First-Timer's Impressions of Deep Space Nine

[JamesKerwin]

Here are the rules that those users broke:

ADULT CONTENT: "In order to protect those posters who are minors, you cannot post NC-17 or R-Rated material anywhere on the BBS..."

It isn't a "stretch" to say that discussion of Chase "sitting on someone's face" for sexual pleasure would be considered R-rated. I believe it would be considered so by many, if not most, people.

FLAMES: "Obviously, you cannot insult other people."

It sure seemed to Chase and I that the comments made by a couple users specifically broke this rule, because they were quite obviously intended as insults (not sure how one could reasonably argue that specific negative comments about one's appearance are not "insults"). Saying "I don't really find T'Bonz attractive," is one thing. Saying "T'Bonz is looking bad these days... hasn't aged well... looking haggard..." is an insult.

Seems to us that you're saying we "cannot have it both ways," and that if people are allowed to post complimentary things, they're also going to post insulting things. But your rules expressly forbid this, for good reason. So yes -- Chase, and any other user of this board, can certainly have it "both ways." People are allowed to be nice, obviously, but if they insult another member, they get censured. It says so in your own rules.

I'm really not sure how that is confusing, or open to interpretation. Maybe we're just really out of touch, and unprovoked nasty comments made by people today are no longer classified as "insults," perhaps. If that's the case, then that's really too bad.

 

[T'Bonz]

Here are the rules that those users broke:

ADULT CONTENT: "In order to protect those posters who are minors, you cannot post NC-17 or R-Rated material anywhere on the BBS..."

It isn't a "stretch" to say that discussion of Chase "sitting on someone's face" for sexual pleasure would be considered R-rated. I believe it would be considered so by many, if not most, people.

FLAMES: "Obviously, you cannot insult other people."

It sure seemed to Chase and I that the comments made by a couple users specifically broke this rule, because they were quite obviously intended as insults (not sure how one could reasonably argue that specific negative comments about one's appearance are not "insults"). Saying "I don't really find T'Bonz attractive," is one thing. Saying "T'Bonz is looking bad these days... hasn't aged well... looking haggard..." is an insult.

Seems to us that you're saying we "cannot have it both ways," and that if people are allowed to post complimentary things, they're also going to post insulting things. But your rules expressly forbid this, for good reason. So yes -- Chase, and any other user of this board, can certainly have it "both ways." People are allowed to be nice, obviously, but if they insult another member, they get censured. It says so in your own rules.

I'm really not sure how that is confusing, or open to interpretation. Maybe we're just really out of touch, and unprovoked nasty comments made by people today are no longer classified as "insults," perhaps. If that's the case, then that's really too bad.

By the very nature of a "hot or not" thread, if one wants such a thread, the implication is that if someone is deemed "not hot," then there will be those types of comments. Any negative comment about someone can be taken as an insult by the person who is the object of the thread.

Yet how do you then state what you perceive as truth, if someone is "not hot." To use the example, if someone has not aged well, even saying "so-and-so hasn't aged well" which is about as a neutral as one can say it, can be taken as an insult. By that logic NO negative statements can be said in a "hot or not" thread, and by disallowing anything that may offend the object of the thread - you've effectively turned it into a "OK, here are the images, you may only say complimentary things, or risk the chance of being accused of flaming."

Flaming is basically name-calling. "So and so is an asshole," stuff like that. Getting personal in an ugly way.

I don't see any way of having a "hot or not" thread without the chance of someone saying something uncomplimentary (again, not counting the comment that started all of this.) which then can be taken as flaming.

Saying someone looks haggard, while not what one wants to hear, isn't (to me at least) a flame.

 

[JamesKerwin]

Again, you're conflating things I'm saying with things that others must've said. There is no place on this board for a "hot or not" thread about another member. That was not a "hot or not" thread. it was a thread that was set up specifically to compliment Chase. No one asked "hot or not" -- that would be inappropriate to do about another member, absolutely. And your basic premise -- that the mere existence of a "hot" thread means that it will automatically turn into a "hot or not" thread -- is one I completely reject because there is simply no empirical basis for such a claim. If it starts to go sour, all you have to do is censure those members. Very, very simple.

