Farscape or Babylon 5?

[Neroon]

EDIT: Oh wow, I did not know how long and old this thread was, so I was responding to the original post. My bad xD.

No worries. It's rather nice to see a switch back to Farscape, since it was originally a part of the the thread. And I agree that it is an incredible show, one of my all-time favorites.

 

[kirk55555]

I watched a bunch of epsiodes the last few days, so this is a pretty big post.

Shadow Dancing - This was a good episode. Franklin's stuff was decent, although trying to talk down a crazy mugger was stupid. I liked the space battle, it was done well and had a good variety of ships. It was funny seeing Ivanova try to sleep in the weird minbari beds. Sheridan's wife returns at the end, and I knew something was up with her.

Z'Ha'Dum - I figured Anna was a shadow agent from the moment she returned. she might as well wear a sign that says "I'm a puppet of the shadows". I don't think sheridan should have been so mad that Delenn and Kosh hadn't told him that they couldn't confim that anna was dead. Knowing him at that time, he probably would have gone to Z'Ha'Dum and screwed the galaxy. Garibaldi and Sheridan couldn't have thought up a stupider secret code. I wasn't quite sure what they were saying, but they couldn't have been more obvious that they were telling each other something secret they didn't want Anna to hear. The scenes on the planet were interesting. Sheridan's message about trying to change the future was just stupid. "Maybe the future was caused by my taking Delenn's warning". Really? That was such a stupid thing to say. If he had taken her warning, which had caused the future, the future her wouldn't have warned him about z'Ha'Dum, since he wouldn't have gone there in the first place. Anyway, going there obviously didn't prevent that future (not that the future would have changed, the show was very clear on that point). The actual fate of Anna and the other crew members of the Icarus that wouldn't fight help the shadows was pretty bad. I figured they had done something to her. I liked sheridan's plan of blowing up part of the planet with the White Star. G'Kar's narration at the end was cool. This was a good episode, and good ending of the season.

The Hour of the Wolf - I originally thought that the centauri emperor would be some spoiled rich guy. In this episode, you learn he is completely insane (and this is just the tip of the iceberg, as the later episodes show). Londo's reaction to his craziness was great. The head collection was creepy. The new vorlon is different and hard to hear. The noise he makes behind his words keep making it hard for me to understand him, and this keeps happening in later episodes. kosh made noises, but was perfectly understandable. I guess how understandable a vorlon is depends on how evil they are, and as the next few episodes will show, Kosh seemed to have been the only good vorlon. I never thought that he'd be revealed to have been the friendly vorlon I guess they modified Lyta's body. I wonder if she can breathe underwater. Also, I'm guessing Vir lost weight? I'm going to assume so, because in this episode, and the next few, he looks like he's contracted some kind of wasting disease. He's actually kind of freaking me out. On Z'Ha'Dum, when they went to search for sheridan, they said that the eye was looking for them. I'm going to assume that this means that Sauron is one of the shadows Londo and Vir's scene near the end was great. I'd say they are justified in killing the emperor, he's making Caligula look like a great leader, and he does worse in the next few episodes. Overall, a good episode.

Whatever Happened to Mr. Garibaldi? - The alien on Z'Ha'Dum (who is revealed to be the first one) is annoying, as are all his scenes this episode. It almost seems like people are actively blocking G'Kar's investigation. Seeing Londo interact with the crazy emperor is always interesting. Londo seemed shocked to see G'Kar. Garibaldi was losing it in his cell, and it looked like atleast one of his captor's was Psi Corp. If so, why would they need to ask him questions? Wouldn't they just read his mind? Londo and G'Kar's conversation was interesting. I wonder if Londo will keep his word. This was another very good episode.

