Finally saw Endgame Again

[DGCatAniSiri]

Tha's the thing, though - they're putting out this message of how this crew, these people, are a family, and yet it's not the deaths of a number of her crew that get to her. It's the death of ONE crewman in specific. The belief that this crew is a family is not earned. It's told to us over and over, but it is not shown.

Let's say I was Ensign Jones or whoever, and I was one of those who died. I've brough Captain Janeway her coffee and morning status report every day for the last seven years and she just refers to me as Ensign, never my name. So she was willing to let me die? Gee, thanks Cap. I'm bringing you decaf tomorrow.

It's the lack of feeling that the whole crew is a family. It's just the senior staff that's the family here - the rest of the crew might as well just get the words 'cannon fodder' tattooed on their foreheads.

 

[Michael]

It's the lack of feeling that the whole crew is a family. It's just the senior staff that's the family here - the rest of the crew might as well just get the words 'cannon fodder' tattooed on their foreheads.

You know, this is a TV series. Speaking parts are more expensive than background extras.

 

[exodus]

Tha's the thing, though - they're putting out this message of how this crew, these people, are a family, and yet it's not the deaths of a number of her crew that get to her. It's the death of ONE crewman in specific. The belief that this crew is a family is not earned. It's told to us over and over, but it is not shown.

Let's say I was Ensign Jones or whoever, and I was one of those who died. I've brough Captain Janeway her coffee and morning status report every day for the last seven years and she just refers to me as Ensign, never my name. So she was willing to let me die? Gee, thanks Cap. I'm bringing you decaf tomorrow.

It's the lack of feeling that the whole crew is a family. It's just the senior staff that's the family here - the rest of the crew might as well just get the words 'cannon fodder' tattooed on their foreheads.

They are.

We learned that in TNG when Troi has to come to grips with sending a crewmen knowingly to their deaths. These crewman are soldiers. Like Sisko said in "Rules of Engagement", part of the job is being aware you have to lay down your lives for the uniform. No officer had a choice at WOLF359 if they wanted to engage the Borg or not. Every assignement any officer is given, they are all well aware it could very well be their last. That's life of anyone wearing a uniform to work, be it a Cop, Fireman or Soldier.

 

[DGCatAniSiri]

I think we're looking at this from different angles - Yes, under the circumstances of TNG and DS9 the random crewmen are all completely interchangable. However, Voyager, especially in the finale, was pushing the idea that this ship and this crew had been the same for seven years and that it had made them into a family. However, the only sense of family I got on Voyager was from the senior staff, which defeated the point of the message of 'this is a family.' Because of Voyager's circumstances, they should have felt every loss deeper than those on the other shows. By not having that, they lose the point of the message they're attempting to convey.

 

[Alrik]

Re: Finally saw The Episode That Must NEVER Be Named again

I will always hate it because it DESTROYED the 24th century timeline. I get that the producers and writers were sick of the 24th century. You know what, I can understand getting sick of writing something for so long. But, it was something that a lot of fans enjoyed. Just because they didn't want to do 24th century Trek any more they made sure NO ONE could do 24th century Trek any more. Voyager comes home with all that advanced technology, weapons, shields, armor. It took most of the fleet combined to destroy one Borg vessel and now Voyager has the capability to wipe out the Borg with ease. So, name your conflict. The Dominion? No more worries there. The Rommies? Puh-leez. You get the idea. After that episode, the ONLY threat to the Federation is going to have to be even more powerful than the Borg.

While I agree with a lot of the points that you make, this I have a problem with. I would have to imagine that the very moment Voyager emerged from the TWC, all future tech added to the ship would have disappeared because the timeline that it came from no longer existed. Sure Janeway and company would now know about the tech, and some might even be involved in its future developement, but like Scotty said in TVH, "How d'ya know he did't invent the thing?" As the lady said, temporal mechanics gives me a headache.

 

[Praetor]

I just turn my brain off and try to enjoy it. It has it's redeeming qualities, but a clusterfuck of problems, too.

Took the words right out of my mouth there. As a finale I find it utterly forgettable, but there are some elments I like about it. Personally, I see most of Endgame's redeeming qualities in its production values. I always like to see the AGT uniforms and thought the sets and effects were pretty impressive.

I agree - I've always liked those uniforms. I also enjoyed seeing the Rhode Island and Janeway's nifty update of the speedboat shuttle.

And as stupid as it may be technologically, I liked the batmobile armor. There, I said it.

Hmm, let's see...

Chakotay and Seven was a bit left-field, and I didn't like how Admiral Janeway only apparently came back to save Tuvok, Chakotay and Seven. What about the rest of the crew that died along the journey? Just because they didn't receive screen-time they weren't important enough to go back for?

Along with the way she also changed the future for everybody who actually did make it back to Earth without them getting a say in the matter, the episode just doesn't sit very well with me.

It definately had its heart in the right place - seeing the crew (albeit 26 years in the future) on Earth, Seven actually having a romance (albeit with Chuckles) and Harry, Mr let's-get-home-ASAP, realises it's been the journey, rather than the destination that was important. I think the episode needed a lot more thought going into it, and some of the core elements should have been altered.

