Finally saw Endgame Again

[tomalak301]

Well, tonight was a good night to face fear and watch the single episode that angered me more than any other episode in Voyager's run when it originally aired (And that includes Fury). Maybe it is good to watch things a second time so you know and expect what is coming because I found myself more forgiving of it this time around than last.

There were many moments where I actually liked, in that it seemed like the hearts and emotions were in the right place. Kim talking about the Journey, the return home with the fireworks, the talk in the Mess Hall between Janeway and Janeway, Torres and Paris finally getting the baby, stuff like that.

What doesn't work though, and why I still consider it the worst series finale of all of Trek (With Enterprise, I consider Terra Prime the series finale of that series, with These Are the Voyages, an episode I didn't mind too much, serving as an epiloge) is the plot. It just felt like the writers said, "let's ignore everything that came before in the last 7 years except for a decision Janeway made and some other lose non-relavent ends to serve as this story's plot." For one, Cakotay and Seven? That almost made me gag. Janeway violating every single rule just to set the plot in motion? That was not great either. Hopefully all of that technology is destroyed because no one should ever be able to use stuff like that, until the time is right.

One other thing I was thinking about in this episode, was that I was actually feeling sorry for the Borg. They didn't do anything wrong in this episode and the only reason we hate them is because we're told to hate them. Still, I couldn't shake the feeling that the real enemy in this story wasn't the Borg, but Admiral Janeway, mainly because of her actions in changing history for a few crewmembers who died. I wouldn't mind living in that future, even though what was happening to Tuvok was kind of a bummer.

Anyway, so yeah I finally saw Endgame again for the first time in 8 years. I'm not angry with it, mainly because I like what came before and it is about the journey, but much like the series as a whole, the potential for opportunities was right there. Would have been nice to include an extra hour too, but oh well.

 

[sbk1234]

I was never too bothered by Endgame, except that I really felt cheated in that I didn't see them interacting with the Alpha quadrant. I would have liked to have seen something of a victory/welcome home celebration from the Federation, or something like that.
What can I say? I'm a sucker for the happy ending.

 

[The Grim Ghost]

I see Endgame as a letdown, but not to the degree most people here seem to.

For me the Borg story was fine. It had been a major theme since 7 came onboard and I liked the idea of Voyager dealing the Borg a solid defeat before leaving.

C/7 was a huge mistake that came out of nowhere and just doesn't work.

On future Janeway though..

Much has been made of Future Janeway's actions corrupting the timeline. I agree with that and see it as a huge mistake. I don't see why Janeway prime should be held accountable for the actions of her future self though. Future Starfleet seems to hold people responsible for their future actions, but I don't. To me it doesn't make sense. Future Janeway died for her actions, let that be the end of it. For all we know it was an alterante Future Janeway that traveled back to a different timeline. Whew.

The other major letdown is not getting to see anything after their return.
This really should have been a 3 part episode. Two parts involving the endgame story, and 1 part devoted to a little bit of the aftermath.

That said, I enjoy the episode for what it is and I don't see it as a huge slap in the face. But yeah, it could and should have been much better.
I think part of it is that TNG and DS9 both had great endings that each gave some degree of closure (more DS9 there). Our expectations for a Trek last episode had been raised. Voyager seems like a lot of major questions are just left hanging in the air.

 

[Gary7]

This episode fully violated "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one."

Just because some of her crew didn't make it or was debilitated doesn't mean you just sacrifice the lives that everyone made for themselves upon their return, in an attempt to "make things right." The odds of the mission succeeding were good, but not enough to discount the chance for failure. And if it did fail... the result could have been far worse.

The trouble is, it means Janeway was suicidal. She knew full well that if her mission succeeded, THAT incarnation of her would no longer exist. If it failed, well... no one would be the wiser either, unless the recorded events were somehow later retrieved.

Remember "Minority Report"? Arrest the surviving Janeway because her future self had committed another temporal crime.