The Summoning - The members of the centauri royal court really need to be taught a lesson. I get the crazy emperor getting enjoyment out of messing with G'kar but the centauri in general, or atleast the ones in power that we see, are pretty bad people too. I did like the joke about the torturers wanting to be called "pain technicians". The emperor is so crazy and evil that even Vir thinks he needs to die. I wonder, once again, why the vorlons sent Darth Vader to B5. I really hope that Kosh wasn't the big exception and every other vorlon is like this one. Although, since we learn that the vorlons are now going to start a campaign of mass murder to beat the shadows, I guess I have my answer as to wether Kosh was the exception or rule as to how vorlons act Garibaldi returns wrapped in plastic. I'm wondering about his return. He was in a room with weird lights, opens his eyes dramatically, and then ios later ejected from the ship so that he doesn't die, while the ship explodes with no other people leaving. I'm wondering if maybe he now has an evil personality, like Talia. It would explain the psi corps not just reading his mind, and the fact that his captors returned him seemingly unharmed but made sure they couldn't be captured. It may bnot turn out that way, but Garibaldi as a sleeper agent would fit in well with what has happened to him (although I'm not sure how long they'd need him to do that, but 2 weeks would probably be enough, especially since they're probably good at it). Its also possible he's weird because it looked like his fighter was stuck in a shadow vessel for awhile, and that the psi corp member was just an ally of the shadows. Or, it could be both. I wonder what Sheridan had ordered him to do? The vorlon fleet was huge, and they had atleast one gigantic ship (and dialog says they had a few). I guess you need a lot of ships to blow up planets. I'm wondering why the vorlon Darth vader didn't just build a moon size battle station The Centauri stuff is freaky (the emperor just gets crazier all the time) but entertaining. I figured G'Kar would get to the 39th lashing before giving up. Sheridan's return and speech were cool, and it seemed to put the idiots in the league of non-aligned worlds in line. Overall, this was a very good episode, and this season is off to a great start.

 

[Reverend]

Garibaldi and Sheridan couldn't have thought up a stupider secret code. I wasn't quite sure what they were saying, but they couldn't have been more obvious that they were telling each other something secret they didn't want Anna to hear.

Knowing something is being said that you don't quite get is a long way from knowing exactly *what* is being said, which is rather the point of a code phrase.

Sheridan's message about trying to change the future was just stupid. "Maybe the future was caused by my taking Delenn's warning". Really? That was such a stupid thing to say. If he had taken her warning, which had caused the future, the future her wouldn't have warned him about z'Ha'Dum, since he wouldn't have gone there in the first place.

What it really comes down to is that Sheridan saw an opportunity to end this in one fell swoop and took it. Trying to second guess what may or may not be a temporal paradox is an exercise in futility.

I guess they modified Lyta's body. I wonder if she can breathe underwater.

I think those are just for handling alternate atmospheres. They're not even a Vorlon thing as G'Kar has gill implants too, though you only ever see him use them in the pilot movie.

Also, I'm guessing Vir lost weight? I'm going to assume so, because in this episode, and the next few, he looks like he's contracted some kind of wasting disease. He's actually kind of freaking me out.

Not exactly, but close. Stephen Furst was diagnosed as diabetic around this time and IIRC, the way he tells it, it was a choice between loosing a lot of weight or having his foot amputated.

I guess you need a lot of ships to blow up planets.

Just one actually. They're called planet killers (for obvious reasons) and they're *HUGE*. Mostly the fleets with them are just there as escorts.

 

[Nagisa Furukawa]

Garibaldi and Sheridan couldn't have thought up a stupider secret code. I wasn't quite sure what they were saying

Sheridan was requesting two nukes to take to Z'ha'dum.

Sheridan's message about trying to change the future was just stupid. "Maybe the future was caused by my taking Delenn's warning". Really? That was such a stupid thing to say. If he had taken her warning, which had caused the future, the future her wouldn't have warned him about z'Ha'Dum, since he wouldn't have gone there in the first place.

Yeah, this is one of my absolute favorite eps of the show and the last 10 minutes were among the most exciting I've ever seen, but I've always thought this sounded fishy and awkwardly put there. I love the idea of Sheridan going to Z'ha'dum to save Centauri Prime, but I never thought his reasoning made much sense.

Kosh seemed to have been the only good vorlon. I never thought that he'd be revealed to have been the friendly vorlon

I really hope that Kosh wasn't the big exception and every other vorlon is like this one. Although, since we learn that the vorlons are now going to start a campaign of mass murder to beat the shadows, I guess I have my answer as to wether Kosh was the exception or rule as to how vorlons act

This is part of what makes Kosh's character so interesting to watch on rewatch. On first viewing, he's this vaguely interesting, sometimes frustrating, often irritating cryptic mentor who will occasionally say weird things that don't make much sense then not do anything. On second viewing, you see that he has an entire character arc; he's a traitor to his amoral, patronizing, father-knows-best culture, who actually comes to like the younger races rather than use them as pawns to the extent that he was willing to sacrifice his life to give them a chance.

