Garibaldi and Sinclair were the only two who knew prior to this. Sinclair was on Mars at the same time as Garibaldi; that's where they met. (This is elaborated upon in the comics that were published during season two.) Garibaldi didn't have any other evidence beyond the badge so they kept it secret. IIRC, in the comic he just tells Sheridan that he found a piece of evidence, without identifying what it was. There wasn't anything else for Garibaldi to do until the news came around in this episode that Earth was after the ship on Ganymede and his story was corroborated with Dr. Kirkish.
Farscape or Babylon 5?
- Thread starter kirk55555
- Start date
The people fighting for Clark believe that they are being loyal to Earth and view the colonies and places like Babylon 5 that choose to go against the presidents orders as the disloyal ones and or corrupted by alien influences. I can't condone actions like bombing civilians but I imagine the pilots got caught up in all the anti-sedition talk and things like Nightwatch and fear of open rebellion and chaos, makes it much more believable that some of them could be a part of atrocities committed during the Earth civil war. Clarks forces aren't the cackling evil mustache twirling villains you make them out to be, it's not a cut and dry good and evil conflict. That and not everyone on Earth agrees with Clark and his policies (see the honest non-shill ISN reporters for an example). I don't want to get into spoiler territory but there are some reasons that the Shadows won't openly attack and destroy the Earth the way they helped the Centauri bring down Narn.Kirk55555 said:
It's worth keeping in mind that people on Earth DID fight back. Senators were barricading themselves in their offices trying to Rally support from the military and the public, the President's own elite guard were sent to take out the planet's main news outlet *before* they broke ranks and tried getting the truth out.
This was a long time in the planning. Clark and his associates had over a year to get his people into key positions throughout the Alliance. I think the only reason things got as violent as they did was because Sheridan's actions at Jupiter forced them to initiate things a little sooner than they would have liked. This in turn may have caught General Hague and his people a little by surprise, hence them having to shoot their way out of the Sol system.
Lets also remember that there's been a steady anti-alien propaganda war being waged ever since Santiago was assassinated. You keep repeating the big lie often enough, people will start to believe it. And hey, if you're building on a prejudice that already exists, so much the better.
As for the Nightwatch crazies, I think it's pretty obvious that this lot were the hardcore human supremacist types, as opposed to the well meaning but mis-informed like Zack very nearly was. Indeed, I wouldn't be at all surprised if they were originally a part of Home Guard.
This was a long time in the planning. Clark and his associates had over a year to get his people into key positions throughout the Alliance. I think the only reason things got as violent as they did was because Sheridan's actions at Jupiter forced them to initiate things a little sooner than they would have liked. This in turn may have caught General Hague and his people a little by surprise, hence them having to shoot their way out of the Sol system.
Lets also remember that there's been a steady anti-alien propaganda war being waged ever since Santiago was assassinated. You keep repeating the big lie often enough, people will start to believe it. And hey, if you're building on a prejudice that already exists, so much the better.
As for the Nightwatch crazies, I think it's pretty obvious that this lot were the hardcore human supremacist types, as opposed to the well meaning but mis-informed like Zack very nearly was. Indeed, I wouldn't be at all surprised if they were originally a part of Home Guard.
Sic Transit Vir - Londo vs. the bugs was really funny, especially when he finally skewered one with his sword, just to realise it wasn't the right one 
Its interesting to see the b5 staff mostly wearing random stuff since the station went independant (not counting the main cast). Even before this episode I had guessed that Vir is considered weird by other centauri, since he's a nice guy and has a conscience, this episode just confirmed that thought. Abrahamo Lincolni is an awesome name. Also, wqhen they talkjed about Vir giving the narn better jobs, I knew it was going to be just a cover for getting them away from the centauri completely. Vir's conversation with Ivanova was great. Centauri sex stuff is really weird 
The Sheridan/Delenn romance is ok. Its not really annoying me or anything, I just don't really care. This episode did a good job of not making you get too suspicious of Vir's fiancee. For a lot of the episode, I figured she was just a normal Centauri, with an annoying voice. I didn't even think about the narn attack being against her. Then, you find out she's insane. Sure, centauri don't care for Narn, but I don't think you'd find Londo going out and butchering them, reguardless of his apparent attitude when hearing about dead narn. Hearing her talk about all the horrifying things she and her father had done was really freaky. I may find her voice annoying, but the actress did a good job with her delivery when talking about the horrible things.