Very well said.

That episode is full of problems... but it is very watchable - I love the interactions between Mulgrew and Krige for example...

But since they knew season seven would be the last, they should have used that entire season to get the Voyager and her crew home and not just the last two episodes...

Totally agreed there. They should have had a final arc at the very least on a par with DS9's.

I just turn my brain off and try to enjoy it. It has it's redeeming qualities, but a clusterfuck of problems, too.

I disagree, it has NO redeeming qualities.

I disagree, I think "Endgame" is great.

I think it tells a story of a capt. that stood by her morals & ethics and upon returning home she had nothing to show for it, no husband, no children, no future because the Delta Quad. robbed her of all that. She lost her best friend to mental illness, she lost both her future mates(Mark & Chakotay), she lost her surrogate daughter(Seven) & her dogs.

She fought for years too keep whatever family she had crossing that Quaderant and lost it all. She had to go back because while they all had family back on Earth, the Voyager crew had become a family too. What was the point of getting home if they all, especially Janeway lost their surrogate family?

Voyager remaining a whole family was now just as important as getting home. Their futures didn't matter, just as long as they all made it to Earth together.

Well, I wouldn't call it 'great,' but I think you've hit on the major elements that make it enjoyable and were interesting.

Tha's the thing, though - they're putting out this message of how this crew, these people, are a family, and yet it's not the deaths of a number of her crew that get to her. It's the death of ONE crewman in specific. The belief that this crew is a family is not earned. It's told to us over and over, but it is not shown.

Let's say I was Ensign Jones or whoever, and I was one of those who died. I've brough Captain Janeway her coffee and morning status report every day for the last seven years and she just refers to me as Ensign, never my name. So she was willing to let me die? Gee, thanks Cap. I'm bringing you decaf tomorrow.

It's the lack of feeling that the whole crew is a family. It's just the senior staff that's the family here - the rest of the crew might as well just get the words 'cannon fodder' tattooed on their foreheads.

And there's the Pandora's Box... *shuts off brain*

 

[exodus]

I think we're looking at this from different angles - Yes, under the circumstances of TNG and DS9 the random crewmen are all completely interchangable. However, Voyager, especially in the finale, was pushing the idea that this ship and this crew had been the same for seven years and that it had made them into a family. However, the only sense of family I got on Voyager was from the senior staff, which defeated the point of the message of 'this is a family.' Because of Voyager's circumstances, they should have felt every loss deeper than those on the other shows. By not having that, they lose the point of the message they're attempting to convey.

Yes, when you put it that way. I agree.

For a ship of only 150, EVERYBODY should know EVERYBODY very well after 7 or so years. They already made a point of telling us that everybody that shared Tom & Be'Lanna's deck knew when they were getting affectionate. So yes, I do see your point as well.




Praetor, I find "Endgame" great because I think it has elements of "Scrooge" in it.

Janeway has become Scrooge and she's taken back, back to a life and woman she used to be. As she's doing this, she is starting to remember where the parts of her life started to unravel. The "Endgame" is the battle between Janeway & the Borg Queen(Ghost of Christmas Future). In the end, good wholesome Janeway greets Christmas morn.(Earth)

 

[tomalak301]

^As we saw in episodes like Good Shephard though, everybody did not know everybody and that was 6 years.

I do agree though that Voyager did push the idea of Family (especially in Year of Hell with Janeway's speech) but I don't think that justifies ruining 33+ years of life in favor of a few people. I mean what if you lived in that future and somehow you found out that someone is going to change history and there is a possibility that in the new history you don't even exist for the sake of Voyager's "family". I don't know about you, but that would scare the shit out of me.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Picard made sure everyone was safe, he could have been safe too, it was game over, time to build a retirement villa, but he chose to cash in an IOU form the android, and save data as well as he got saved when the Queen brainwashed him into Locutus. I'm not saying you're wrong, because you're not, but that example tied directly into the Best of Both Worlds and made complete sense.

Sisko took an assend job in th emiddle of no where. Barjor was career suiside even if he didn't get killed in some looming civil war as the planet ran out of food and resources after the cardassians spent half a century sacking it. If not for the wormhole they would never had the commenrce to get up in running by the fall of the next millennium, so the posting was just about as good as retirement.

He was so brkoen in the pilot it took GODS opening a dialogue to set him right.

O, and I think it's probable that the Prophets were supercharging his soul and after the wormhole closed and the orbs went black he was just a might deflated fromt he lack of supercharging.

 

[exodus]

^As we saw in episodes like Good Shephard though, everybody did not know everybody and that was 6 years.

I do agree though that Voyager did push the idea of Family (especially in Year of Hell with Janeway's speech) but I don't think that justifies ruining 33+ years of life in favor of a few people. I mean what if you lived in that future and somehow you found out that someone is going to change history and there is a possibility that in the new history you don't even exist for the sake of Voyager's "family". I don't know about you, but that would scare the shit out of me.

