Farscape or Babylon 5?

[Sindatur]

Guys, can we stop polluting his thread with beating the dead horse of Fascape? Yes, I did my fair share of telling him how wrong he was to skip some episodes, but, it's time we moved on, and let him have his thread back, IMHO.

Maybe he can revisit Farscape in 5 or 10 years and have a different perspective, when he's at a different place in life, or when the landscape of available Space Opera that's new to him is slimmer? I recently revisited Voyager and Enterprise both, after missing at least half of the episodes in first run, and I found I enjoyed them much more now, than I then. I don't know if it's because I let go of preconceived notions, or if there's so little Space opera that's new to me now, so, my tolerance level increased, or maybe a combination of both.

Continuing to beat on him, at this point isn't going to change anything, and is gonna leave the wound more raw. So, let's let it go, and enjoy (or beat on him for) his reveiws of Babylon 5.

 

[Kegg]

Sindatur's right to an extent. I've given greater lattitude to space opera shows in the last decade and the final two Treks in particular simply because they well, exist, which is a rarity in today's TV landscape.

I'd say it's more a case of B5's first season going from the sublime to the ridiculous tbh. And the Sky Full of Stars, Mind War, Signs & Portents, Babylon Squared, Chrysalis were far from dire.

Those are all good episodes, although I'd add probably Believers and subtract Mind War. What weighs them down however is most of the rest of the season. B5 was just a difficult show to get into and appreciate the damn point of doing so when going through season one.

Kind of figures seeing as he also skipped some of the most memorable episodes entirely.

While it's true he skipped some of the funniest and best written and important and most memorable episodes of the show's run, and it's even hypothetically true he might have liked at least some of them, it's clear he just didn't care for Farscape so it's kind of irrelevant as to whether or not he saw them. He watched over a quarter of the series and wasn't impressed, that's not a view that would have likely changed.

 

[Angel4576]

Those are all good episodes, although I'd add probably Believers and subtract Mind War. What weighs them down however is most of the rest of the season. B5 was just a difficult show to get into and appreciate the damn point of doing so when going through season one.

I find the first season to be better in retrospect than on first viewing. I remember when it first aired, Soul Hunters and Born to the Purple literally put me to sleep. If I'd watched Infection the following week then that would probably have been the third strike and out. Luckily I missed it and subsequent episodes were better.

On subsequent viewings, Soul Hunters and Born to the Purple have always seemed better than my initial viewing, largely because you know how aspects of those stories relate to the wider arc.

Which raises another point I guess - you can't really just watch B5 once. Once you've seen the show through once, it's fun to go back and look out for all the foreshadowing that you missed the first time around.

 

[Sindatur]

Those are all good episodes, although I'd add probably Believers and subtract Mind War. What weighs them down however is most of the rest of the season. B5 was just a difficult show to get into and appreciate the damn point of doing so when going through season one.

I find the first season to be better in retrospect than on first viewing. I remember when it first aired, Soul Hunters and Born to the Purple literally put me to sleep. If I'd watched Infection the following week then that would probably have been the third strike and out. Luckily I missed it and subsequent episodes were better.

On subsequent viewings, Soul Hunters and Born to the Purple have always seemed better than my initial viewing, largely because you know how aspects of those stories relate to the wider arc.

Which raises another point I guess - you can't really just watch B5 once. Once you've seen the show through once, it's fun to go back and look out for all the foreshadowing that you missed the first time around.

Very good point.

I watched in first run, religiously, and the only first season episodes that I disliked were Infection and TKO, but, yea, even episodes I enjoyed on first watch are better on a rewatch. I've gained a better appreciation for TKO, over the years, but, Believers has been lowered.

 

[kirk55555]

Kind of figures seeing as he also skipped some of the most memorable episodes entirely.

