Finished Bablyon 5 for the first time (spoilers)

[Harvey]

No, you cannot conclude that from that bit on Lurker's. Claudia says she was fired. JMS says she passed. We will probably never know the full story, and I doubt that we really ought to know. In the end, you just have to leave it as one of those great, unexplained Babylonian mysteries.

Semantics, really. Jan, of course, has the correct details, as do you, Neroon. You can conclude what you'd like from them. I'd say she left the series due to a contract dispute, but others would disagree.

 

[Neroon]

The unfortunate thing, at least from my perspective and certainly not from everyone's, is that the end result was the same. The character of Ivanova was not really a part of S5. While I know many folks either didn't care for the character or the actress, having yet another unintended major cast change like that between seasons jars the viewing experience.

 

[Harvey]

The unfortunate thing, at least from my perspective and certainly not from everyone's, is that the end result was the same. The character of Ivanova was not really a part of S5. While I know many folks either didn't care for the character or the actress, having yet another unintended major cast change like that between seasons jars the viewing experience.

Oh, definitely. As an avowed hater of the character, she was literally just starting to work for me as a character (and Christian as an actress) in "Rising Star." And then that's it. New character. And, as natural as JMS tries to make it feel, it's not natural. It's arbitrary and it hurts the flow of the narrative.

Which is not to knock Lochley, per say, although I felt she worked far better as a character on Crusade than on Babylon 5.

 

[Neroon]

Personally, while the changeup felt abrupt alright. it seemed to me that it was handled about as well as possible, given the circumstances. There just wasn't much room to maneuver a completely new character into the stories being told. From what Ihear, though... Tracy Scoggins was a real trooper who just dove right in and worked hard to be a "part of the team".

 

[Harvey]

Personally, while the changeup felt abrupt alright. it seemed to me that it was handled about as well as possible, given the circumstances. There just wasn't much room to maneuver a completely new character into the stories being told. From what Ihear, though... Tracy Scoggins was a real trooper who just dove right in and worked hard to be a "part of the team".

Again, agreed. There was an obvious attempt to integrate Lochley into things (although cutting her out of most of the early episodes, although pratically a good move, narratively didn't help), and it worked to a certain extent. But you can only do so much with a change that late in the game.

Scoggins, whatever my opinion of her acting talent, clearly was "a real trooper" in every sense of the word. I don't doubt for a minute that this is why JMS brought her back so many times in the movies, Crusade, and finally the Lost Tales.

 

[Candlelight]

The unfortunate thing, at least from my perspective and certainly not from everyone's, is that the end result was the same. The character of Ivanova was not really a part of S5. While I know many folks either didn't care for the character or the actress, having yet another unintended major cast change like that between seasons jars the viewing experience.

Oh, definitely. As an avowed hater of the character, she was literally just starting to work for me as a character (and Christian as an actress) in "Rising Star." And then that's it. New character. And, as natural as JMS tries to make it feel, it's not natural. It's arbitrary and it hurts the flow of the narrative.

Which is not to knock Lochley, per say, although I felt she worked far better as a character on Crusade than on Babylon 5.

Season Five was just below par, after the amazing storylines that set up and executed the first four years. Byron was dull, the telepaths weren't interesting enough to care about (did anyone else cheer when they died?), I have never been a fan of Centauri storylines so I didn't like that, half the season was spent getting everyone ready to leave and no Claudia. Plus the fact that JMS wrapped up season four so tightly in case of cancellation, when he did get the final season, knowing it WOULD be the final season we get lots of new threads over hanging anyway! That's probably the one disappointment of B5 is that I see it primarily as a tv show and nothing else, so all the comic and novel tie-ins simply don't work for me. I would love to have seen the Babylon 4 episode in 2261, or the resolution to the Keeper storyline, but we didn't see either.

 

[Starfleet Engineer]

So, does it matter what order I watch the post-series movies in?

