remembered most vividly from when I first saw the show in the '90s and I was pleased that the episode still holds up really well. For my money this is one of DS9's best typically Trekky episodes.
Oh, and Whispers is one of DS9's best episodes
Armageddon Game - one of the last of the mediocre episodes, but obviously has its great Bashir/O'Brien moments. Get rid of the hair and it would be halfway decent.
Whispers- Brilliant, and pretty much the definitive O'Brien episode. That plot twist threw me (and pretty much everyone else) first time.
Paradise- Well, Alexis was a bitch, and that's all that really sticks in my mind when I think about this one. It had some good pointers, but well, Alexis was a bitch.
Whispers- Brilliant, and pretty much the definitive O'Brien episode. That plot twist threw me (and pretty much everyone else) first time.
Paradise- Well, Alexis was a bitch, and that's all that really sticks in my mind when I think about this one. It had some good pointers, but well, Alexis was a bitch.
This pretty much sums up how I feel about Armageddon Game. It's easily one of my least favourite episodes of DS9.
OK, you've got through this one, Rivals (AKA The One Where Nothing Happens if I remember correctly) and the rest of this dodgy streak, so I now predict that you'll finish the show!
These are the DS9 uniforms, Voyager just stole them and added a commbadge, the villainous scum!
The grey uniforms don't show up until the season 5 episode Rapture. According to Memory Alpha, they weren't allowed to use the new uniforms until after First Contact was released so as not to spoil the new movie, which makes absolutely no sense because a) we already saw the new uniforms in the trailer and b) they're bloody uniforms!
Anyway, the uniforms present a minor continuity hiccup that's a bit questionable, but I'll still be around once you finally get to season 5 (in three years time) to discuss it. Wont that be fun?
I have a really strong memory of it as well. I had absolutely no memory of the plot, but I remembered that scene and how impressed I was by Sisko getting into the box. It's probably the best thing Sisko has done since Emissary.
The episode's not half-bad either.
One of the great things about Whispers is that it has a great plot twist that blows you away, but the episode doesn't depend upon the twist. I've seen it 5 or 6 times now and I've loved it each time even though I knew that it wasn't the real O'Brien.
The story of the next episode will seem very familiar to you... because you have already seen it on ENT. Of course, it should be the other way round, since DS9 did it first and ENT 'borrowed' the story... 
But I remember that I definitely liked the story much better when it was done on DS9... I'm not sure how much of that was due to the fact that I saw the DS9 episode first, but I think it was also better done.
But I remember that I definitely liked the story much better when it was done on DS9... I'm not sure how much of that was due to the fact that I saw the DS9 episode first, but I think it was also better done.
Shadowplay
Anyway, Shadowplay is a nice episode. That thing with Odo changing himself for the girl ends it perfectly. It was just nice. Warm, fuzzy episode.
The changelings really seem to be an important part of folklore amongst gamma people. It seems like they are the "elves" of that world. Not elves like in modern fantasy, but like in old fairytales. The ones who steal your firstborn and eat it and plant their own instead.
They were in Gamma Quadrant? You know, I haven't actually payed to attention when they have been in Gamma Quadrant and when not. Was Paradise also in Gamma Quadrant? There isn't really anything gamma about Gamma Quadrant. Those planets could be anywhere.
Only in the first gamma episodes, when gamma was all about weird clothes like in Captive Pursuit, Move Along and Rules of Acquisition you had somekinda feel of gamma. That it was about weird clothes. But now I can't tell which side is gamma and which side is alpha.
Another Dominion mention. What's this the third time? I don't really remember the context of Dominion name dropping in Rules, but in that weird hair episode Dominion was a conqueror. And it's mentioned in context of conquest in this episode too.
So if I was a viewer back in 1994 that paid attention then I'd guess that Dominion is... the romulans or klingons of gamma?
But the name doesn't say anything. There's no dread. It's just a name. When do I get the sense of dread?
Oh and that creepy priest guy is still creepy. How did Quark know that Kira is into creepy? I mean, for a moment I thought he was quite okay, but then he was all mouth to mouth action with Kira and he was creepy and disturbing again.
