Farscape or Babylon 5?

[Sindatur]

Don't assume you know everything, there are a number of surprises coming in Londo's and G'Kar's arcs.

JMS doesn't mind showing you the ending, considers the "how" you got there at least as important as where you go

A Prequel TV Movie In the Beginning, contains some spoilers up through S4, but, he has often recommended it as a Starting point, instead of The Gathering

You've known for a long time that G'Kar kills Londo, this is why Londo has such an aggresive relationship with G'Kar, even over and above G'Kar being a Narn. Londo has always known, from the first time he saw G'Kar's face that G'Kar was the man of his dreams.

 

[Booji]

Don't assume you know everything,

this. you still have a loooooooooooong way to go Mr Kirk.

 

[Jan]

War Without End Part 2 - If this future is unavoidable (and they say outright that it is), that sucks. Why set the future in stone? Now I know, whatever happens, that Londo and the centauri are screwed, and Sheridan can literally do nothing. Londo will just keep going until he becomes emperor, and a puppet of the shadows, then he'll be killed by G'Kar. Knowing how stuff like that means that there will be no more suspense with Londo.

You've known how Londo dies since the very first episode you saw. You've known that Londo would become Emperor for several episodes, too. Knowing what happens doesn't mean you know all there is to know. On B5, it's the journey that counts. And there's a lot more of Londo and G'kar's journey to see. Will Londo find redemption as Lady Morella says he has three opportunities to look for?

Jan

 

[JD]

^What they've said. There is a lot more to the story than just what we saw. I really don't mind these kinds of looks into the future on shows like this. Even if we are shown a definitely future, it can still be interesting seeing how that future came about. We had a whole season with flash forwards on Lost, and I still found the story interesting. Hell, we had show entire focused on a vision of the future, but since we didn't know what led to those events, the show still managed to tell an (IMO) interesting story.

 

[JoeD80]

Yeah, how Londo was going to die was stated in the very first episode of the first season. There's still not enough information to know exactly how Londo and Centauri Prime got to this state; that's in seasons four and five, so stick around for the Londo ride; there's still plenty of twists and turns coming on that particular roller coaster.

 

[kirk55555]

Well, he obviously either a) doesn't find redemption or b) his redemption is saving Sheridan and delenn from himself at the end. I was really hoping the psychic woman was full of it. Having the actual future told seemed like an idiotic plot point. Also, I don't care that G'Kar kills Londo. What I do care about is knowing that Londo will never stop being an ally with the shadows until about 17 years after the events of B5, and only then after his world is trashed. He doesn't even have the opportunity to have a change of heart, which is all I want. Even if he ends up not learning his lesson, I atleast wanted the chance that he could turn from the dark path he set out on. Now, I know he definately won't. I really wish I had skipped these episodes. They were good, but not worth ruining Londo's story arc. Are there any other episodes that tell the future? I legitimately want to know, because I want to skip them (and I haven't wanted to skip any B5 until now). I'm actually pretty angry about this. If I wanted spoilers, I'd look online. I didn't know that some episodes of the actual show needed a spoiler warning

 

[Reverend]

Yeah, just to echo to what everyone else is saying--Context. Matters.

Also, with B5 you should always remember what G'Kar said to Sakai way back in 'Mind War': "No one here is exactly what he appears. Not Mollari, not Delenn, not Sinclair .. and not me." True to form, by this point in the show we know who and what Sinclair & Delenn turned out to be and now we get to begin to find out who Londo and G'Kar really are.

As for Sinclair's changed manner, yes, he is more at peace and no longer haunted by his past as he once was. A lot happened to him on Minbar, a story which incidentally is told in the canon novel 'To Dream in the City of Sorrows'. For a tie-in novel it's pretty good. Basically, it follows Sinclair, Sakai & Marcus from around the start of season two, up until the start of season 3, showing how the Rangers were revitalized from an ancient relic of an order--a quite embarrassment to the warrior caste, mostly made up of a scant handful of old men, only kept around only out of respect for it's history--into the effective fighting force we see on the show.

 

[JoeD80]

What I do care about is knowing that Londo will never stop being an ally with the shadows until about 17 years after the events of B5, and only then after his world is trashed. He doesn't even have the opportunity to have a change of heart, which is all I want. Even if he ends up not learning his lesson, I atleast wanted the chance that he could turn from the dark path he set out on. Now, I know he definately won't. They were good, but not worth ruining Londo's story arc.

They don't ruin his arc; what actually happens is quite different from what you are assuming. That stuff is in the next two seasons (and a bit of stuff coming here in season three.)

 

[kirk55555]

Yeah, just to echo to what everyone else is saying--Context. Matters.