 

[Neroon]

It very much depends upon whom you listen to. I much prefer "In the Beginning" after season four, even though it could work well at the very beginning of the entirety of B5 stories. After that, it's not all that important - the order in which they are seen. So long as you watch "A Call To Arms" prior to any of "Crusade", the soinoff series.

 

[Starfleet Engineer]

Netflix doesn't offer Crusade. Is it out on DVD? How long did it last?

 

[Neroon]

YOu can get your start on Crusade, right here.

And yes, it is out on DVD.

 

[Lindley]

Netflix doesn't offer Crusade. Is it out on DVD? How long did it last?

13 episodes, I think. It's worth seeing, if nothing overly great.

As for movie order.....my personal preference is:

Thirdspace
In The Beginning
The River of Souls
Legend of the Rangers
A Call To Arms
Crusade
The Lost Tales

Although some people would swap the first two, I feel that watching ITB first gets expectations for the movies too high. Best to watch TS first, so that you appreciate ITB for being better rather than being annoyed that the others are worse.

Also, Rangers can go anywhere you like, doesn't matter, but I feel it fits fairly well where it falls chronologically.

 

[Starfleet Engineer]

Netflix does have Crusade. I just didn't recognize it because the title makes no reference to B5.

 

[Hyperspace05]

Unless you really are a completist, I'd skip Crusade. IMO There are only two good episodes out of the 13 ("Racing the night" and "Each night I dream of home"), the rest isn't very good, sadly. All setup and no payoff.

 

[Candlelight]

I would personally skip most of the movies. In The Beginning is overrated imo.

A Call to Arms was really the only decent movie.

*cue bitch fight*

(only playing with you all)

 

[Reverend]

Unless you really are a completist, I'd skip Crusade. IMO There are only two good episodes out of the 13 ("Racing the night" and "Each night I dream of home"), the rest isn't very good, sadly. All setup and no payoff.

I'd disagree with that. To me Crusade only has two episodes that I don't mind skipping, but the rest is fine. Either way, it's worth a look and in the very least 'A Call To Arms' should be watched.

 

[chrisspringob]

Was it always in the story that Sinclaire would leave or was it a behind the scenes reason that he left?

No, the idea came to JMS toward the end of the first season as he was thinking toward the future. What he wanted to do would have required Sinclair's character to take a back seat for an extended period of time so the change was made with the understanding that the character could come back from time to time.

Well, I'd say that this isn't quite the whole story. *At the time*, JMS made it sound like it was a mutual decision that O'Hare would leave the show. But when pressed for details in subsequent years, neither JMS nor anyone else involved has been very forthcoming. There were rumors that WB "fired" O'Hare, but no one's ever gone on the record about that stuff. JMS doesn't really want to talk about it. He made some comment in one of the script books along the lines of "I'm not going to tell you what really happened", which suggests that it's possible that it wasn't simply a creative decision made on the part of JMS and/or O'Hare.

 

[Jan]

Well, I'd say that this isn't quite the whole story. *At the time*, JMS made it sound like it was a mutual decision that O'Hare would leave the show. But when pressed for details in subsequent years, neither JMS nor anyone else involved has been very forthcoming. There were rumors that WB "fired" O'Hare, but no one's ever gone on the record about that stuff. JMS doesn't really want to talk about it. He made some comment in one of the script books along the lines of "I'm not going to tell you what really happened", which suggests that it's possible that it wasn't simply a creative decision made on the part of JMS and/or O'Hare.