It actually took me a while to remember Oasis. I had completely forgotten than episode. But I remember that Oasis wasn't done in this feel good way, but in a more eery disturbing way.
Anyway, Shadowplay is a nice episode. That thing with Odo changing himself for the girl ends it perfectly. It was just nice. Warm, fuzzy episode.
The changelings really seem to be an important part of folklore amongst gamma people. It seems like they are the "elves" of that world. Not elves like in modern fantasy, but like in old fairytales. The ones who steal your firstborn and eat it and plant their own instead.
They were in Gamma Quadrant? You know, I haven't actually payed to attention when they have been in Gamma Quadrant and when not. Was Paradise also in Gamma Quadrant? There isn't really anything gamma about Gamma Quadrant. Those planets could be anywhere.
Only in the first gamma episodes, when gamma was all about weird clothes like in Captive Pursuit, Move Along and Rules of Acquisition you had somekinda feel of gamma. That it was about weird clothes. But now I can't tell which side is gamma and which side is alpha.
Another Dominion mention. What's this the third time? I don't really remember the context of Dominion name dropping in Rules, but in that weird hair episode Dominion was a conqueror. And it's mentioned in context of conquest in this episode too.
So if I was a viewer back in 1994 that paid attention then I'd guess that Dominion is... the romulans or klingons of gamma?
But the name doesn't say anything. There's no dread. It's just a name. When do I get the sense of dread?
Oh and that creepy priest guy is still creepy. How did Quark know that Kira is into creepy? I mean, for a moment I thought he was quite okay, but then he was all mouth to mouth action with Kira and he was creepy and disturbing again.
I can't stand Bareil either (I presume he is the priest guy you are talking about). He is like a (barely) animated mannequin. He is by far one of the worst actors I've ever seen.
The Dominion will be very well developed for you when they are supposed to be, don't worry about that. When the characters learn about them, so will you, the viewer. You are supposed to get the sense of dread when the characters themselves also get the sense of dread.
The Dominion will be very well developed for you when they are supposed to be, don't worry about that.
When the characters learn about them, so will you, the viewer. You are supposed to get the sense of dread when the characters themselves also get the sense of dread.
Shadowplay is an enjoyable episode that has some nice character moments. It's not ground-breaking, but it's an interesting sci-fi story and gives Odo something new to do. Oasis was a very obvious rip-off of it, but didn't match the original's charm.
You couldn't be more wrong. Odo can't eat a baby, he can't eat anything, it's too "messy".
No, that was a group of humans in the Alpha Quadrant. The wormhole hadn't been discovered at the time that they crashed on that planet.
In a sense, that's one of the great failings of the show, they failed to keep the Gamma Quadrant distinct from the Alpha and Beta Quadrants (and Voyager often had the same problem with the Delta Quadrant). But that led to one of the series' great strengths; they wanted to give the Gamma Quadrant a personality in order to make it distinct from "known" space, so they decided to create the Dominion. The rest is galactic history.
Neither. The Dominion is something new, their political structure and their social identity are different from any of the major powers you know about. The truth is that at this point in the show the writers had a loose idea of what the Dominion were going to be, but nothing was set in stone, and the original concept was modified a bit to accommodate a new idea the writers came up with later. That's both good and bad, but mostly good.
The next time the Dominion come up there will be a very real sense of dread. That's all I'll say.
Jimmy Bob great reviews. I'm also watching DS9 from the start (now that I've got through TNG), and I'm trying to catch up with you, so far I'm on season 2 "The Alternate". I agree with almost everything you said in your comment about the show so far. After an episode I look at this thread to see your thoughts, and others comments without trying to scroll to far down and spoil the next episode.
I feel lucky in a way that it's all fresh to me and I never watched it when it was aired (I'm 30 so I'm not sure how i missed it?!).
I still think about 'Duet' - seriously this episode totally blew me away (In a very similar way to the TNG epidode "The Inner Light")
Please keep up the great mini reviews!