While it's true he skipped some of the funniest and best written and important and most memorable episodes of the show's run, and it's even hypothetically true he might have liked at least some of them, it's clear he just didn't care for Farscape so it's kind of irrelevant as to whether or not he saw them. He watched over a quarter of the series and wasn't impressed, that's not a view that would have likely changed.

I was impressed by some stuff. I liked the premise and most of the main characters. The Pilot/Aeryn stuff especially was always good (which probably explains why my favorite episode is The Way We Weren't). John, D'Argo, Zhaan and Rygel were usually good. While Crais's motivation was a bit weak in the beginning, he was somewhat interesting and could have been a good main villain (heck, atleast his motivation made sense, unlike Scorpius). So, some of the show did impress me, and I liked it well enough. If it had continued like it was in the early days, it could have easily been a show I loved. But, they went a different route, where annoying characters and annoying cliches were the focus. Also, maybe its because I get annoyed a bit when people say the episodes I skipped were "good", but now I wish I had watched The Princess trilogy, just so that people would stop acting like its the most amazing thing ever and I was wrong not to watch it. I read an indepth summary, its one cliche stretched over three episodes, with John also becoming a statue because....well, just because, as far as I can tell. Its fine if you like it, but I could name a number of episodes I did watch that were much more worthy of being watched.

Also, I really hope that when you say I skipped the

funniest and best written and important and most memorable episodes of the show's run

that atleast you weren't including Won't Get Fooled Again in that (I'd also argue that The Princess Trilogy/WGFA were in no way important overall, since I got 15 episodes farther than the Trilogy, and it was never brought up, not even once, in any of the episodes). The clips I've seen are enough for me to say that WGFA would have made me hate life. I hate humor like it was doing (not that I'd really call it "humor", since it was about as funny as a rock to the head). Did you see the weird sexual scene with Nurse Aeryn and creepy Zhaan and Chiana? That clip is one of the worst things I ever saw involving Farscape, and that is saying something. WGFA was neither important, nor well written. I will say that it was memorable, but thats not always a good thing.

I know I should just start ignoring the Farscape conversation, I'm probably only succeeding in getting annoyed and annoying people, but The Princess Trilogy and WGFA are sore spots for me. I don't care if people complain that I skipped something like Beware of Dog. But, I just don't understand the love for a trilogy that is based off a cliche that has been done in almost every TV show with a love interest in history. That doesn't mean I'll ever watch it (I'm slightly curious, but I have better ways of using my time, like watching grass grow), but its confusing how many people defend stuff like that. I've never said its wrong if other people like those episodes I skipped, I just get fed up with people saying I missed "The Best Episodes EVAR" with the Princess Trilogy. Also, I DID like a lot of parts of Farscape, and it had potential. In the end I gave up, but good writers could have easily made it a good show. I don't hate it, and its not like it didn't have some very good parts. It just declined until watching it felt like a waste of time, and that everything good had been abandoned.

I've been putting off B5 because the upcoming episodes (There All the Honor Lies, And Now for A Word and In The Shadow of Z'ha'dum) make it seem like the season is going to hit a rough patch for a few episodes just based off the summarires, but I'll probably start watching later today, if for no other reason than to get past the Farscape stuff. Also, just incase someone asks/says something, unlike Farscape I never skip B5 episodes because, even if they aren't great (I can count on less than one hand how many episodes so far in the series have actually been outright bad, B5 has been pretty consistently good so far) they're atleast important, unlike a lot of the bad Farscape episodes. Not that I expect the next few episodes to be bad, its just that their summaries (especially There Are the Honor Lies) does not fill me with confidence.

 

[Leroy]

To me, Farscape is a show that had a lot of potential that was ruined by bad characters and writing that was all over the place. There were some excellent episodes (like The Way We Weren't) and characters/ideas. There were also horrible episodes, characters and ideas. Those elements were becoming the majority of the episode, so I stopped watching.

At least you gave Farscape a shot unlike countless people who would dismiss it outright for containing muppets or some other superficial feature.