This is probably more than I should quote but it sums up what JMS has consistently said over the years. From Volume 3 of the script books:

Much has been said, speculated, suggested, and debated about the reasons
behind the switch-over from Sinclair to Sheridan, from Michael O’Hare to Bruce
Boxleitner. There have been rumors, questions, allegations, charges, countercharges,
pronouncements, proclamations, pettifogging, riots, insurrections, snits,
snipes, cursing and dead-catting, all over one fundamental question: was the
change in cast Michael’s idea, our idea, Warner Bros.’ idea, divine revelation or
some combination of three out of those four?​

Yes, Warners wanted a star in that role, but they had always wanted one, just
as every studio wants a star in the lead role of a TV series, so this was nothing new.​

Yes, Michael was concerned about type-casting and other issues.​

Yes, there were story complications that became apparent over the course
of the first season. So many events of the five year arc had been tied to one
character that the coincidences necessary to make it all work over the long haul
would verge on the astronomical.​

Yes, a burning bush appeared in my office late one night accompanied by
the sound of hosannas sung by the Choir Eternal. Clouds parted, lightning struck,
the seas turned to blood and…well, okay, I’m lying about that. Except for the
part about the Choir Eternal, which to my surprise performed some amazing​

covers of classic Beatles songs.

Look, the fact is that for every online dweebizoid who suggests that they
know the true and final inside story, the only people who really know the full
situation were the four people in the room at the time the discussion took place.​

And those are the only people who will ever know.​

Which like it or not is exactly as it should be. Michael is a friend and a fine
actor who I would work with again at the drop of a thespian should the
opportunity and role arise.​

And that, as far as I’m concerned, is the end of that.​

The change happened. Life happened.​

And the show went on.​

Reasons for the change on all sides makes sense to me. Not that it's any of my business.

ETA: Re: Crusade. I found it a worthwhile effort on its own. It's quite a bit different from B5 and there are a few episodes that felt sort of watered down, where I knew JMS could have written better. Much of that could be attributed to behind-the-scenes mechinations but I think the first, curtailed season of Crusade is far better as a first season than B5 had and there's only one character that I didn't come to appreciate a lot.

Jan

Jan

 

[chrisspringob]

Well, I'd say that this isn't quite the whole story. *At the time*, JMS made it sound like it was a mutual decision that O'Hare would leave the show. But when pressed for details in subsequent years, neither JMS nor anyone else involved has been very forthcoming. There were rumors that WB "fired" O'Hare, but no one's ever gone on the record about that stuff. JMS doesn't really want to talk about it. He made some comment in one of the script books along the lines of "I'm not going to tell you what really happened", which suggests that it's possible that it wasn't simply a creative decision made on the part of JMS and/or O'Hare.

This is probably more than I should quote but it sums up what JMS has consistently said over the years. From Volume 3 of the script books:

I guess what I was getting at was that, at the time it happened, when JMS posted this:

http://mirrors.ntua.gr/b5/OHare.Leave

he made it sound like it was a pretty straightforward convergence of reasons between O'Hare's, JMS's, and Warner Bros' wishes. But in later years, by the time he wrote the script book, he wrote stuff like:

Look, the fact is that for every online dweebizoid who suggests that they know the true and final inside story, the only people who really know the full situation were the four people in the room at the time the discussion took place.

And those are the only people who will ever know.

.....which seems to leave it a bit more open ended in terms of whether one of those reasons was a lot more important than the others.

 

[Jan]

And if there were other reasons, private reasons, what difference would it make? The reasons given are perfectly sufficient. Another thing to understand is that for all it was JMS who brought it up in the first place, he was still accused of hiding something from the get-go. You'd've thought that O'Hare had been caught having carnal knowledge of n'grath in the middle of the Zocalo while smoking crack and that JMS was trying to cover it up the way the posts went.

If anything, I think he's just sick of the subject. Yeah, it was an unusual move to make for a show to replace the leading man but then, B5 was an unusual show.

Jan

 

[Candlelight]

In retrospect, I think it would've been better if they were both there from the start, with Sheridan in charge of B5 and Sinclair as a separate ambassador, and at the end of season one is given the chance to move to Minbar.

Then the new ambassador in season two would cause Sheridan grief over the Clark situation, and could eventually be disposed of in Severed Dreams / Ceremonies of Light & Dark.

(This is just in terms of the show, I realise specific actors would have to be involved, etc)