But if you're now saying that you don't consider those posts to be "flames," then that is really too bad. If insults can be thrown at other users unprovoked, and then "technically" not classified as "insults," then I think it best for Chase and I to move on from here. If we want to hear people snark at us, trust me, we can go a LOT of places for that. My work is assauted on Netflix every day, as is Chase, and many other places. There're a lot of wounded people online, and they like to express it by wounding others whom they don't even know and who haven't done anything to them. Like I said, comes with the territory; we can't take it too too seriously. But we thought these boards had a rule against that, which is why we read them frequently (don't post much, but read a lot). If that's not the case, and if snark is now starting to be permitted as long as it's not TOO bad, then I fear TrekBBS will become just another mean-spirited board that professionals will stop visiting.

 

[T'Bonz]

I stand corrected on the hot or not thing. My fault, not anyone else's. I didn't have the original thread open.

However, especially given the Internet, I think it's unrealistic to post a thread about someone being hot without having people dissent. The purpose of a discussion board is discussion. Discussion includes having differing opinions. If not, it's not really discussion.

That doesn't, of course, mean that people can say stuff like that one poster said. I do NOT like that one of my posters was made to feel uncomfortable and I'm pretty pissed that someone said something so nasty.

As for the rest, I have asked my admins to read through this and to give me their opinion on my actions regarding the original comment. If they deem that I acted in error, I will correct that publicly. If not, their reasoning will be explained clearly.

I don't think that the other comments were meant as flames, truly. As I said, I see how they can be taken as insults (no one wants to hear uncomplimentary stuff) but we come back to the "are only compliments permitted when a picture is posted?" No one wants over-the-top comments, but if there is no discussion allowed other than "great picture," it's really not discussion and this is really a discussion board. Negative sentiments (expressed appropriately, and I suspect this is an area of disagreement between us) has to be allowed, at least from what I see, or it's NOT a discussion board.

We work hard to try to keep TrekBBS from being a nasty place. No one but trolls and their audiences likes a mean-spirited place.

I don't want anyone to leave or to be unhappy, whether they're in the industry or not. I consider you all to be "my posters" and want everyone, as much as is possible, to be happy here.

Given it's the 'net, I'm not sure how realistic that desire is, but we do strive to make it a nice place.

 

[InklingStar]

Is there any reason not to spin off the last two pages into its own (closed) thread somewhere? I've been enjoying this thread for nearly six months now - reliving a great TV show through the eyes of a new user. That's why we're here, I should hope.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

With that first debacle and locked would be my personal preference--but I don't make decisions here (and God knows I wouldn't want the job).

 

[JRS]

Chase and I have asked for one, and only one, thing. That the rules of this board -- which prevent people from flaming other members or making blatant sexual comments about them (not cleavage, but stuff like "I want her to sit on my face," discussion of her genitalia, etc.) -- apply to us equally. That's all. No more, no less.

I have to say, that I feel responsible of those bad comments made about Chase in the other thread
I feel that with posting those Chase-US flag pics, I must have somehow, unwantedly, excited others to make such comments. I though long time, if to post those particular pics..and it seems I made a wrong call there
I am sorry
Here is the apology I posted sometime ago to TBontz..and I though to sharind a slightly edited version of it here would be a good idea:

Hi there
I just wanted to say, that Im sorry if the photos I posted to the Chase Masterson thread, where somehow offending..to the forum or to Chase.
Would you convey my apologies to her, if I offended her with my post
I was posting them from admiration..not to offend.
I admire her a lot..and I think shes talented, smart, beautiful, ..and has given lot to us Trekkies over the years.
So, I feel bad If I offended her
Thats all..Thank you.
Sincerely,
-Jari

 

[flemm]

Hi there
I just wanted to say, that Im sorry if the photos I posted to the Chase Masterson thread, where somehow offending..to the forum or to Chase.
Would you convey my apologies to her, if I offended her with my post
I was posting them from admiration..not to offend.
I admire her a lot..and I think shes talented, smart, beautiful, ..and has given lot to us Trekkies over the years.
So, I feel bad If I offended her
Thats all..Thank you.
Sincerely,
-Jari

I'm starting to feel the love. This thread needs more repentance. To keep the ball rolling, I will confess that, though I don't believe I ever actually articulated anything insulting, I may possibly have had a few unworthy thoughts. For that I apologize and beg forgiveness.