Something that occurred to me while watching "The Alternate" which bugs me. Bashir was attacked by the entity (we did not know it was Odo at this point). So he hits the com badge and says 'emergency'. so... who does that broadcast go to? everyone with com badge? I don't understand.
I feel lucky in a way that it's all fresh to me and I never watched it when it was aired (I'm 30 so I'm not sure how i missed it?!).
I still think about 'Duet' - seriously this episode totally blew me away (In a very similar way to the TNG epidode "The Inner Light")
Please keep up the great mini reviews!
Something that occurred to me while watching "The Alternate" which bugs me. Bashir was attacked by the entity (we did not know it was Odo at this point). So he hits the com badge and says 'emergency'. so... who does that broadcast go to? everyone with com badge? I don't understand.
Thanks. I will.
Yes? In other Trek shows combadges are just mobile phones connected with everyone, so I imagine it's the same in DS9.
Playing God
First thing I noticed was just how openly promiscuous Jadzia now is. It's not like it's out of place. It fits. But it also kinda happened over night.
You know, this philosophical science morality play just doesn't fit with DS9 at all. It feels wrong. You need a different sort of characters and a different sort of leading man to make it work. When Sisko was doing his great ethical narration, I just couldn't help but to roll my eyes.
Firstly, I don't know anything about Sisko. I don't know his moral code.
Secondly, you need a leading man whose all life is about stumbling into these philosophical science morality plays and then delivering great speeches of insight about the human nature - like Picard. This just felt so wrong for DS9. It's too down to earth to pull these "our universe will end in every week" plots off successfully.
But I think this episode did a great job in finally differentiating between Jadzia and Curazon. Because in season 1 they were the same. Of course, since now Jadzia takes knowingly a very hostile approach to being Curazon, it was kind of obvious that the writers were themselves trying to figure it with this episode.
So "I'm not Curazon!" is as good as it gets, and away does Jadzia go with a smile on her face.
But I can get some taste of who Jadzia is. She's this suddenly very promiscuous woman... but with daddy issues.
Because Curazon is her daddy. Hey, it's a progress from Curazon is her.
And that's why she's so sexual now. She's rebelling. Daddy's girl gone all bad. She's hanging out with the boys now.
Yeah.
Verdict: morality play was a failure, but Jadzia's backstory was much needed and very helpful in establishing her character and Trill society. Finally. After so much confusion.
First thing I noticed was just how openly promiscuous Jadzia now is. It's not like it's out of place. It fits. But it also kinda happened over night.
You know, this philosophical science morality play just doesn't fit with DS9 at all. It feels wrong. You need a different sort of characters and a different sort of leading man to make it work. When Sisko was doing his great ethical narration, I just couldn't help but to roll my eyes.
Firstly, I don't know anything about Sisko. I don't know his moral code.
Secondly, you need a leading man whose all life is about stumbling into these philosophical science morality plays and then delivering great speeches of insight about the human nature - like Picard. This just felt so wrong for DS9. It's too down to earth to pull these "our universe will end in every week" plots off successfully.
But I think this episode did a great job in finally differentiating between Jadzia and Curazon. Because in season 1 they were the same. Of course, since now Jadzia takes knowingly a very hostile approach to being Curazon, it was kind of obvious that the writers were themselves trying to figure it with this episode.
So "I'm not Curazon!" is as good as it gets, and away does Jadzia go with a smile on her face.
But I can get some taste of who Jadzia is. She's this suddenly very promiscuous woman... but with daddy issues.
Because Curazon is her daddy. Hey, it's a progress from Curazon is her.
And that's why she's so sexual now. She's rebelling. Daddy's girl gone all bad. She's hanging out with the boys now.
Yeah.
Verdict: morality play was a failure, but Jadzia's backstory was much needed and very helpful in establishing her character and Trill society. Finally. After so much confusion.
Kudos to the writers for actually trying to show who Jadzia is, but unfortunately, I didn't enjoy this episode very much. And how could another universe exist inside our universe??
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