 

[Reverend]

Yeah, I know I've said it elsewhere, but you can really see how much Kosh changed over the years by listening to what he says to G'Kar in 'Dust to Dust': -

And will you continue until there are no more Narns and no more Centauri? If both sides are dead, no one will care which side deserves the blame. It no longer matters who started it, G'Kar. It only matters who is suffering. What is there left for Narn if all of creation falls around us?

...No hope, no dream, no future, no life...unless we turn from the cycle of death toward something greater. If we are a dying people...let us die with honor by helping the others as no one else can.

...You cannot see the battle for what it is. We are fighting to save one another. We must realize we are not alone. We rise and fall together. And some of us must be sacrificed if all are to be saved. Because if we fail in this then none of us will be saved and the Narn will be only a memory.

Clearly he's talking as much about himself and his people as he is about G'Kar and the Narn. Indeed, compare that to what he said to Sinclair in the very first episode: -

- They are alone. They are a dying people. We should let them pass.
- Who? The Narn or the Centauri?
- Yes.

And then of course, there's his last words to Sheridan: -

I want you to know you were right. I didn't want to admit that. Just pride, I guess. You get my age, you get kind of set in your ways. It had to be done. Don't blame yourself for what happened later.

...It's too late for me. I'm sorry for what I did before. I knew what was ahead. I guess....I guess I was afraid. When you've lived as long as I have...you kind of get used to it.
I wish I could have done more for you. There's so much I should've said. Now it's too late. You're right. It's time you began fighting this war your way.

 

[JoeD80]

Franklin's stuff was decent, although trying to talk down a crazy mugger was stupid.

Addicts going through withdrawl don't always make the smartest decisions.

Sheridan's message about trying to change the future was just stupid. "Maybe the future was caused by my taking Delenn's warning". Really? That was such a stupid thing to say. If he had taken her warning, which had caused the future, the future her wouldn't have warned him about z'Ha'Dum, since he wouldn't have gone there in the first place.

Time travel isn't Sheridan's strong suit.

It almost seems like people are actively blocking G'Kar's investigation.

Remember, G'Kar only had sanctuary on Babylon 5. Anywhere else was fair game to capture him and the Centauri were willing to pay for that information.

 

[Snatcher42]

^Interesting stuff about Kosh, Reverend!

This is my favorite stretch of episodes (end of Season 3 - start of Season 4). They're so intense.

Kirk, what did you think of the Shadow's ideology as explained in Za'ha'Dum? That was the first episode of B5 I saw, and what attracted me to the show, in addition to that awesome cliffhanger, was that the central conflict seemed to be about something more than just conquest.

Time travel isn't Sheridan's strong suit.

Indeed. I agree that his logic here didn't make a lot of sense, and there's something in Season 5 that always bugs me too. But more on that later.

 

[DalekJim]

I envy anybody watching B5 for the first time. The greatest live-action sci-fi show ever made (Although Doctor Who is my favourite!).

I decided to marathon the movies and Crusade recently. The Gathering is good but flawed, The Beginning is great, Thirdspace is hugely underrated by the fandom, River of Souls is meh and Call to Arms is fucking terrible.

It put me off watching Crusade for ages which is a shame as watching it now, it is a pretty damn good show. Gonna review it for the blog.

Yeah, I know I've said it elsewhere, but you can really see how much Kosh changed over the years by listening to what he says to G'Kar in 'Dust to Dust': -

Kosh's characterisation is beautifully subtle in the show. Such few shows take risks like that.

 

[kirk55555]

^Interesting stuff about Kosh, Reverend!

This is my favorite stretch of episodes (end of Season 3 - start of Season 4). They're so intense.

Kirk, what did you think of the Shadow's ideology as explained in Za'ha'Dum? That was the first episode of B5 I saw, and what attracted me to the show, in addition to that awesome cliffhanger, was that the central conflict seemed to be about something more than just conquest.

I liked that the Shadows got a motivation besides just destroying everything. Its a motivation that can atleast be understood, even if you don't agree with it. Survival of the fittest, growing through conflict, you can see why someone might come to the conclusion that its a good idea (although personally I don't think it is). Its a philosophy I've seen/read a lot of bad guys have, but its still interesting in b5. The vorlon's side of it is also interesting, although the fact that they are causing more destruction than the shadows doesn't give them any moral high ground anymore.

Now, for the episode I just watched.