As penance I will restrict myself to a diet of bran flakes and not look at any sexy pictures of any kind for at least a week.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

I must say, the amount of servility displayed by many members of this board is both shocking and disappointing.
Especially considering that most of them did nothing they were not entitled to. That this is a discussion board where contrary opinions (even opinions one doesn't agree with) are and, indeed, must be allowed.
I guess some people just enjoy begging for forgiveness.


Also - it would be a good ideea to move the last two pages to another thread and return this one to being the popular DS9 review thread it used to be.

 

[flemm]

I must say, the amount of servility displayed by many members of this board is both shocking and disappointing.
Especially considering that most of them did nothing they were not entitled to. That this is a discussion board where contrary opinions (even opinions one doesn't agree with) are and, indeed, must be allowed.
I guess some people just enjoy begging for forgiveness.

If you don't like bran flakes, I'm sure a liquid diet or simple fast would be more than adequate

 

[Lateralus]

Nicht gute...

So, yeah... back to that Star Trek stuff. Deep Space Nine sure is awesome, huh guys? I like Garak. And the Defiant!

 

[ChaseMasterson]

Yes, please. Back to DS9.

I truly hope that this is the very last comment on the subject; because it really is time to move on from this whole thing, I am hesitant to make it at all, but I think I should weigh in for those who want to read my 2 cents, once and for all (I have been traveling to and from a con in Vancouver, or I would have said something before now.)

For the record, I never intended this discussion to reach these levels. Neither James nor I ever asked for me to receive any special treatment, only to be able to read these boards without being subjected to disparaging remarks, just like anyone else.

Jari, thank you, but no apology is necessary -- I appreciate the spirit in which you posted the pictures. Also, for the record, the only thing I had a problem with last week was people _insulting_ me and saying they wanted to do some extremely vulgar stuff.

Still my 2 cents: Demeaning comments -- to or about anyone in a public forum such as this -- are unnecessary and mean and should be against the rules. It is entirely reasonable for people to be able to, and expected to, delineate the difference between degrading remarks and respectful appreciation; there is no reason that there should have to be a blanket rule against talking about anyone's appearance (altho' I personally agree that there are about a billion more interesting things to discuss.)

Finally, it is unconscionable and inexcusable to take part in lewd conversation. Those who made sexually explicit comments should never be allowed back on this board again.

Do unto others, guys.

Thanks, everybody. Now, please let's get back to the topic of the show.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Will do, Chase.

And now for a TOTAL change in tone...

-Shakespeare! I hate this lovefest that Trek has with Shakespeare. Why is Shakespeare THE HUMAN WRITER! Why not Tolstoy, Dostoyevski, any of the french writers or Goethe for crissakes. Why is Shakespeare more important than Goethe? Are the writers really Shakespeare fans or is it just some sort of group thinking? Whatever it is, it's disgustingly anglo-centric. I hate it.

I hate it, too. And I actually love Shakespeare, but geez guys, don't you know that there are other great writers? Including those who didn't write in English?

NerysGhemor makes a good point that Dostoyevski would probably be more suitable if you want to introduce Human literature to a Cardassian. "Crime and Punishment" seems like something a Cardassian might appreciate while OTOH it provides a link between the two cultures: we know from the start that the main character is guilty, it's all about the guilty person coming to finally confess to the crime and accept the punishment; while on the other hand the Human idea of redemption is at the heart of the novel, which would probably be something new to Garak as Cardassian culture doesn't seem to know about it.

While I actually happen to really like Shakespeare myself, I agree that he's overused in Trek. (It worked with Chang, though with Picard I think Victor Hugo might have been more appropriate.) And in THIS case, where the culture is so different, I definitely think it wasn't the right choice. And I totally missed this earlier--thanks for remembering my idea!

And I would also add that even with redemption of the soul, Raskolnikov STILL must be punished for his crime. That makes it even more Cardassian-like, given the modern-day mentality (and by extension the Federation mentality) that it's OK to get off easy just because you said you're sorry, and that redemption and justice are the same thing. (Because to Dostoyevsky, they are not, and he is one of the few authors I have found who shares my exact view on the subject.)

I'm sure that a hardline Cardassian like Garak would still criticize Crime and Punishment, but it might at least provide some insight. (I think a Cardassian dissident, however, would feel like reading that book was like looking into a mirror on his own world. I can see Tekeny Ghemor being a BIG fan.)

