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Finally saw Endgame Again

This is the nature of Trek though. How many of the crew die throughout all of the series? Dozens? Hundreds? And unless they are a major character they are never mentioned again. Even if one of the main characters is extremely upset by a no-name dying in an episode, by the next ep. it is as if it never happened and they are reset to their normal personality.
Nobody ever has any long term mental stress from all of the death they are exposed to.

Chalk it up to offscreen futuristic medical/psych treatments or ignore it, because you aren't ever going to get a in universe answer to it.
 
I just turn my brain off and try to enjoy it. It has it's redeeming qualities, but a clusterfuck of problems, too.

I disagree, it has NO redeeming qualities.
I disagree, I think "Endgame" is great.

I think it tells a story of a capt. that stood by her morals & ethics and upon returning home she had nothing to show for it, no husband, no children, no future because the Delta Quad. robbed her of all that. She lost her best friend to mental illness, she lost both her future mates(Mark & Chakotay), she lost her surrogate daughter(Seven) & her dogs.

She fought for years too keep whatever family she had crossing that Quaderant and lost it all. She had to go back because while they all had family back on Earth, the Voyager crew had become a family too. What was the point of getting home if they all, especially Janeway lost their surrogate family?

Voyager remaining a whole family was now just as important as getting home. Their futures didn't matter, just as long as they all made it to Earth together.


Yeah, well, I think it tells a story that disregards everything that came before it. It tells a story that reflects a Janeway that loses everything and goes back to fix it, but except for her ex-fiancee and her dogs all the other "losses" she took were concocted in that ONE episode. It shows a Starfleet Admiral losing all respect for not only her uniform, but her very universe. An Admiral that selfishly fraks up her own timeline, introducing future technology that totally shifts the balance of power in an entire quadrant of the galaxy for decades. An Admiral that saves her crew VERY descriminently! She could have gone back and stopped Voyager from ever entering the badlands and getting trapped in the Delta Quadrant at all, but then she would have never had the relationships that she did with Torres, Paris, Chakotay, Neelix, Kes, Seven, etc. She would have saved ALL of her crew and ALL of the Maquis from being killed and/or stranded, but she DID NOT. She went back to seven years in the DQ to save 22 lives when she could have saved HUNDREDS of lives between the two ships but she chose NOT to because it didn't suit her selfish needs. Hell, she could have stopped Equinox from going to the DQ too and saved even more human lives and hundreds or perhaps THOUSANDS of alien lifeform from dying at the hands of Claude Hooper Bukowski. Bah!

Like I say alot, I like Janeway because she is flawed, but she is not THAT flawed. The whole scenario was disrespectful to the character.
 
It's the lack of feeling that the whole crew is a family. It's just the senior staff that's the family here - the rest of the crew might as well just get the words 'cannon fodder' tattooed on their foreheads.

I believe Ensign Rickey had that tattooed on his ass, actually.
 
^ Yes, but you're kind of acting like Admiral Janeway = Captain Janeway.

Let's say Admiral Janeway was nuts, unstable, depressed, obsessed..however you want to put it.

Anyway she pops in with an idea that can save those few people. Why shouldn't Captain Janeway (who to me is a different person) take the opportunity to save who she can?

Look, if we really want to get crazy with this, any Starfleet ship should be able to travel in time since they were doing it even in the TOS days. They don't do it in every episode because it would get boring and it doesn't serve the story. I know it's frustrating but that is the deal.
 
End Game was a cop out. The writers and producers were probably at a cross roads, not able to come to an agreement on how to end it. Then someone imagined this far fetched idea so different from everyone else's ideas, that they said--"that's it." It's a very easy solution. It also makes the characters (like Janeway) accessible for any other production work in that time frame. Maybe they didn't want to limit their options...

I think you've hit the phaser on the head. ;)

I can quite understand those who are unable to put up with the crass violations that are present - I am one who can enjoy the 'Lost in Space' movie and 'Batman and Robin' for what they are. :p

Yeah, like I said. It should have been titled "Lets Get This Over With So I Can Go Bowling".
 
^As we saw in episodes like Good Shephard though, everybody did not know everybody and that was 6 years.

I do agree though that Voyager did push the idea of Family (especially in Year of Hell with Janeway's speech) but I don't think that justifies ruining 33+ years of life in favor of a few people. I mean what if you lived in that future and somehow you found out that someone is going to change history and there is a possibility that in the new history you don't even exist for the sake of Voyager's "family". I don't know about you, but that would scare the shit out of me.
.....but if that's the case, you wouldn't know anyway because you wouldn't exist.