I've been putting off B5 because the upcoming episodes (There All the Honor Lies, And Now for A Word and In The Shadow of Z'ha'dum) make it seem like the season is going to hit a rough patch for a few episodes just based off the summarires, but I'll probably start watching later today, if for no other reason to get pass the Farscape stuff.

What you do need to do however is STOP reading summaries on wikipedia and basing opinions on episodes solely on them, instead just watch the next episode preview on the DVD, watch the episode then form your own opinion.

 

[Sindatur]

Kind of figures seeing as he also skipped some of the most memorable episodes entirely.

While it's true he skipped some of the funniest and best written and important and most memorable episodes of the show's run, and it's even hypothetically true he might have liked at least some of them, it's clear he just didn't care for Farscape so it's kind of irrelevant as to whether or not he saw them. He watched over a quarter of the series and wasn't impressed, that's not a view that would have likely changed.

I was impressed by some stuff. I liked the premise and most of the main characters. The Pilot/Aeryn stuff especially was always good (which probably explains why my favorite episode is The Way We Weren't). John, D'Argo, Zhaan and Rygel were usually good. While Crais's motivation was a bit weak in the beginning, he was somewhat interesting and could have been a good main villain (heck, atleast his motivation made sense, unlike Scorpius). So, some of the show did impress me, and I liked it well enough. If it had continued like it was in the early days, it could have easily been a show I loved. But, they went a different route, where annoying characters and annoying cliches were the focus. Also, maybe its because I get annoyed a bit when people say the episodes I skipped were "good", but now I wish I had watched The Princess trilogy, just so that people would stop acting like its the most amazing thing ever and I was wrong not to watch it. I read an indepth summary, its one cliche stretched over three episodes, with John also becoming a statue because....well, just because, as far as I can tell. Its fine if you like it, but I could name a number of episodes I did watch that were much more worthy of being watched.

Also, I really hope that when you say I skipped the

funniest and best written and important and most memorable episodes of the show's run

that atleast you weren't including Won't Get Fooled Again in that (I'd also argue that The Princess Trilogy/WGFA were in no way important overall, since I got 15 episodes farther than the Trilogy, and it was never brought up, not even once, in any of the episodes). The clips I've seen are enough for me to say that WGFA would have made me hate life. I hate humor like it was doing (not that I'd really call it "humor", since it was about as funny as a rock to the head). Did you see the weird sexual scene with Nurse Aeryn and creepy Zhaan and Chiana? That clip is one of the worst things I ever saw involving Farscape, and that is saying something. WGFA was neither important, nor well written. I will say that it was memorable, but thats not always a good thing.

I know I should just start ignoring the Farscape conversation, I'm probably only succeeding in getting annoyed and annoying people, but The Princess Trilogy and WGFA are sore spots for me. I don't care if people complain that I skipped something like Beware of Dog. But, I just don't understand the love for a trilogy that is based off a cliche that has been done in almost every TV show with a love interest in history. That doesn't mean I'll ever watch it (I'm slightly curious, but I have better ways of using my time, like watching grass grow), but its confusing how many people defend stuff like that. I've never said its wrong if other people like those episodes I skipped, I just get fed up with people saying I missed "The Best Episodes EVAR" with the Princess Trilogy. Also, I DID like a lot of parts of Farscape, and it had potential. In the end I gave up, but good writers could have easily made it a good show. I don't hate it, and its not like it didn't have some very good parts. It just declined until watching it felt like a waste of time, and that everything good had been abandoned.

I've been putting off B5 because the upcoming episodes (There All the Honor Lies, And Now for A Word and In The Shadow of Z'ha'dum) make it seem like the season is going to hit a rough patch for a few episodes just based off the summarires, but I'll probably start watching later today, if for no other reason than to get past the Farscape stuff. Also, just incase someone asks/says something, unlike Farscape I never skip B5 episodes because, even if they aren't great (I can count on less than one hand how many episodes so far in the series have actually been outright bad, B5 has been pretty consistently good so far) they're atleast important, unlike a lot of the bad Farscape episodes. Not that I expect the next few episodes to be bad, its just that their summaries (especially There Are the Honor Lies) does not fill me with confidence.

