• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

First-Timer's Impressions of Deep Space Nine

Status
Not open for further replies.
I don't even remember the A-plot of that episode, but I remember the Jadzia plot, and particularly that this was the ep where they first mentioned that Curzon wanted to kick her out of the symbiont program. You'll finally find out why late in season 3 in a very interesting Dax episode.

You're now at the end of the middle part of season 2 that suffered from too many standalones, too much focus on planets of the week, and a severe lack of Cardassians ;) But this is going to change completely, starting with the next episode. The remaining season 2 episodes are all about universe-building, further exploring major DS9 races such as Cardassians and Bajorans, adding depth to a few great recurring characters, and introducing important new story arcs that will continue in the next seasons
 
Profit and Loss

This is the first DS9 episode where I just had to laugh and roll eyes at how stupid some of it was, especially the dialogue, and still in the end love it.

Quark's a bit out of character in this episode - he is too swashbuckling. And much of the dialogue was just cringeworthy. Sure, I get it. It was an homage to those old movies with leading men and leading women, but it just was cringeworthy in the context of DS9.

But I liked it. I guess I'm a sucker for these types of stories.

And from an actor's point of view, I also think it was a fun diversion for Armin Shimmerman, considering that he is typically type-casted into playing these annoying trolls and especially with his looks... how often can an actor looking like him get the chance to play the heroical lead in a romantical tale such as this?

Anyway, perhaps Armin hated it, but I had fun. I enjoyed seeing the heroic Quark who stood against the authority when selling food to bajorans under the cardassian rule and later when he tried to do everything to save the woman he loved.

And nice of Odo to have a rebelling bone in him. Justice instead of law.

About Garak though. He was the other OOC character in this episode. And sure, it turned out to be his master plan all along. But for a moment there, I really thought they had jumped the shark with him and I still can't quite shake that feeling off. Because that mystery surrounding him is what makes him so delicious. That was just too close.

About something completely different now.

Flip Kobler co-wrote the Star Trek: Deep Space Nine episode "Profit and Loss" with his wife Cindy Marcus. The couple have a son called Finn.
Marcus and Kobler have since written several sequels to Disney films, including Beauty and the Beast: The Enchanted Christmas, Pocahontas II: Journey to a New World, The Lion King II: Simba's Pride, Lady and the Tramp II: Scamp's Adventure and The Hunchback of Notre Dame II.

Anyone else noticing the similarities between those films and this episode? They really like doing those "man meets a woman, man does something heroic" type of stories, don't they?
 
Last edited:
DevilEyes said:
I don't even remember the A-plot of that episode, but I remember the Jadzia plot, and particularly that this was the ep where they first mentioned that Curzon wanted to kick her out of the symbiont program. You'll finally find out why late in season 3 in a very interesting Dax episode.

You're now at the end of the middle part of season 2 that suffered from too many standalones, too much focus on planets of the week, and a severe lack of Cardassians ;) But this is going to change completely, starting with the next episode. The remaining season 2 episodes are all about universe-building, further exploring major DS9 races such as Cardassians and Bajorans, adding depth to a few great recurring characters, and introducing important new story arcs that will continue in the next seasons
Click to expand...

Nice avatar.
 
I agree about Playing God, the "The Universe is Going to Explode!™" storyline doesn't work on DS9, it's just not that sort of show. Luckily they didn't do that sort of story again and settled on various "We're All Going to Die!™" storylines, which is what they were best at.

Jimmy Bob said:
But I think this episode did a great job in finally differentiating between Jadzia and Curazon.
Click to expand...
It may seem that way now, but if anything this episode actually served to make Jadzia more like Curzon than she had been in the first season. There's an episode next season where you'll get to meet Curzon, and he's not exactly the wise old Trill you might think he is, he's a drinker, a partier, and something of a womaniser. In fact, he died due to "strain" while having sex on Risa, if the juvenile Let He Who Is Without Sin is to be believed.

So, in season 1 what you were seeing was more of the base Jadzia, a studious and quiet young woman with a love of science, but by season 2 she had begun to assimilate aspects of the previous hosts into her own, and that's why she has shifted into being more outgoing and fun-loving.