So that's how you justify mass genocide. Great.
Because that idea is completely stupid IMO. Sorry but I do.

Do you really think the writers would give us an ending if they wanted Janeway to be seen as a mass murder to save one person? What Trek would want to to see the main character & capt. as a villian?

Barclay, The Doc & Harry all knew what she was up to. If any of them thought what she was doing would cause mass genocide, would you really think all of them would risk their freedom & careers and still allow her to go? The Doc alone has the ability to releave her of duty if he found her actions to be mentally incompetent.

Besides, if the Prime Directive tells us not to involve ourselves in a culture and that culture is dying of illness, like the Vidiians & the phage, isn't that condoning genocide too?
 
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^ Yes, but you're kind of acting like Admiral Janeway = Captain Janeway.

Let's say Admiral Janeway was nuts, unstable, depressed, obsessed..however you want to put it.

Anyway she pops in with an idea that can save those few people. Why shouldn't Captain Janeway (who to me is a different person) take the opportunity to save who she can?

Look, if we really want to get crazy with this, any Starfleet ship should be able to travel in time since they were doing it even in the TOS days. They don't do it in every episode because it would get boring and it doesn't serve the story. I know it's frustrating but that is the deal.


Hmm, okay. So it makes sense that Captain Janeway says "Okay, lets grab this opportunity to get home while it is here. Even if it is an obvious no-no, enacted by a future version of myself that is a little crazed, and will certainly have drastic consequences."...

BUT that same Captain Janeway said "No" to Q just popping them home with no further ramifications. No pollution of the timeline, no introduction of futuristic weaponry into the present. They just get home. The end. Everyone is safe on earth, the end.

So, yes, I guess I am acting like Captain Janeway = Admiral Janeway, because in "Lets Get This Shit Over With So I Can Go Bowling" Captain Janeway does not act like Captain Janeway, she acts like Admiral Janeway.
 
^ Yes, but you're kind of acting like Admiral Janeway = Captain Janeway.

Let's say Admiral Janeway was nuts, unstable, depressed, obsessed..however you want to put it.

Anyway she pops in with an idea that can save those few people. Why shouldn't Captain Janeway (who to me is a different person) take the opportunity to save who she can?

Look, if we really want to get crazy with this, any Starfleet ship should be able to travel in time since they were doing it even in the TOS days. They don't do it in every episode because it would get boring and it doesn't serve the story. I know it's frustrating but that is the deal.


Hmm, okay. So it makes sense that Captain Janeway says "Okay, lets grab this opportunity to get home while it is here. Even if it is an obvious no-no, enacted by a future version of myself that is a little crazed, and will certainly have drastic consequences."...

BUT that same Captain Janeway said "No" to Q just popping them home with no further ramifications. No pollution of the timeline, no introduction of futuristic weaponry into the present. They just get home. The end. Everyone is safe on earth, the end.

So, yes, I guess I am acting like Captain Janeway = Admiral Janeway, because in "Lets Get This Shit Over With So I Can Go Bowling" Captain Janeway does not act like Captain Janeway, she acts like Admiral Janeway.
If the Time Cops from "Relitivity" exist and their job is to correct any issues in the time line that shouldn't be allowed, how is pollution of the time line still possable? The Moblie Emitter, Starling and Kronoworks all pollute the time line but like "Year of Hell" are allowed to exist because the events are meant to happen. Who's to say "Endgame" is any different?
 
^ Yes, but you're kind of acting like Admiral Janeway = Captain Janeway.

Let's say Admiral Janeway was nuts, unstable, depressed, obsessed..however you want to put it.

Anyway she pops in with an idea that can save those few people. Why shouldn't Captain Janeway (who to me is a different person) take the opportunity to save who she can?

Look, if we really want to get crazy with this, any Starfleet ship should be able to travel in time since they were doing it even in the TOS days. They don't do it in every episode because it would get boring and it doesn't serve the story. I know it's frustrating but that is the deal.

A few thoughts on this.

First, since time travel has been a capability in the Trekverse since TOS, albeit with various different methods, there must have been some grand cover-up to keep people from doing what Kirk did accidentally once and purposefully twice. Maybe this is where Dulmer and Lucsly come in?

Second, I think Admiral Janeway had definitely gone nuts. She had come to feel that her years of dedication to principles and duty, which were indeed to blame for the Voyager remaining stranded in the Delta Quadrant rather than simply sending the ship home using Caretaker technology, were to blame for her suffering and in the end clearly meant nothing. She was prepared to drag the ship back to the Alpha Quadrant.