 

[USS Renegade]

Re: Finally saw The Episode That Must NEVER Be Named again

The episode you mention, the one I call "The episode that must never be named", is the only episode of Voyager I have only seen once.

I can't imagine I will hate it less seeing it a second time.

The Chakotay and Seven of Nine bit, that was just stupid. Totally out of nowhere, out of character. Now, though I did always figure Chakotay and Janeway to have a little something going on, I wasn't upset because they didn't. But the C/7 relationship seemed like it was just thrown in as either a bad "lets surprise everyone" idea, or as a mean "lets piss some people off" idea. It was either stupid and bad writing, or stupid and mean spirited.

I will always hate it because it DESTROYED the 24th century timeline. I get that the producers and writers were sick of the 24th century. You know what, I can understand getting sick of writing something for so long. But, it was something that a lot of fans enjoyed. Just because they didn't want to do 24th century Trek any more they made sure NO ONE could do 24th century Trek any more. Voyager comes home with all that advanced technology, weapons, shields, armor. It took most of the fleet combined to destroy one Borg vessel and now Voyager has the capability to wipe out the Borg with ease. So, name your conflict. The Dominion? No more worries there. The Rommies? Puh-leez. You get the idea. After that episode, the ONLY threat to the Federation is going to have to be even more powerful than the Borg.

Janeway herself breaking all the rules to get back. Bah! I loved the character because she was flawed, but they could have let her get her ship back with a little dignity. I would have preferred to see the crew get home through ingenuity and a little luck as opposed to Janeway's future self cheating them home.

They should certainly have had some post-return interaction for sure. Not for guest appearances by TNG/DS9 cast and stuff like that, I wanted to see little things like Captain Janeway getting to meet Harry Kim's parents.

And that very last scene, as everyone looks at the earth from the viewscreen on the bridge. They finally get back to earth after SEVEN years of not knowing if they would EVER see it again, and the most undisciplined crew in all of Starfleet doesn't cheer! They don't smile! They don't congratulate the Captain! They just stoically bring the ship in on the Captain's order. BS! There would be bloody champagne on that bridge, and had Neelix been there the way he should have, he would have had party hats for everyone!

No, it was crap. Total crap. It was so obvious that so little thought or caring went into that episode that it should have been titled "Lets Get This Shit Over With So I Can Go Bowling."

 

[TheGodBen]

I don't see why Janeway prime should be held accountable for the actions of her future self though. Future Starfleet seems to hold people responsible for their future actions, but I don't. To me it doesn't make sense.

Captain Janeway may not be responsible for the actions of Admiral Janeway, but she is still responsible for her own illegal actions. She agreed to go along with Admiral Janeway's plan knowing that it would illegally change the timeline, she is responsible for that decision and deserves to be imprisoned.

To put it in contemporary terms, if your friend planned a bank robbery and asked you to help, you are committing an illegal act by agreeing to help him. It doesn't matter that you weren't the one who planned the robbery, you had the choice to go along with it or not and if you agreed to then you are just as culpable in the crime as your friend.

Endgame completely ruined Janeway's character in my eyes. Before that she could be a little irritating, but after seeing Endgame I lost all respect for her.

 

[scottydog]

Endgame would have worked for me if it were generally acknowledged that Janeway had gone crazy (like Dukat in DS9). But Admiral Janeway easily convinced Kim that her plan was righteous, and the makers of the episode apparently thought that we loved the characters so much that we would blindly accept any plan to save them all, even if the plan meant comproming prized starfleet values. That's such a shame.

 

[The Grim Ghost]

I don't see why Janeway prime should be held accountable for the actions of her future self though. Future Starfleet seems to hold people responsible for their future actions, but I don't. To me it doesn't make sense.

Captain Janeway may not be responsible for the actions of Admiral Janeway, but she is still responsible for her own illegal actions. She agreed to go along with Admiral Janeway's plan knowing that it would illegally change the timeline, she is responsible for that decision and deserves to be imprisoned.