Jimmy Bob said:
Profit and Loss
Click to expand...
I'm not sure how I feel about this episode. I know they were going for a homage to Casablanca, and it was supposed to be light-hearted and fun, but it has been such a long time since I've seen it that I can't remember how I felt about it. I guess I'll have to wait until I start my own superior review thread in a few months time. :shifty:

About Garak though. He was the other OOC character in this episode. And sure, it turned out to be his master plan all along. But for a moment there, I really thought they had jumped the shark with him and I still can't quite shake that feeling off. Because that mystery surrounding him is what makes him so delicious. That was just too close.
Click to expand...
Actually, Garak will tell the story of his exile in an episode coming up very soon, it's one of the series high-points.
 
Blood Oath

First I thought this was going to be an Odo episode. Was Jadzia then so unpopular that the writers felt that they had to trick me into a Jadzia episode?

"It's an Odo episode. There's no Jadzia here. You don't have to turn off your tv. Haha, gotcha! But you gotta watch this now because there be klingons here."

So now Jadzia wants to be Curzon again. She's a confused one, eh? But this time there was a certain layer or element that I found very interesting.

Usually Sisko has been all Jadzia is Curzon. In fact, in season 1 episode "Dax on Trial" he invented a story about each Dax being a new person, but you could see it that he himself did not believe it all.

But now he's all patronising, pulling age and wisdom on Jadzia's ass. And ditto Kira.

Because Jadzia was very young in this episode. She wasn't this promiscuous worldly experience of a hundred lifetimes, superior over Bashir, sleeping with goofy-looking muscle guys who are supposedly just their "training partners" know it all like she is.

She was very young, not young like a 28 year old woman, but like a 16 year old reading Camus young.

Oh she was all "promiscuous worldly... hell, I'm not going to type this again" with the klingons, but this episode treated it like a mask, when an immature person tries to be more mature than she is.

When she asked that question from Kira... it's like all her maturity broke down to reveal the scared young girl within.

And then that look in the end. That "I guess, losing one's innocense isn't as fun as I thought" look.

Because this tale is about losing ones innocense. It's an obvious allegory for first sexual experiences, of trying to be more mature by trying to lose your virginity but ending up feeling empty inside instead.

So in fact it's a propaganda for No Sex Before Marriage movement.

And I applaud this episode for taking a stand for conservative christian family values, because in this world where the media encourages our younglings yo be whores and sluts, metro's and ladyboys, it's a rare thing for a tv show to say that don't go wasting yourself because of peer pressure. God will give you the greatest fuck of your life in the right time with the right person.

I bet that really mindfucked you. That's because you just read a review by Billy Frankenstein. He doesn't just review, he... I got nothing.

I don't actually like this 24th century fetish with the klingons. It's like the weaboism of that world. Back in february I wrote: "Aliens part of Federation are not given much thought. No one romanticises those. They're us, so why should we overtly respect them. But aliens outside of Federation are respected, admired, loved. So really, in TNG if an alien culture wants to have human respect, it needs to be strong enough to decline from being part of Federation."

That's the only reason why everyone has an hard-on for klingons. Because they're strong enough not to assimilate like all those other "weaklings".

I can already imagine Riker with that smug smile of his saying, "Klingons fart with honor," and then fart. And then Beverly and D'Eanna are all laughing, and Data is just confused.

But sometimes, they really hit the jackspot with klingons. I know these old klingons are supposed to be those klingons from TOS. But, I never really noticed them in TOS. But now, these old sad klingons really touched something in me. I was deeply moved by the performance of these actors.

Has anyone else had the desire, when guest actors are particularly memorable, to go check up the other stuff they have done? Has anyone done it with these actors? All they got is guest appearances in tv shows, so I wouldn't know which one is awesome like in this episode or which one is random face with a line like in CSI.

So yeah, great episode.
 
TheGodBen said:
Jimmy Bob said:
But I think this episode did a great job in finally differentiating between Jadzia and Curazon.
Click to expand...
It may seem that way now, but if anything this episode actually served to make Jadzia more like Curzon than she had been in the first season. There's an episode next season where you'll get to meet Curzon, and he's not exactly the wise old Trill you might think he is, he's a drinker, a partier, and something of a womaniser. In fact, he died due to "strain" while having sex on Risa, if the juvenile Let He Who Is Without Sin is to be believed.