 

[InklingStar]

I love awesome dialogue between characters. Whether it is a conversation by Tarantino or by Shakespeare (ahem), I get excited when I see two characters sparring as if they were masters of the verbal rapier. I wish I could have such conversations in my everyday life.

This is why I love Improbable Cause so much. It was such a great idea to put Odo and Garak together. Every syllable of their dialogue together contains so much more than the sum of its parts. Garak is like the proverbial ogre, er onion, with so many layers surrounding his true thoughts and ideas. Odo pierces these layers like a skilled surgeon. The ingenuity of Garak's plan to evade assassination is matched only by Odo's realization of that plan.

In a way I like the first part better than the second. They are both good, don't get me wrong. But there is something about the anticipation that exceeds the denouement. From a simple explosion, the plot thickens, and just like a camera that starts focused on a tiny image then pulls back to reveal the full mosaic, we are drawn with Odo and Garak into events of galactic importance. The Romulan intelligence, the Obsidian Order fleet, and Garak's own... mentor Tain, all these things mix into an excellent climax.

To find at the end of the second part that it was all a plot by the Founders, well here is when one really starts to feel some dread. The Tal Shiar was so hyped in TNG as a KGB on steroids, and the Obsidian Order was supposed to be even better. For both of them to be fooled so well by the Founders is just insane. When the dust clears, you have to wonder what hope the Federation has. And that is why these episodes rock.

Spoiler: Dread

"You're too late. We are everywhere!"

 

[Lateralus]

In a way I like the first part better than the second. They are both good, don't get me wrong. But there is something about the anticipation that exceeds the denouement. From a simple explosion, the plot thickens, and just like a camera that starts focused on a tiny image then pulls back to reveal the full mosaic, we are drawn with Odo and Garak into events of galactic importance. The Romulan intelligence, the Obsidian Order fleet, and Garak's own... mentor Tain, all these things mix into an excellent climax.

Agreed. I rarely find the payoff to a buildup to be as important as a good buildup.

Probably why Babylon 5's 2nd season is my favorite.

 

[Pemmer Harge]

In a way I like the first part better than the second. They are both good, don't get me wrong. But there is something about the anticipation that exceeds the denouement.

I feel that way about quite a few of DS9's two-parters - In Purgatory's Shadow/By Inferno's Light, Favor the Bold/Sacrifice of Angels - often the build-up part of a story is better than the payoff. However, for me, Improbable Cause/The Die is Cast is a story that actually delivered on all its promises - probably because of the excellence of the big twist in the second part and just how well written the climax is. I think there's a case to be made that out of all DS9's big event episodes, this has the best writing, in terms of both dialogue and plotting.

 

[flemm]

I think there's a case to be made that out of all DS9's big event episodes, this has the best writing, in terms of both dialogue and plotting.

I certainly don't disagree that one could make that case, but I'm going to do some nitpicking here. Keep in mind that I love these episodes and would defend their honor against any who would deny their quality. Once that is established, however, a little nitpicking never did any harm

Nitpick #1: The "B-story" in The Die is Cast that gets Sisko and all the main characters except Odo and Garak involved is basically a Trek cliché and nothing more. Granted, the "Captain disobeys Admiral in the name of loyalty/honor/principle/whatever and gets off with a mild reprimand" trope is an enjoyable one, and perhaps a tad underexploited by TNG. Still, it's the very definition of predictable.

Nitpick #2: Can Odo and Garak really have been in any danger? Last I checked the Jem'Hadar don't kill Founders, and they had to know Odo was there, since the changeling infiltrator knew he was there. Thus it makes sense that the Jem'Hadar would let the Defiant escape, but not much sense that they were firing on the runabout to begin with.

In other words, there is a non sequitor in the final scene (as well-orchestrated as it is), that basically amounts to: "No changeling has ever harmed another, but the legions of Jem'Hadar at my command just might, so you better run."

I guess we have to fanwank that the Jem'Hadar were not immediately informed as to Odo's presence.

That's pretty much all I got in the way of nitpick

 

[Billy Stein]

It seems I was banned and I was in blissful ignorance of the whole thing until now. I wasn't joking when I said I'm no-internet rural zone and have to hike to a local wi-fi location to post these reviews.

To Chase and James: I apologize.