Something is really annoying me, though. What happened to the tied up narn? We see him, learn stuff about the woman, then it fades to black with her trying to get Vir to kill the narn. When the episode came back, Vir is talking to Londo, and the tied up narn is never mentioned again. There is no way Vir would kill the narn, and I doubt he'd allow her to do it, but the narn isn't mentioned or shown again. I actually went back after finishing the episode and watched the scene again. I didn't miss anything, they just never tell you what happened. Am I insane and somehow missed an explination twice? Reguardless, this was a great episode (dissappearing narn and all). This episode had a good plot, great moments, and succeeded in keeping its surprise until the end.
Its interesting to see the b5 staff mostly wearing random stuff since the station went independant (not counting the main cast). Even before this episode I had guessed that Vir is considered weird by other centauri, since he's a nice guy and has a conscience, this episode just confirmed that thought. Abrahamo Lincolni is an awesome name. Also, wqhen they talkjed about Vir giving the narn better jobs, I knew it was going to be just a cover for getting them away from the centauri completely. Vir's conversation with Ivanova was great. Centauri sex stuff is really weird The Sheridan/Delenn romance is ok. Its not really annoying me or anything, I just don't really care. This episode did a good job of not making you get too suspicious of Vir's fiancee. For a lot of the episode, I figured she was just a normal Centauri, with an annoying voice. I didn't even think about the narn attack being against her. Then, you find out she's insane. Sure, centauri don't care for Narn, but I don't think you'd find Londo going out and butchering them, reguardless of his apparent attitude when hearing about dead narn. Hearing her talk about all the horrifying things she and her father had done was really freaky. I may find her voice annoying, but the actress did a good job with her delivery when talking about the horrible things. Something is really annoying me, though. What happened to the tied up narn? We see him, learn stuff about the woman, then it fades to black with her trying to get Vir to kill the narn. When the episode came back, Vir is talking to Londo, and the tied up narn is never mentioned again. There is no way Vir would kill the narn, and I doubt he'd allow her to do it, but the narn isn't mentioned or shown again. I actually went back after finishing the episode and watched the scene again. I didn't miss anything, they just never tell you what happened. Am I insane and somehow missed an explination twice? Reguardless, this was a great episode (dissappearing narn and all). This episode had a good plot, great moments, and succeeded in keeping its surprise until the end.
Just before Ivanova shows Sheridan the picture of himself as the new Abarahamo Lincolni, he asks her if everythings's quiet:
the script said:
Jan
A Late Delivery from Avalon - It was interesting to see Michael York. He did a great job as Arthur/David. I liked the premise, and it was done well. He really seemed to believe that he was King arthur. The scenes with G'Kar and Arthur were very good. It was interesting to see garibaldi take on his toughest opponent yet, the post office Arthur's real story was very interesting. I liked learning a bit more about the start of the earth-Minbari war. Franklin was a bit of an ass this episode, but thats to be expected. I liked the resolution of the story, with Delenn being the "lady in the lake" to Arthur/David. The ending with Garibaldi succeeding in beating the post office was funny. Overall, this was an entertaining episode. Michael York's performance was great, if Arthur hadn't been played so well the episode would probably have suffered.
Arthur's real story was very interesting. I liked learning a bit more about the start of the earth-Minbari war. Franklin was a bit of an ass this episode, but thats to be expected. I liked the resolution of the story, with Delenn being the "lady in the lake" to Arthur/David. The ending with Garibaldi succeeding in beating the post office was funny. Overall, this was an entertaining episode. Michael York's performance was great, if Arthur hadn't been played so well the episode would probably have suffered.