So, in season 1 what you were seeing was more of the base Jadzia, a studious and quiet young woman with a love of science, but by season 2 she had begun to assimilate aspects of the previous hosts into her own, and that's why she has shifted into being more outgoing and fun-loving.
Click to expand...
Still, judging by the image we get of Curzon from that later episode, he was far more flamboyant and promiscuous than Jadzia Dax ever was. If Jadzia of season 1 was more like the unjoined Jadzia, then Jadzia Dax of the later seasons was more like a milder version of Curzon Dax, tempered by "base Jadzia" (unjoined Jadzia) personality. We could fanwank that she was having problems incorporating Curzon's personality due to her conflicted feelings about him because of the way he had treated her, and that she later resolved this conflict and incorporated his personality completely into hers.

It's a pity that we didn't get to see more of the unjoined Jadzia, so we could compare her personality and see what she was without the influence of Dax or any of the previous hosts' personalities. It would also be interesting to learn what Curzon was like before joining with Dax. My guess is that the wise old soul part comes from Dax, while the flamboyance, love for gambling and sports, promiscuity, and an affinity for Klingons was all Curzon, since none of the previous hosts seemed to have showed any of these traits.
 
Blood Oath is one of my favorite season 2 episodes, it's just such a fun adventure, and has a spectacular end battle. I'm also a sucker for TOS characters on the newer shows.
 
Jimmy Bob said:
God will give you the greatest fuck of your life in the right time with the right person.
Click to expand...
Ah yes, I remember when God first entered me and filled me with his pure white love.

Billy Frankenstein started it! :whistle:

I don't actually like this 24th century fetish with the klingons.
Click to expand...
Don't worry, Klingons wont play a major role on DS9. :shifty:


Blood Oath is good, but I imagine I'll enjoy it more the next time I watch it because I've seen TOS now and know who Kang, Kor and Koloth are.
 
Jimmy Bob said:
Past Prologue (0)

Dreadful, just dreadful. You know, I just figured out what is wrong with this show. No Neelix! That's right, there's a serious lack of Neelix.

I'm a very well-known and respected Neelix slash-fic writer, so I know what I'm talking about. In fact, in iloveneelixbbs.com forums I'm somewhat of a king. I own, completely. But I don't want to talk about myself, just if you ever drop by, just mention my name to get yourself leaded to some fine "You like some Kes, huh?" material. Work of art.

I also love this cheesy 70's synth tune that is playing in my head. Now it turned into a Barry White song.

Now, lack of Neelix is a serious prblem with other Trek shows too, so don't feel too bad about it. In fact, I actually have a humanitarian aid project called Saved by Neelix, in where I take classic Trek episodes and edit Neelix into them. My The City On The Edge Of Forever Neelix Edition was just mind-blowing success. True work of art. I'm an artist.

So with a trained eye like I have, I'm sorry to say that there is no Neelix in this episode. Sorry DS9 fans, but facts are facts. No Neelix=no stars.




















Past Prologue

I really hope that you people scroll down. Otherwise I just headed us into a serious case of misunderstanding each other in a very awkward way. :eek: Anyway.

Kira changed her hair. :( I liked her Emissary hair.

I was a bit dissapointed by this episode. What fascinated me the most about Emissary, was that it had a certain mystical... or mythological undertones... yeah, I'm just throwing words around with no idea what they mean.

But there was a certain mythical dimension to Emissary. And I was hoping to get more of that vibe, but instead I got some tv IRA fable, that was just so popular in the 90's. So that brought no excitement - of course the cast member will come to see her former comrade's ways in a bad light.

I appreciate that this series has taken a more honest approach towards Federation... portraying it as just one of many galaxy's expansionist powers. I can understand the bajoran concerns. Because Federation is ridiculously human-centric, with it's leaders constantly portraying corporeal traits as human alone to some non-corporeal beings. And it's basically assimiliating the weaker alien cultures.

So I'm digging this political situation very much... with it's unstable governments, ethnic tension and geopolitical stand-off between two expansionist powers. But this sort of tired story doesn't really inspire the mind. Then again, perhaps this wasn't that tired in 1993.

What I liked? I liked the glimpses into the everyday life of the station. Garak. And Bashir. Perhaps my dislike at first sight with Bashir happened because I was involved in a very heavy love-fest with Kira, and since he managed to piss her off with his "frontier" comment, he also pissed me off. Garak is also amazingly individual being. Worthy of mention, because aliens tend to be portrayed in a too collectivical manner.