I thought you were somebody else – a random angry sad internet person posing as James and Chase, just to bait some other sad angry internet persons into hilarious defensive self-justifying rants. I glanced through that thread when it was in it's beginnings, didn't read properly and just found the sudden appearance of "Chase" and "his boyfriend" suspicious. A week later, I watched Explorers, recognized the actress and thought I had a fine material for pure comedy gold. Hence the references to Google. But it turns out that I did a ferengi episode instead.

Had I known you were indeed who you said you are, I would not have made that unfortunate random musing. It was not my intention to insult you, as I'm not out for that, especially with a thread in process.

I'm really sorry it turned out this way. It was not my intention to make fun of actual people, but just make fun of what I perceived the whole thing to be – people assuming false identities.

Now I'm probably adding fuel to the flame here, by registering a new user... but I had to say something to my defense. Because when I logged in it said that the ban will be never lifted.

If there had been an option to post as a guest, I would have used it. Or if there was, I didn't find any.

I would be very grateful if I was allowed to continue with this thread as Jimmy Bob. I'm not an intentional troll, just an accidental one.

Family Business

Ferengi episodes are better without the Grand Nagus. They just are.

Even though the ferengi society is such a gross over-exageration and parody of what progressive types see as wrong in modern western civilization. And it's kinda hard to swallow down a episode where the son can only be in comfort around his mother when she's naked. And where everyone just needs to bribe and buy each other to get anything done.

But already the lack of Grand Nagus works for the benefit of this episode. I can't really stand Grand Nagus. Now I've liked many episodes of questionable taste, and I think even some of Grand Nagus ones, but I don't like Nagus. He's too different from the main DS9 tone.

Now this episode too portrays a very ridiculous story, completely different in tone to the main epic DS9 storyline. But underneath it, there's a satisfying and feel good tale about a family pulling it together and having revelations about many perceptions that were real only in the mind of the perceiver. Like a mother not loving Quark. Or father being a brilliant businessman hindered by his wife.

I can recognize those things, having witnessed similar situations in my own family and extended kinsfolk. Everyone tends to feel less loved than they actually are in families. Or perhaps it depends on the family.

Anyway. I really liked the scene when Quark's mom tells him that unlike his father or brother, he's the most like her, especially in how he actually understands the ferengi rules of acquisition.

And I like how Rom has been developing a backbone in this season.

Is Kassidy Yates going to be recurring character? I'm afraid I don't find her interesting enough for my Sisko. I always pictured Sisko together with someone more... epic. Sisko's beard also seems different now.

Battey's running out. I intended to post more review, but... as you can see, I was banned. And not for two days, but forever.

I just posted this review in hopes that the mods might reconsider, or at least allow me to continue in some other incarnation if not as Jimmy Bob.

Right now, it seems I yet again must take a break. Hopefully not an eternal one.

 

[tau136]

Goethe, Tolstoy, Dostoyevski,, etc. were not "derivative" of Shakespeare at all, most of them weren't even all that influenced by him (it's particularly unlikely in Tolstoy's case, as he actually disliked Shakespeare), and there are plenty of authors and a lot of other world literature that is not influenced by Shakespeare any more than it's influenced by many other authors. European literature was more influenced by classical Greek and Roman authors and Aristotles' ideas about tragedy and comedy. Then there's also the literature of Middle Ages and the Italian Renaissance (Dante, Petrarca, Bocaccio). You would make more of a case if you said that Goethe was influenced by Christopher Marlowe ("Faustus"). And Shakespeare himself was definitely derivative of many other authors - the stories of his plays were mostly reworked from other works.

Arguably: Shakespeare was the potboiler author of his day; churning out hackwork to run a two horse household. Would he be on the pedestal he occupies to day if his counterpart, Kit Marlowe, hadn't taken a severe case of steel poisoning . . . doubtful.

 

[tau136]

Explorers is basically just a bunch of stuff, but it's nice. But would an Irishman really sing Jerusalem? Maybe TheGodBen can tell us?

Sorry to doublepost - this query just struck a chord with me.

Irish, from Kilarney and the fringes of the Gaeltacht . . . you're lucky he talks English; but his backstory puts him through the Aldebaran Music Academy so you've got a justification there.

BTW does the Gaeltacht survive into the Trek centuries? If it didn't the Republic wouldn't be the Republic.