Ship of Tears - Well, I had guessed ISN would return as a propoganda network, and I was right. Bester is back this episode, and Koenig is awesome like always. I'm glad G'kar finally gets to join the group. He definately deserves to be in it. The scenes with Delenn talking to G'Kar were very good. The White Star mission was interesting. I wish that, when sheridan kicked Bester out of the captain's chair, Bester would have said something about his desire to sit in the captains chair. Although, that probably would have been a bit too obvious a reference. There were a lot of frozen telepaths. The connection between bester and the woman they defrosted was interesting, and let us see a different side of Bester. The shadows wanting to use telepaths for their ships was a good idea. The fact that telepaths may be a good weapon against the shadows will probably be important. The new war room is a good looking set. I liked seeing a bunch of different alien ships ating as defense for B5 this episode. The flying saucer's were especially cool. Overall, this was a very good episode.
Yea, when he first showed up in Mind War, I thought, "COOL, Chekov", and now, I understand why he might sometimes cringe at Chekov, LOLThe scene with Bester in the captains chair is greatBester is my favorite villain ever. Brilliantly written and acted.
He did an awesome job bringing the character to life.
The flying saucers belong to the Vree, who are the Roswell Greys. You might remember a scene from the first season episode Grail where a man was suing a Vree for abducting and probing one of his ancestors. The large openings on the bottoms of the saucers are anti-matter cannons.
Interludes and Examinations - Well, Morden is back, and causing trouble like always. I really hope he eventually gets whats coming to him. The Doctor finally lost it. I'm glad he finally admits he has a problem and resigns. I wonder if he's gone from the show, or just his position. I guess I'll see next episode. I'm glad Sheridan finally confronted Kosh.
Kosh "Disobedient"
Sheridan: "Up yours"
Sheridan was right about the Vorlons needing to stop being cryptic and actually do something, even if it had consequences. The Vorlons fighting the Shadows was a cool scene, and it accomplished what Sheridan wanted. The Shadows taking down Kosh was an intense scene. It was interesting seeing him talk to Sheridan through his dreams. Seeing his destoryed suit was dramatic. Londo's GF dying sucked, but it was obviously Morden who had her killed, which Londo probably should have figured out. Refa may have a grudge, but he probably wouldn't want to just piss Londo off. Londo is getting really dark now, it will be interesting to see what happens. Overall, this was a very good episode, and there are a lot of things that will have ongoing consequences for awhile.
Kosh "Disobedient"
Sheridan: "Up yours"
Sheridan was right about the Vorlons needing to stop being cryptic and actually do something, even if it had consequences. The Vorlons fighting the Shadows was a cool scene, and it accomplished what Sheridan wanted. The Shadows taking down Kosh was an intense scene. It was interesting seeing him talk to Sheridan through his dreams. Seeing his destoryed suit was dramatic. Londo's GF dying sucked, but it was obviously Morden who had her killed, which Londo probably should have figured out. Refa may have a grudge, but he probably wouldn't want to just piss Londo off. Londo is getting really dark now, it will be interesting to see what happens. Overall, this was a very good episode, and there are a lot of things that will have ongoing consequences for awhile.
Yea, seeing Kosh taken out was a mind blower, Ron Howard's dad did a great job too. Completely unexpected for me, and an unheard of action at the time, killing off a fairly main character, espcially in that way.
The next episode is pretty decent too, it revisits an earlier storyline that's been sitting bubbling for some time, and it puts a nice neat bow around a couple of things.
The next episode is pretty decent too, it revisits an earlier storyline that's been sitting bubbling for some time, and it puts a nice neat bow around a couple of things.
War Without End Part 1 - Its nice to see Sinclair back for a guest appearance. Is his voice/way of speaking different? He sounds weird, although that might just be because its been awhile since I've seen him. The weird transmission from the quarantined sector is interesting, as was seeing a Vorlon besides Kosh for a second on the minbari homeworld. I like that his encounter suit was different than Kosh's. I figured that the B4 incident would be brought up again. Its cool to see Sheridan and Sinclair together. Seeing the video of future Ivanova's message was interesting.