I'm not sure that's even a word. Hey, and Admiral Forrest had a cameo. :p
Click to expand...

When I first saw Past Prologue I thought it may have been the best of the series' 2nd episodes(now I am sure of it..its the best 2nd ep of any ST series that came after too)...we get to see Kira having to immediately deal with her past...one of the best things about the series. Its a great episode! I'm surprised you didn't like it.

Someone mentioned they didn't like "Valiant" in this thread???? Really?? Thought it was a great episode, and interesting exploration of a specially created "gung ho" group of cadets in a pre-existing climate of conflict.

RAMA
 
Blood Oath - nice episode, probably the best Klingon episode to come out of DS9.

No more bad episodes now, until at least next season.
 
RAMA said:
When I first saw Past Prologue I thought it may have been the best of the series' 2nd episodes(now I am sure of it..its the best 2nd ep of any ST series that came after too)...we get to see Kira having to immediately deal with her past...one of the best things about the series. Its a great episode! I'm surprised you didn't like it.

RAMA
Click to expand...

What really captured my imagination with Emissary was all the mystical stuff. So I was hoping to see more of that. Remember these are first-timer impressions, which are influenced by things like expectations and ignorance of what the rest of the series is like. I don't see the big picture yet.

By now, I'm getting a feeling that they pretty much did away with the mystical stuff. I'd like to see more of that, because imo DS9 is not growing into it's premise.

It does something else completely.
 
The Maquis

So this is how the Maquis were born. Funny, I expected something different. Preemptive Strike and Voyager leave a different impression... a confusing one, but different. I was hoping something that would be a wish-fulfillment for my secret libertarian terrorist dreams.

But they're just farmers who had a fight with other farmers. A provincial fight amongst neighbours.

This was surprisingly sensible. This two-parter acted out like somekind of a sociological analysis on frontier conflicts.

I really felt while watching this, that I was reading some text discussing common social phenomenons in situations like this.

Border changes, a part of terran ethnicity remains now on the cardassian side. Big governments are okay, but locals can't stand each other.

Probably the dominant ethnicity initiates the conflict, even if it's just "go home, immigrant scum" verbal kind. Tensions rise.

The left behind feel the need to protect themselves. And then do the cardassian neighbours. So they have gunfights.

The dominant ethnicity finds support in some members of the central government. "Because it's their land and they don't want those stinking immigrants here."

And then the left behind blow up something that gets a wider attention and bam, both governments involved.

I liked how Kira immediately sympathized with the Maquis - they're freedom fighters like her.

And Sisko. If it was Janeway then Cal Hudson would be dead by now. For a moment I feared that Sisko was going to be one of those Starfleet or Death type of guys, because he had some personal hesitation moment and he kept wanting to give Cal back his uniform.

Usually it means certain death for the separatist guy in Trek.

But Sisko let Cal go.

"The problem is Earth. On Earth, there is no poverty, no crime, no war. You look out the window of Starfleet Headquarters and you see Paradise. Well, it's easy to be a saint in Paradise, but the Maquis do not live in Paradise. Out there in the demilitarized zone, all the problems haven't been solved yet. Out there, there are no saints — just people. Angry, scared, determined people who are going to do whatever it takes to survive, whether it meets with Federation approval or not!" - Sisko

His words are music to my ears. He's okay in my book now. He's not the true believer, but a person with a mind of his own.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

B
When exactly did Jadzia Dax reject Julian Bashir (since her first words to him here definitely not rejection)? Also, first interaction between Bashir
2 3 4
Replies
60
Views
2K
kkt
K
SurfingtheInterweb
Julian in "Nor the Battle to the Strong"
Replies
8
Views
283
Oddish
Oddish
D
Should I watch What We Left Behind docu before or after DS9 re-watch?
Replies
16
Views
970
PlainSimpleJoel
PlainSimpleJoel
3
Sisko’s Father
2
Replies
25
Views
995
Guy Gardener
Guy Gardener
Admiral Jean-Luc Picard
  • Poll
Broadcast vs production, does episode order matter?
5 6 7
Replies
124
Views
7K
Shawnster
Shawnster
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top