.....but if that's the case, you wouldn't know anyway because you wouldn't exist.

 

[apenpaap]

^As we saw in episodes like Good Shephard though, everybody did not know everybody and that was 6 years.

I do agree though that Voyager did push the idea of Family (especially in Year of Hell with Janeway's speech) but I don't think that justifies ruining 33+ years of life in favor of a few people. I mean what if you lived in that future and somehow you found out that someone is going to change history and there is a possibility that in the new history you don't even exist for the sake of Voyager's "family". I don't know about you, but that would scare the shit out of me.

.....but if that's the case, you wouldn't know anyway because you wouldn't exist.

Annorax's victims didn't exist either in the end. Does that make his actions OK?

 

[tomalak301]

^As we saw in episodes like Good Shephard though, everybody did not know everybody and that was 6 years.

I do agree though that Voyager did push the idea of Family (especially in Year of Hell with Janeway's speech) but I don't think that justifies ruining 33+ years of life in favor of a few people. I mean what if you lived in that future and somehow you found out that someone is going to change history and there is a possibility that in the new history you don't even exist for the sake of Voyager's "family". I don't know about you, but that would scare the shit out of me.

.....but if that's the case, you wouldn't know anyway because you wouldn't exist.

So that's how you justify mass genocide. Great.

 

[TheGodBen]

^As we saw in episodes like Good Shephard though, everybody did not know everybody and that was 6 years.

I do agree though that Voyager did push the idea of Family (especially in Year of Hell with Janeway's speech) but I don't think that justifies ruining 33+ years of life in favor of a few people. I mean what if you lived in that future and somehow you found out that someone is going to change history and there is a possibility that in the new history you don't even exist for the sake of Voyager's "family". I don't know about you, but that would scare the shit out of me.

.....but if that's the case, you wouldn't know anyway because you wouldn't exist.

If I kill someone while they're sleeping, they'll never know. Where's the crime in that?

 

[Guy Gardener]

^As we saw in episodes like Good Shephard though, everybody did not know everybody and that was 6 years.

I do agree though that Voyager did push the idea of Family (especially in Year of Hell with Janeway's speech) but I don't think that justifies ruining 33+ years of life in favor of a few people. I mean what if you lived in that future and somehow you found out that someone is going to change history and there is a possibility that in the new history you don't even exist for the sake of Voyager's "family". I don't know about you, but that would scare the shit out of me.

.....but if that's the case, you wouldn't know anyway because you wouldn't exist.

If I kill someone while they're sleeping, they'll never know. Where's the crime in that?

Well if you kill them when they're dreaming about me, I'll die won't I? And that is inconceivable!

Why did Miral, Barclay and Kim help her, if she was trying to destroy their universe?

Kim thought about saving the universe, y'know his sworn duty, and then thought better of it.

What a dick.

Captain Nog would have raped her shuttle with torpedoes.

 

[Praetor]

If a unnamed crewman dies in the woods, does Starfleet hear it?

 

[Gary7]

If a unnamed crewman dies in the woods, does Starfleet hear it?

Well said.


There is a limit as to how many people one may become familiar with. We can't expect that Janeway would know everyone. There is a hierarchy... so there will be people she never directly commands.


End Game was a cop out. The writers and producers were probably at a cross roads, not able to come to an agreement on how to end it. Then someone imagined this far fetched idea so different from everyone else's ideas, that they said--"that's it." It's a very easy solution. It also makes the characters (like Janeway) accessible for any other production work in that time frame. Maybe they didn't want to limit their options...

I have seen End Game twice and I couldn't "tune out" the premise violations... it was painful to watch. I'll probably never watch it again in its entirety.

 

[Praetor]

End Game was a cop out. The writers and producers were probably at a cross roads, not able to come to an agreement on how to end it. Then someone imagined this far fetched idea so different from everyone else's ideas, that they said--"that's it." It's a very easy solution. It also makes the characters (like Janeway) accessible for any other production work in that time frame. Maybe they didn't want to limit their options...

I think you've hit the phaser on the head.

I can quite understand those who are unable to put up with the crass violations that are present - I am one who can enjoy the 'Lost in Space' movie and 'Batman and Robin' for what they are.

 

[Guy Gardener]

If a unnamed crewman dies in the woods, does Starfleet hear it?

Well said.

Hogan got eaten in a cave. No one cared.

Human bings are incapable in the future of operating with out a consulor on call 24/7 if TNG taught me nothing else... So where was Voyagers Counsellor?

Doctor Fitzgerald semed likethe sort of counselor that would punch you in the throat and tell you to sack up.

Maybe the personality types for tiny ships are chosen just so that tey don't go insane with out constant psychological healing that they're all as dead on the inside as they need to be surevive in such an environement...

Or the Doctor kept rebooting peoples memories to help them cope with the horrors of the week to week adventures aboard Voyager?

 

[Praetor]

...only for the EMH to have his program's memroy edited when he developed a continuity error of his own in 'Latent Image'?

 

[Guy Gardener]

One law for the ruling class and another for the plebs.