Falling Toward Apotheosis - Londo's reaction to the emperor's head collection was great. I still enjoy the emperor being completely insane, his insanity is very entertaining, and seeing Londo interact with him is awesome. Londo is good at manipulating maniacs. I'm glad the b5 staff decided to get rid of vorlon Darth Vader. Garibaldi's fight went about as well as I expected, but I'm pretty sure it did what it was supposed to. Sheridan's plan was better, and seeing the vorlon fight the part of Kosh was cool. Delenn/Sheridan getting engaged wasn't surprising, although giving him only 20 years left to live was. Its interesting to learn how G'kar loses an eye. G'Kar is lucky the emperor didn't have both his eyes removed. This was a very good episode.

 

[DalekJim]

The Centauri Prime stuff in Season 4 was the first Babylon 5 I ever watched, back when I was a little kid. Loved it then and appreciate it even more now I understand the context behind everything.

 

[Booji]

Kirk: you should take a closer look at Cartagia's head collection. The one that Cartagia dusts off might look familiar

 

[Lindley]

Who is EarthGov going to copy next, Caligula?

I can absolutely, 100% guarantee that at no point will anyone in the Earth Alliance emulate Caligula.

Hehe.

 

[sojourner]

although giving him only 20 years left to live was.

Doesn't that ruin the character for you? I mean, now you know how he's going to end up.

 

[kirk55555]

although giving him only 20 years left to live was.

Doesn't that ruin the character for you? I mean, now you know how he's going to end up.

It didn't bother me. In the end, everyone dies. For all I know, he could go out heroically, or die in his sleep. The 20 year thing doesn't ruin his stuff. Its not like they said that 20 years from now he'd be president of a shadow occupied earth, as a possesed puppet of the shadows whose last free act would be to ask an enemy of his (lets say Morden, or Bester) to choke him to death to free him. Then, I would have been angry. But, they just said he had a mazimum of 20 years left. That is far different then telling me exactly how he dies.

Anyway, on to the episode I watched.

The Long Night - Londo's plan was a good one. You'd think the Emperor's personal guard would be a bit more open to bribes, especially since they have to realise at this point that he's insane and likely to get them all killed, if he doesn't kill them for fun. It was interesting that Vir was the one to land the killing blow on the emperor. His reaction to what he did was great. the whole scene with Vir and Londo after the assassination was really good. The Shadows way of killing planets was freaky. I never would have thought last season that the good guys would end up having to fight the vorlons to stop them from mass murder. This fight to save 6 billion people is going to be interesting. Sacrificing Hal from Malcolm in the Middle (thats where I know him from, well that and seinfeld) was rough, and a great scene. The narn's reaction to being set free was weird. They were totally defeated when they started a war with the Centauri. now, with no military, they want to get revenge. That revenge would probably just end with the centauri decided to exterminate them, and the narn couldn't stop it. You don't need to be a genius to figure out that attack a force that destroyed you completely when you actually had weapons to fight them is only going to end badly for you. This was a great episode, and i'm sure the next one will be awesome.

 

[Sindatur]

although giving him only 20 years left to live was.

Doesn't that ruin the character for you? I mean, now you know how he's going to end up.

Its not like they said that 20 years from now he'd be president of a shadow occupied earth, as a possesed puppet of the shadows whose last free act would be to ask an enemy of his (lets say Morden, or Bester) to choke him to death to free him. Then, I would have been angry. But, they just said he had a mazimum of 20 years left. That is far different then telling me exactly how he dies.

I normally don't like to give spoilers, But, obviously you already know it, how in the Hell did you guess all that, just from finding out he had only 20 years to live? Did you look ahead at Spoilers? We told you not to do that!!!





Sorry, just kidding with you, that is not what really hapens, LOL

 

[Reverend]

Who is EarthGov going to copy next, Caligula?

I can absolutely, 100% guarantee that at no point will anyone in the Earth Alliance emulate Caligula.

Hehe.

Call it an object lesson in why context really does matter.

You'd think the Emperor's personal guard would be a bit more open to bribes, especially since they have to realise at this point that he's insane and likely to get them all killed, if he doesn't kill them for fun.

An Empire that employs overly imaginative, disloyal or easily bribed guards trusted to protect the Emperor will end up going through a *lot* of Emperors...fast. The Centauri Empire has been around a *long* time, so they know better. It's pretty much a given that the Emperor's personal guard are very carefully chosen for their fanatical loyalty and questionable self preservation instincts.

Also, so long as there's random murder going around, chances are that his guards are the ones doing the dirty work, thus they are the least likely to be murdered. Questioning or calling attention to this state of affairs sound like a very unhealthy course of action to me.