So, Sheridan and company have to go into the past, steal B4, and send it into the further past so that it can be used as a base to help in the fight with the shadows a thousand years ago. This definately clears stuff up about the earlier B4 episode, and its an interesting time travel story. Draal's assistant (who was also in the first B4 story) is still annoying, although not intolerable. I get why Sinclair didn't talk to Garibaldi, but its weird that they didn't even put in a small scene with him and Ivanova. He shows up in the war room and meets Sheridan, then later, on the White Star, Ivanova is just there, but we weren't shown even a small scene of Sinclair/Ivanova interacting when he first arrives, which would have been nice. So, I guess the White Star evolves/learns because of Vorlon tech? Thats weird, although I'm betting its not as "alive" as Kosh's ship was. It looks like the bomb that was supposed to blow up B$ has the power to make the film go negative Sheridan showing up in the place/time that he did was really interesting. I don't think that Future Londo should have been blaming Sheridan for the destruction on this world, though. The Centauri brought all the destruction in this future on themselves from what Londo said (they were the ones who allied with the Shadows), and Londo was a big part of it. Overall, this was an awesome episode. I bet that the nest part of this episode is going to be great.
Also, I just ordered season 4 from amazon. It was easily the most expensive season. 1-3 I got copies for less than $10 used (not counting shipping) of the older DVD run. But, it was actually cheaper to buy a new copy of the newer printing of S4 then it would have been to buy a used copy of the first run Even then, it was $13 without shipping. Well, its worth it, and it looks like Season 5 hovers at around $7 used, so whenever I order S5 I'm sure it will be comparable to seasons 1-3 in price. Not that I feel ripped off or anything for S4. I'm really enjoying Babylon 5. Its just a weird price increase compared to the prices of the other seasons.
So, Sheridan and company have to go into the past, steal B4, and send it into the further past so that it can be used as a base to help in the fight with the shadows a thousand years ago. This definately clears stuff up about the earlier B4 episode, and its an interesting time travel story. Draal's assistant (who was also in the first B4 story) is still annoying, although not intolerable. I get why Sinclair didn't talk to Garibaldi, but its weird that they didn't even put in a small scene with him and Ivanova. He shows up in the war room and meets Sheridan, then later, on the White Star, Ivanova is just there, but we weren't shown even a small scene of Sinclair/Ivanova interacting when he first arrives, which would have been nice. So, I guess the White Star evolves/learns because of Vorlon tech? Thats weird, although I'm betting its not as "alive" as Kosh's ship was. It looks like the bomb that was supposed to blow up B$ has the power to make the film go negative
Sheridan showing up in the place/time that he did was really interesting. I don't think that Future Londo should have been blaming Sheridan for the destruction on this world, though. The Centauri brought all the destruction in this future on themselves from what Londo said (they were the ones who allied with the Shadows), and Londo was a big part of it. Overall, this was an awesome episode. I bet that the nest part of this episode is going to be great.Also, I just ordered season 4 from amazon. It was easily the most expensive season. 1-3 I got copies for less than $10 used (not counting shipping) of the older DVD run. But, it was actually cheaper to buy a new copy of the newer printing of S4 then it would have been to buy a used copy of the first run
Even then, it was $13 without shipping. Well, its worth it, and it looks like Season 5 hovers at around $7 used, so whenever I order S5 I'm sure it will be comparable to seasons 1-3 in price. Not that I feel ripped off or anything for S4. I'm really enjoying Babylon 5. Its just a weird price increase compared to the prices of the other seasons.
War Without End is an excellent 2 parter, glad you really liked it. Lots of layers pulled back with this one, but, many layers underneath still.
Regarding the price you paid, those of us who bought them early on, paid Trek prices for them. I think I paid $70 a season for them, and that was after they had gone down some
Regarding the price you paid, those of us who bought them early on, paid Trek prices for them. I think I paid $70 a season for them, and that was after they had gone down some
Stuff like that was expensive in the beginning. Years ago, I remember seeing a season of Enterprise being sold for some outrageous amount of money at Wal-Mart. It was so expensive, it had a HUGE anti-theft thing on it. I'm glad B5 has gotten cheaper, and that seasons of most shows aren't too badly priced anymore (although Star Trek is still a bit pricey for my budget, I only own DS9 season 4 and VOY season 3 right now).