Third, I think Captain Janeway, if she were to stay true to her principles, was obligated to lock up the Admiral, and quarantine her shuttle and its technology. I think Captain Janeway resisted her desire to obey her principles initially, largely because she still felt guilty that it was her principles that stranded the crew seven years prior. To that end, and to confirm the Admiral was who she appeared to be, Janeway went along with the Admiral and allowed herself to be won-over by the Admiral's plan. I believe she trusted her future self - 'What's a small change in the timeline if it gets us home? My future self seems to think it's a better idea, and I now with hindsight wish I'd handled the Caretaker affair differently. So let's give her the benefit of the doubt.'

Now let's be clear: Captain Janeway was in the wrong here. As I said earlier, Admiral Janeway had gone nuts. Captain Janeway couldn't - or wouldn't - see it.

It's moment where Captain Janeway decides to try to destroy the hub as well as try to use it to get home, and the following 'Have our cake and eat it too' that is overlooked. I believe that this was the moment where Captain Janeway finally realized her curiosity and guilt had already let her go further than she should have - letting Admiral Janeway reveal future information to her, trying to get her to change time to get the crew home sooner to alleve her conscience - and showed her the dangers of the guilt complex she had been tormenting herself with for seven years, the danger that she could end up like Admiral Janeway. Captain Janeway hoped, committed already to this plan as she was, that if she could simultaneously destroy the transwarp hub and get the crew home, she would redeem herself (and her future self) not only in the eyes of the crew, but also in the eyes of Starfleet and in a greater philosophical sense, redeem her own soul for what she did seven years ago, and what she had been doing in the time since.

Most of this is my personal extrapolation of what was going on. It would have been nice had they spent more time fleshing the dramatics of this out on screen. :rolleyes:

If the Time Cops from "Relitivity" exist and their job is to correct any issues in the time line that shouldn't be allowed, how is pollution of the time line still possable? The Moblie Emitter, Starling and Kronoworks all pollute the time line but like "Year of Hell" are allowed to exist because the events are meant to happen. Who's to say "Endgame" is any different?

I think the evidence argues that the 'Endgame' future was actually an alternate future along the lines of 'Yesterday's Enterprise.' Compare Janeway going back in time to the alternate Tasha Yar going back aboard the Enterprise-C. That Tasha clearly did go back in the 'real' timeline as we encountered her daughter without any explanation that the timeline had 'changed' and I'd argue similarly that Voyager returning home 'early' after being aided by Admiral Janeway is the way history 'really' records what happened. That's why the Temporal Integrity Commission didn't 'fix' it.
 
^^^So all this "mass genocide" everybody keeps talking about is also meant to happen and approved by the TIC.
 
Well, the TIC didn't go back and stop the Eugenics Wars or WWIII...

Or did they? :shifty:

I'd hardly call it 'mass genocide.' If anything, it's a butterfly effect. By altering time, Janeway (or whoever) can't help but alter other things in subtle ways. However, if it's part of history, it's part of history.

It's really a wonder the Sisko didn't get in trouble for those tribbles he brought back from 2268...
 
Trouble?

He told the powers that be?

I thought the episode predicated the beginning of a massive conspiracy?

Besides freejacking extinct species is... Well, Kirk and his Whales? Sounds like an amazingly lucrative... Quark must have considered Zoo of the dead or medical opportunity of just plane "religious sexual" extractions.

I am classifying a new sort ism called Timism.

Sacrificing your own reality for the right of another reality which has an earlier stake on being more real is an odd choice. Choosing one reality over over another for arbitrary reasons other than local regionalism is just madness or godhood.
 
^:rommie:

Well, Sisko didn't tell them, but one wonders that the cat didn't eventually get out of the bag when Quark started marketing tribble-flavor jumjaa sticks...

And the whales. Yeah. Good point.

I bet the Klingons began another Great Tribble Hunt only to be interrupted by the Dominion War.
 
And some transporter accident Genius Tribble sided the entire species with the Dominion to save her people from the savagery of the Klingons?

The the Tribbles are a marvelous bioweapon.

Who'd weaponize them first?

Vorta eat regular food right?
 
I think the Cardassians and Romulans might actually bond over their mutual contempt for Klingons to weaponize tribbles. :rommie:

I've heard rumors that if Vorta eat too much, they pop out a clone too. :p
 
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