The narn's reaction to being set free was weird. They were totally defeated when they started a war with the Centauri. now, with no military, they want to get revenge. That revenge would probably just end with the centauri decided to exterminate them, and the narn couldn't stop it. You don't need to be a genius to figure out that attack a force that destroyed you completely when you actually had weapons to fight them is only going to end badly for you.

Angry mobs and their mouthy leaders aren't often known for their capacity for rational thought. In that state of mind, he and others like him would probably attempt to assault Centauri Prime armed with nothing but cooking utensils and harsh language. Also, that guy was clearly drunk.

...That is far different then telling me exactly how he dies.

Despite what you might think, you still don't know exactly how and why Londo dies. You just don't.

 

[Booji]

Despite what you might think, you still don't know exactly how and why Londo dies. You just don't.

Kirk's world is gonna begin to shatter after he watches 'Into the Fire'

 

[kirk55555]

Despite what you might think, you still don't know exactly how and why Londo dies. You just don't.

Kirk's world is gonna begin to shatter after he watches 'Into the Fire'

Into the Fire - First off, world not shattered This was an awesome episode, though. The fleet was cool, and the battle scenes this episode were good. The scene were Londo discovered that Morden killed the woman was great. I like how Londo beat Morden, and the shadows forces on his planet. Morden's final fate was exactly what Vir had predicted, which was cool. The big space fight was cool. Seeing Sheridan and delenn talk to both the vorlons and shadows was great. I liked how they stood up to them and got them to leave. Of course, the Shadows aren't completely gone (as seen in the future flashbacks). Either that, or the good guys find another evil race of untold power. Which means I'd have to edit

"Londo dies as a puppet of the shadows who just manages to do one last good thing before he dies at the hands of his enemy"

to

"Londo dies as a puppet of the [insert alien race name here] who just manages to do one last good thing before he dies at the hands of his enemy"

I can see why people would say I was wrong in that situation. Obviously, if the race that turned Londo into a puppet isn't the shadows, well then its a perfectly acceptable spoiler . I guess that would also mean he makes up for dealing with the shadows, but becomes the ally of another evil group of aliens, dying in disgrace anyway. So, its slightly different than what I expected, but I still know way too much about his death, and the fact that he dies a puppet after having allied with an evil race of aliens. Different, but still a spoiler that should never have been revealed.

Anyway, this was a great episode, but now we'll be going back to the Earth drama Can someone tell me now if The Illusion of Truth (which is coming up soon)is like the other news reporter episode? I could barely stand that one, and seeing it with people actively making propaganda for the Earth government would probably make me break something. Honestly, at this point either the earth and earth military are a) filled with horrible people that could have used a visit from Vorlon planet killer or b) filled with idiots who could probably drown on dry land. I've been glad that the earth stuff has been shoved to the side for awhile, but it looks to be making a comeback, more annoying than before. I'm honestly ok with some of it, and if it would just have more military people defect and maybe have a few continents on earth rebel I wouldn't have as big a problem, but I'm dreading the return of stories based on how humans are actually stupider as a race in the future then they are in 2013. I don't want to spend 40 minutes watching EarthGov propaganda. If its an episode told normally involving ISN, fine, but I'm not going to watch a story with the propaganda people told from their perspective.

 

[Nagisa Furukawa]

Well, it is different from And Now for a Word so it won't be 45 minutes of in-universe ISN. It WILL be an episode about propaganda and its affect on society, but far from being "aren't humans dumb in the future?" I think The Illusion of Truth's points on editing and how things like this are assembled are as relevant today as ever. Perhaps even more so post-reality TV, something which uses many of the same techniques and methods as pointed out in the episode to make storylines and conflict that people believe are objective reality.

 

[kirk55555]

I have no desire to watch an episode on propaganda. I won't skip it totally, but I think I'll be relying heavily on the fast forward button to keep my sanity, something I haven't been doing with B5. I just can't stand B5's take on this stuff, with propaganda so obvious that a first grader would call bs on it. Don't say "Well, people believe stuff like this all the time". Thats not true, atleast in the more modern world. Sure, people in Iran or North korea may go along with that stuff, but if the US government tried this kind of stupid propaganda in 2013 it wouldn't work at all, so I can't believe it would work better in the future.

Note: this is not an opening to start a conversation on how "The US is already tricking you with propaganda", or any political discussion.