Yup, $90 a pop for those B5 sets back in the day... glad the price has come down so much, allowing more people to enjoy the show!
For me, War Without End is the pivot point of the whole series. Severed Dreams may neatly divide the show in half, but War Without End closes many storylines of the early Seasons while starting new ones that play through right to the very end.
That said, the best is still to come!
For me, War Without End is the pivot point of the whole series. Severed Dreams may neatly divide the show in half, but War Without End closes many storylines of the early Seasons while starting new ones that play through right to the very end.
That said, the best is still to come!
The portrayal is definitely different from the season one Sinclair. He acts more like a zen monk, somewhat at peace while working towards a goal bigger than himself. I suppose living on Minbar for over a year changes a man quite a bit.
War Without End Part 2 - Another great episode, but with a big flaw (that doesn't effect my enjoyment of this episode, but messes up the rest of the show from now until the end). The future Sheridan visits is very screwed up. If this future is unavoidable (and they say outright that it is), that sucks. Why set the future in stone? Now I know, whatever happens, that Londo and the centauri are screwed, and Sheridan can literally do nothing. Londo will just keep going until he becomes emperor, and a puppet of the shadows, then he'll be killed by G'Kar. Knowing how stuff like that means that there will be no more suspense with Londo. I know what happens to him (and it sucks) and, while he's still awesome, he now doesn't even have the chance of redemption in the show, since we know he stays with the shadows now until right before he dies. This was just a horrible idea, and its the first time I can say that, in my opinion atleast, JMS screwed up big time. I mean, you can still wonder what "sacrifices" it will take for them to beat the shadows, but you know, for sure, that they win, and do it fairly well. How would you do this? I mean, I always assumed that B5 wouldn't end with everyone dead and the shadows winning, but ruining Londo's whole story arc is just stupid, and outright saying everything turns out well in general is also stupid.
Besides that, this episode itself was good. I liked how it tied in to the first B4 episode from season 1. I figured Sinclair would go to the past, but turning into a Minbari and being revealed as valen was interesting, and a nice send off for him. The two vorlons with him when he revealed himself to the minbari was cool. Overall, this was a good two parter, but with bad consequences for the rest of the show. I can just hope that JMS uses the power of ignoring continuity and does change the future (which he would have to do, since they literally left themselves with no way to change the future without contradicting what they've already said). I'll still really enjoy Babylon 5, its an awesome show. But, going forward, at the very least everything with my favorite character is colored by the fact that I know how his character arc ends already. I just wish I knew why JMS thought it was a good idea. Is Londo about to leave the show? Did his actor hint at wanting to leave, so in case he did leave they did this so you'd already know what happens to him if they have to write him out of the show? I don't know, it just seems like doing this does nothing to help the show, and just removes all the suspense from an ongoing character plot.
Besides that, this episode itself was good. I liked how it tied in to the first B4 episode from season 1. I figured Sinclair would go to the past, but turning into a Minbari and being revealed as valen was interesting, and a nice send off for him. The two vorlons with him when he revealed himself to the minbari was cool. Overall, this was a good two parter, but with bad consequences for the rest of the show. I can just hope that JMS uses the power of ignoring continuity and does change the future (which he would have to do, since they literally left themselves with no way to change the future without contradicting what they've already said). I'll still really enjoy Babylon 5, its an awesome show. But, going forward, at the very least everything with my favorite character is colored by the fact that I know how his character arc ends already. I just wish I knew why JMS thought it was a good idea. Is Londo about to leave the show? Did his actor hint at wanting to leave, so in case he did leave they did this so you'd already know what happens to him if they have to write him out of the show? I don't know, it just seems like doing this does nothing to help the show, and just removes all the suspense from an ongoing character plot.
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