There All The Honor Lies - The merchandising part of the story, yes, is mostly fluff, but, there's some good humor, but, The Minbari stuff is great, IMHO.

And Now For a Word, I think is very good

In The Shadow of Zhadum - is excellent and unveils some important pieces of the Mythology

 

[kirk55555]

With "There All the Honor Lies" its actually the main story that I'm not sure about, same with ITSOZ. ANFAW just sounds weird. I'm definately going to watch them, I've just been putting it off for a few days.

 

[Sindatur]

What you do need to do however is STOP reading summaries on wikipedia and basing opinions on episodes solely on them, instead just watch the next episode preview on the DVD, watch the episode then form your own opinion.

Yea, I don't get this. If you've got the next episode available to watch, why do you want to read a summary or even watch a preview? Just dive right in and let it unfold without any preconceptions. Previews are only needed when you have to wait for the next episode and want to get your excitement juices flowing, and spoilers like episode summaries should only be used to ease the pain of waiting for the next episode to air.

When I'm watching a series on DVD, I don't want to know anything about the episode before I watch it, if it's new to me.

 

[Angel4576]

With "There All the Honor Lies" its actually the main story that I'm not sure about, same with ITSOZ. ANFAW just sounds weird. I'm definately going to watch them, I've just been putting it off for a few days.

In The Shadow of Z'ha'Dum is a huge episode. Along with The Coming of Shadows it's easily one of my favourite episodes of the second season.

Also, once you're past that three episodes, you have Knives, and then five absolute belters to round out the season.

Edit: And Now for a Word is actually a decent episode. There All the Honour Lies - it's ok, not great, but watchable.

 

[Kegg]

Also, I really hope that when you say I skipped the

funniest and best written and important and most memorable episodes of the show's run

that atleast you weren't including Won't Get Fooled Again in that

Actually I was thinking specifically of that episode.

(I'd also argue that The Princess Trilogy/WGFA were in no way important overall, since I got 15 episodes farther than the Trilogy, and it was never brought up, not even once, in any of the episodes).

That Crichton has a Scorpius voice in his head that talks to him is established in the Princess Trilogy, after having been established in Crackers Don't Matter. That this voice is real and a neurochip is established in Won't Get Fooled Again. The Princess Trilogy also introduces the Scarrans (who appear again in Won't Get Fooled Again) and have Crichton make an important choice - choosing to spare Scorpius' life - which has major ramifications.

It's true the main plot of Kiss the Princess is a standalone story, but it includes a lot of arc seeds that are important for the show down the line. Like or hate the trilogy it's in no way tenable to suggest it didn't have a long term impact on the series.

 

[JoeD80]

With "There All the Honor Lies" its actually the main story that I'm not sure about, same with ITSOZ.

?! "In the Shadow of Z'ha'dum" is one of the main keys to the entire story!

 

[kirk55555]

Also, I really hope that when you say I skipped the

funniest and best written and important and most memorable episodes of the show's run

that atleast you weren't including Won't Get Fooled Again in that

Actually I was thinking specifically of that episode.

(I'd also argue that The Princess Trilogy/WGFA were in no way important overall, since I got 15 episodes farther than the Trilogy, and it was never brought up, not even once, in any of the episodes).

That Crichton has a Scorpius voice in his head that talks to him is established in the Princess Trilogy, after having been established in Crackers Don't Matter. That this voice is real and a neurochip is established in Won't Get Fooled Again. The Princess Trilogy also introduces the Scarrans (who appear again in Won't Get Fooled Again) and have Crichton make an important choice - choosing to spare Scorpius' life - which has major ramifications.