To put it in contemporary terms, if your friend planned a bank robbery and asked you to help, you are committing an illegal act by agreeing to help him. It doesn't matter that you weren't the one who planned the robbery, you had the choice to go along with it or not and if you agreed to then you are just as culpable in the crime as your friend.

Endgame completely ruined Janeway's character in my eyes. Before that she could be a little irritating, but after seeing Endgame I lost all respect for her.

Godben, the way I see it that was Admiral Janeway's future. I don't see why the crew of Voyager had any responsibility to preserve something that hadn't happened for them yet. I still place the blame squarely on Admiral Janeway, not Captain Janeway.

Think about the DS9 episode with a similar premise (the name escapes me) where the Defiant meet their descendants who have built their own culture. In the end they decided to stay and preserve it (though it didn't work out thanks to future Odo) but it was presented as a decision for everyone, not some rule they had to follow. Personally I thought O'Brien's 1st instinct on it was right. He had a family in the present to worry about and what happens in the future for people he doesn't even know isn't his responsibility.

Also who says the Voyager future was even wiped out after the change? I believe it continued on, just in another dimension or alternate universe or whatever you would like to call it. I've never bought into the "one timeline" idea. Trek has been so inconsistent on what can and can't be changed in time travel it is really hard to say.

If you're in the future you have a responsibility to preserve the past, since if you don't you MAY not exist.
If you're in the past you have no responsibility to preserve the future.

My head hurts.

 

[propita]

Well, Captain Braxton's successor didn't come back and toss Voyager back to the Delta Quadrant, so I suppose this is the way the timeline was supposed to play out--that they came home after 23 yrs then Admiral Janeway went back in time then they came home ofter 7yrs instead

It's all part of the Relativity's timeline. And you know that time-travelers would make sure that their timeline occurs.

 

[TheGodBen]

If you're in the future you have a responsibility to preserve the past, since if you don't you MAY not exist.
If you're in the past you have no responsibility to preserve the future.

I understand what you're saying and I can see how you can come to that conclusion, but Captain Janeway made the decision to use technology from the future to change the present. She loaded her ship up with advanced futuristic technology and then destroyed a large part of the Borg transwarp network. She had no right to make that decision, she was playing with the nature of reality.

 

[The Grim Ghost]

I see your point, I just don't see it as a black and white decision.

The timeline was already messed up just by Admiral Janeway coming back, after that there was really no right or wrong thing to do. I say if you have the tools to accomplish some good just dropped into your lap then use them.

I can understand the opposite view I just don't agree with it.

If Admiral Janeway was truly unbalanced then what would her reaction be if Captain Janeway refused her offer? They obviously weren't going to keep her imprisoned forever. Offer to let her go on the condition that she go "back to the future"? What if she took matters into her own hands and really started messing up the timeline to get what she wanted? She could have traveled further back and forced Voyager to take some of the opportunites they passed up on for moral reasons.

 

[Praetor]

I just turn my brain off and try to enjoy it. It has it's redeeming qualities, but a clusterfuck of problems, too.

 

[USS Renegade]

I just turn my brain off and try to enjoy it. It has it's redeeming qualities, but a clusterfuck of problems, too.

I disagree, it has NO redeeming qualities.

 

[Michael]

I just turn my brain off and try to enjoy it. It has it's redeeming qualities, but a clusterfuck of problems, too.

Took the words right out of my mouth there. As a finale I find it utterly forgettable, but there are some elments I like about it. Personally, I see most of Endgame's redeeming qualities in its production values. I always like to see the AGT uniforms and thought the sets and effects were pretty impressive.

 

[apenpaap]

I hate Endgame, for C/7 and for turning Janeway into a female version of Annorax.

 

[Seven of Five]

Hmm, let's see...

Chakotay and Seven was a bit left-field, and I didn't like how Admiral Janeway only apparently came back to save Tuvok, Chakotay and Seven. What about the rest of the crew that died along the journey? Just because they didn't receive screen-time they weren't important enough to go back for?