Also, with B5 you should always remember what G'Kar said to Sakai way back in 'Mind War': "No one here is exactly what he appears. Not Mollari, not Delenn, not Sinclair .. and not me." True to form, by this point in the show we know who and what Sinclair & Delenn turned out to be and now we get to begin to find out who Londo and G'Kar really are.

Well, we're not really beginning to find out who Londo is anymore, and thats my problem. I wanted to learn what would happen to Londo over the course of the rest of the show. Now, I know, and it makes every appearance of his from now on pointless. There is no mystery about what he'll do. He'll side with the shadows until the very end. The only question is how G'Kar got into his palace to kill him, but at this point I'll just assume he was Londo's slave. Either that, or he gained the ability to teleport. Why not? It fits the stupidity of these sections.

 

[Snatcher42]

Well, he obviously either a) doesn't find redemption or b) his redemption is saving Sheridan and delenn from himself at the end.

Well, I think "b" is partially true, but then there's also option c) his redemption involves something you haven't seen yet, but still fits into this continuity. JMS' own quote on the matter:

It's a literary...I hate to say the word trick, but it's the most descriptive. You show somebody the end right off the bat, as we did with the Londo/G'Kar scene. But how do we get there? What happens? Yes, the war is eventually won...but what *was* the price? And what does it mean to everyone involved? The best magic is when it's right there in your face, and you can't see how it's being done.

That said, I do think there might be some episode of Season 5 you won't love... and I'm not talking about the weak early half.

There is no mystery about what he'll do. He'll side with the shadows until the very end. The only question is how G'Kar got into his palace to kill him, but at this point I'll just assume he was Londo's slave.

Aaah, so hard to respond to this without spoilers! All I can say is keep watching, it's not what you think (hope that itself isn't a spoiler). And there might be a few clues in this very episode.

 

[kirk55555]

That JMS quote doesn't fill me with confidence. Basically, he's proud of writing something really stupid and passing it off as a literary trick. I had already assumed the war would be won. That part I can live with. The fact that he decided to ruin the ending of Londo's whole story and acted like it was a good thing does not help restore my lowered opinion of his ability as a writer.

 

[JoeD80]

I wanted to learn what would happen to Londo over the course of the rest of the show. Now, I know, and it makes every appearance of his from now on pointless.

Actually, you don't know at all. And your assumptions are way way off.

 

[Snatcher42]

The keyword there is trick. You don't know what you think you know (how's that for Vorlon cryptic, lol). How we get from point A to point B will actually change your assumptions about what point B means. Revisit them as early as mid-season 4.

 

[kirk55555]

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I don't see anyway to come back from this when it comes to Londo's storyarc. JMS ruined it completely. I'll still enjoy seeing Londo and watching his scenes, but anything he does I'll always be able to know what the end result will be, atleast in a big picture sense. There is no room left for surprise. Ok, maybe I'll be surprised if he goes on a random murder spree or something. But, they might as well make him emperor and kick him off the show now. Why would they bother giving him any more screen time, atleast past him making announcements for his Shadow overlords? We know that whatever he does he ends up as a broken old man who only gets kind of redeemed at the end, after almost 20 years of siding with evil. There is no room for any character growth, we know who he turns out to be. at this point, the "journey" for his character is meaningless, except to give us more scenes with a cool character.

 

[Professor Zoom]

Kirk, don't listen to everyone else. You are absolutely right in every one of your assumptions.

 

[Snatcher42]

after almost 20 years of siding with evil.

That's an assumption you'll want to revisit from time to time.

 

[kirk55555]

Its fine if we disagree. Its just my opinion. I know how I feel about stuff like this, and I doubt anything will change my mind. To be clear, I'm sure I'll still enjoy B5. But, there is nothing that can effect Londo whatsoever from now on. I don't care about how he got there at this point. I wanted to see where he was going. If I was rewatching a series, this wouldn't be an issue (I'd already know everything), but as a first time viewer I now have no reason outside my own enjoyment of Londo as a character to pay any attention to him ever again.

 

[Snatcher42]

Well, lets just save these messages and revisit them halfway through Season 4, and then again at the end of the show. Londo has my favorite character arc on television, and is in many way the heart of the series. It's also why I've come to appreciate Season 5 more. Due to cancellation fears, many plot threads were wrapped up in Season 4. But had the show ended there, Londo's arc would not have been fully told. So I'm glad we got the full story.

Again, sorry if any of this is spoilers. I'm terrible with that stuff!

 

[Professor Zoom]

Its fine if we disagree. Its just my opinion. I know how I feel about stuff like this, and I doubt anything will change my mind.

It's fine to hold an opinion, but I believe what everyone is saying: your opinion is an uninformed one as you haven't seen the whole story.

 

[sojourner]

But Kirk55555's specialty is forming opinions on things he hasn't seen yet.