It's true the main plot of Kiss the Princess is a standalone story, but it includes a lot of arc seeds that are important for the show down the line. Like or hate the trilogy it's in no way tenable to suggest it didn't have a long term impact on the series.

I guess it would have been better to say that it was not a neccessary Trilogy to watch, in that you won't get lost or anything by skipping it. All of the things that continued from that episode I figured out/was told in the episodes after, for the most part (I will admit that the scarrans were a little confusing, first seeing tone when John was getting the chip removed after having never seeing them before). So, some things were important, but like you said, they had nothing to do with the overall plot of those episodes. So, the trilogy's story had no impact on the series, just some things that could have been stuck into any episode.

Won't Get Fooled Again, however, is a complete waste of time, and is just a horrible episode. If I was forced to watch a bad Farscape episode, I'd take Jeremiah Chricton over WGFA. Heck, I might even take A Human Reaction over WGFA, although AHR only wins because I think a horrible cliched story would be more tolerable then a horrible story with terrible humor.

Ok, before I have every Farscape super fan ready to burn me at the stake, I think I should just stop talking about Farscape

 

[Sindatur]

Ok, before I have every Farscape super fan ready to burn me at the stake, I think I should just stop talking about Farscape

I did try to steer it that direction

Besides, now, we're all busy sharpening our knives up in preparation for your review of In The Shadow of Z'Ha'Dum

 

[kirk55555]

I didn't realise until I was looking on wikipedia, but that guy thats mentioned in the summary for In The Shadow of Z'Ha'Dum, Morden, is the mysterious guy doing all the "favors" for Londo. It should be an interesting episode (and hopefully There All the Honor Lies and Now for A Word are too). I guess a few things about the summaries (TATHL being about a frame up, NFAW being focused on the News and ITSOZ being focused on wether a supposedly dead person is alive or not) just kind of made me want to delay watching them. But, B5 hasn't really been big about doing really standard cliche stuff, so I'm sure they'll all be good.

 

[Nagisa Furukawa]

And There All Honor Lies is a bit meh episode (I like the subplot though), but And Now for a Word is a great experiment and In the Shadow of Z'ha'dum is possibly the most crucial episode of S2 for the overall arc. After that, with the exception of the average Knives (which still has great Londo material) and the messy Divided Loyalties (which is still very important in the overall scheme), the rest of S2 after that is all excellent stuff.

ITSOZ being focused on wether a supposedly dead person is alive or not

Ah, but see, that isn't what it's about. There's no doubt about it; Morden is alive, 100% living, not dead, mortal. The episode is about what it MEANS that this man, who was thought to have died years ago, is alive, both on a very personal level for one of the main character's and on a much grander level that affects the entire fabric of the show's mythology.

 

[Rowan Sjet]

In other words, stop reading the damn summaries!

 

[Angel4576]

Looking at the Wiki summaries, there are only a few spoilers in them, but they're still spoilers I'd try to avoid as a first-time viewer.

From where you are in the series now, I'd take it on faith. If you're still watching the show now then it's not going to let you down in the remainder of the series. There are a few duffers, but generally, the rest of seasons 2, 3 and 4 at least are incredibly strong. Season 5, starts slow but starts gathering pace towards mid-season, and the final 5 or 6 episodes are as good as anything that's gone before.

 

[Booji]

Kirk: You really need to stop reading the summaries immediately. Since you seem to be reading the summaries a few eps ahead of time you are going to have major plot points completely ruined, especially starting in season 3.

 

[Professor Zoom]

Kirk: You really need to stop reading the summaries immediately. Since you seem to be reading the summaries a few eps ahead of time you are going to have major plot points completely ruined, especially starting in season 3.

He's bound and determined to read summaries. It's unfortunate. I say let him spoil himself. He's ruining the experience, you can't ever watch B5 for the first time again. But it's his silly choice. And I think the more people say don't, the more stubborn he's going to be about it. It's his loss.