Along with the way she also changed the future for everybody who actually did make it back to Earth without them getting a say in the matter, the episode just doesn't sit very well with me.

It definately had its heart in the right place - seeing the crew (albeit 26 years in the future) on Earth, Seven actually having a romance (albeit with Chuckles) and Harry, Mr let's-get-home-ASAP, realises it's been the journey, rather than the destination that was important. I think the episode needed a lot more thought going into it, and some of the core elements should have been altered.

 

[ST-One]

That episode is full of problems... but it is very watchable - I love the interactions between Mulgrew and Krige for example...

But since they knew season seven would be the last, they should have used that entire season to get the Voyager and her crew home and not just the last two episodes...

 

[exodus]

I just turn my brain off and try to enjoy it. It has it's redeeming qualities, but a clusterfuck of problems, too.

I disagree, it has NO redeeming qualities.

I disagree, I think "Endgame" is great.

I think it tells a story of a capt. that stood by her morals & ethics and upon returning home she had nothing to show for it, no husband, no children, no future because the Delta Quad. robbed her of all that. She lost her best friend to mental illness, she lost both her future mates(Mark & Chakotay), she lost her surrogate daughter(Seven) & her dogs.

She fought for years too keep whatever family she had crossing that Quaderant and lost it all. She had to go back because while they all had family back on Earth, the Voyager crew had become a family too. What was the point of getting home if they all, especially Janeway lost their surrogate family?

Voyager remaining a whole family was now just as important as getting home. Their futures didn't matter, just as long as they all made it to Earth together.

 

[DGCatAniSiri]

Personally, I hate one of the key things about the episode - the idea that the crew is a family. They're not. Just the Senior Staff. I cite as my example the fact that what is it that convinces Captain Janeway to go along with Admiral Janeway's plan, the fact that another twenty-six crewmen will die? 'That's an acceptable loss.' Seven of Nine is among them? 'All right, crazy hats on, we're doin' this!' I know there's the J/7 solution, but onscreen, they were just mentor and student and close friends. The fact that this one crew member tipped the scales to get Janeway to go along, not any of the other twenty-five pisses me off and destroys any idea I had that the crew was a family.

There are moments I enjoy - I will always get a laugh out of 'It took you thirty-three years to come up with JOE?' - but 'Endgame' is just full of mistakes and problems that it cannot, as a whole, overcome.

 

[exodus]

Personally, I hate one of the key things about the episode - the idea that the crew is a family. They're not. Just the Senior Staff. I cite as my example the fact that what is it that convinces Captain Janeway to go along with Admiral Janeway's plan, the fact that another twenty-six crewmen will die? 'That's an acceptable loss.' Seven of Nine is among them? 'All right, crazy hats on, we're doin' this!' I know there's the J/7 solution, but onscreen, they were just mentor and student and close friends. The fact that this one crew member tipped the scales to get Janeway to go along, not any of the other twenty-five pisses me off and destroys any idea I had that the crew was a family.

There are moments I enjoy - I will always get a laugh out of 'It took you thirty-three years to come up with JOE?' - but 'Endgame' is just full of mistakes and problems that it cannot, as a whole, overcome.

Same with Picard & Sisko.

There was no other crewman more importatant to Picard than Data, just like nobody was more important to Sisko than Dax. It was more important to Picard to rescue Data than it was to even worry about Beverly. Sisko didn't take time off even after his wife's funeral but he took time off after Jadzia died.

It's just human nature to be come closer to those you see & work with everyday on the same level than the other subordinates you don't. Look at "Good Shepard". 6 years lost already and Janeway didn't even know some of the crewmen from the lower decks because their jobs don't cross her path. Just like Picard didn't know Barclay, until he started to draw attention to himself.

A capt. doesn't interact with any outside the senior staff, that's the job of the First Officer.