Fans, what don't you like about VOY?

[Lynx]

^^
What's wrong to be positive? In this time of age in which negativism and an arrogant attitude has become the way of life, then I do think we need positive role models as well.

Kes was unique in many ways. She was friendly and positive. But she could be determined and strong-willed too. She never hesitated to stand up for what she believed was right. The way she was, she was both a complement and a contrast to more "traditional" female main characters like Janeway and Torres.

I think that Kes was like fresh air in a closed room with her attitude and with her ways to solve different problems.

And yes, she could have enlightened the show for 7 years if she'd been allowed to do that. Unfortunately she wasn't, due to greed and narrow-minded thinking from those in charge.

 

[DimesDan]

Still bashing that same tune I see, I guess even the most deluded of minds need something to believe in

Like a few people who have commented on it, I wasn't a big fan of the lack of continuity between episodes, the over abundence of the Technobabble and the hedgehog.

I wasn't a massive fan of the design of the ship either!

 

[Yeoman Randi]

Kes was boring--she never could have hung around for 7 years. Ms. Perky Everything is New I'm So Incredibly Positive That I Can Never Have A Negative Thought just had to go. She was the most one-dimensional character on the whole show. I'm just now rewatching my dvds, and I'm through the first 2 seasons and starting the third, and darling Kes is sending me into sugar shock.

Yes, i agree, she was boring, poorly written and one dimensional. Having a positive character with a positive attitude is one thing, but it isnt enough! Give the lady some dimension, please!

 

[kimc]

Still bashing that same tune I see, I guess even the most deluded of minds need something to believe in

If you don't agree with someone then fine. Saying they have a deluded mind though is flaming. Comments to pm.

 

[Lynx]

Kes was boring--she never could have hung around for 7 years. Ms. Perky Everything is New I'm So Incredibly Positive That I Can Never Have A Negative Thought just had to go. She was the most one-dimensional character on the whole show. I'm just now rewatching my dvds, and I'm through the first 2 seasons and starting the third, and darling Kes is sending me into sugar shock.

Yes, i agree, she was boring, poorly written and one dimensional. Having a positive character with a positive attitude is one thing, but it isnt enough! Give the lady some dimension, please!

Honestly, Kes had a lot more dimension than most of the Star Trek characters.

As for "poorly written", there were flaws here and there but not worse than for any other Voyager character and definitely not worse than what happened to most of the Voyager main characters (except Seven, The Doc and Janeway) in seasons 4-7.

 

[Yeoman Randi]

Kes was boring--she never could have hung around for 7 years. Ms. Perky Everything is New I'm So Incredibly Positive That I Can Never Have A Negative Thought just had to go. She was the most one-dimensional character on the whole show. I'm just now rewatching my dvds, and I'm through the first 2 seasons and starting the third, and darling Kes is sending me into sugar shock.

Yes, i agree, she was boring, poorly written and one dimensional. Having a positive character with a positive attitude is one thing, but it isnt enough! Give the lady some dimension, please!

Honestly, Kes had a lot more dimension than most of the Star Trek characters.

As for "poorly written", there were flaws here and there but not worse than for any other Voyager character and definitely not worse than what happened to most of the Voyager main characters (except Seven, The Doc and Janeway) in seasons 4-7.

Hmm, i have to disagree. I think most of the characters developed over time....(except Neelix and Kes)...i'll have to really sit and think (and write examples up) so that i dont blather on...but i do think they were written way better than Kes.

But, that we disagree is just one of the fun things about Star Trek. Everyone gets something different out of it!

 

[Navaros]

Heck, even in DS9 most of the romance either came out of nowhere or just was the same people beating around the bush for 7 years before saying anything. Sisko was the only one with a decent romantic story.

Odo/Kira is the best-developed romantic story by far out of any Trek product. It was literally developed gradually over several years, and the reasons why Odo doesn't say anything for much of that time are all put on-screen and dealt with over those years. Ie: amazing episodes like 'Crossfire'.

It beats the stuffing out of any Trek 'love interest of the week' story; which is usually all that ever happens.

Sisko/Kasidy was pretty good too, but nowhere near as good or developed as Odo/Kira.

But yes you are right they either 'come out of nowhere' or they are developed gradually, and the 'come out of nowhere' option is never good...so then why complain when they don't come out of nowhere, like Odo/Kira didn't?

Recurring characters means more money, VOY was made to make up for money lost on DS9 meaning Paramount and UPN wouldn't be willing to put up the money for something like that.

Yet, DS9 had better ratings than Voyager...so if Voyager had more of DS9's good qualities like amazing recurring characters, Voyager probably would indeed have made more money than it (Voyager) actually did.

Not sure that DS9 'lost money' though, where are you getting that from?

 

[Anwar]

Nope, Odo/Kira was the two beating around the bush for 7 years and it wasn't even that good of a love story anyways. That's just the DS9 obsessor talking (of course, this is Navaros so it's no surprise). And "Crossfire" wasn't that good either.

Sisko/Kasidy was contrived, had taken on elements, and almost led to the perpetuating of a negative stereotype until Brooks put his foot down. Also boring too.

There are other "Loves of the week" on TOS and TNG that worked out better, but nowadays everything has to be stretched out to 5 years or so to be considered good. It's just a fad.

DS9 didn't have better ratings, in fact the lower ratings was why they made VOY to begin with, and DS9's recurring characters weren't even THAT good compared to ones we'd seen on TNG so it's a moot point. Saying everything about DS9 was "amazing" is just rose-colored glasses.

 

[TheGodBen]

DS9 didn't have better ratings, in fact the lower ratings was why they made VOY to begin with...

Sorry, but I'm just going to introduce some facts into this conversation, I hope you don't mind.

 

[Anwar]

Yeesh, look at that massive plummet right after DS9 premiered. No wonder they wanted another series to make more money.

 

[TheGodBen]

Yes, it's not like as if Voyager had a similar drop in viewers proportional to the amount who watched the pilot episode... oh wait, it did! Both lost 30-32% of their audience.

They must have made loads of money from Voyager too, just look at how it out-rated DS9 almost every week. DS9 is the yellow one, right?

 

[Anwar]

The plummet wasn't so bad for VOY, since it was on a small network at the time that not a lot of people got. Not as bad as it was for DS9 which was on a higher rated and more available network like FOX. VOY did good for where it was, DS9 not so much.

 

[DimesDan]

The plummet wasn't so bad for VOY, since it was on a small network at the time that not a lot of people got. Not as bad as it was for DS9 which was on a higher rated and more available network like FOX. VOY did good for where it was, DS9 not so much.

Now I might be wrong on this, but I'm damn sure that DS9 was not shown on one channel but was shown in syndication like TNG.

 

[Anwar]

It was syndicated, just that I mainly watched it on FOX when it was first airing.

 

[TheGodBen]

The plummet wasn't so bad for VOY, since it was on a small network at the time that not a lot of people got.

That is why Voyager had smaller ratings to begin with, that has absolutely nothing to do with the 30% ratings decline after the pilot episode and you know it. Caretaker was a great pilot episode, the reason for the decline after the pilot is because that's what happens after nearly every pilot episode ever made; people watch the first episode because they're curious and a substantial number of them decide the show isn't for them.

The same thing happened to DS9 with Emissary, the same proportion of viewers who watched the pilot decided not to tune in the following week because they decided the show wasn't for them, it just looks like a bigger drop because Emissary had a larger audience. If you try to claim otherwise then you'll just be showing that you're susceptible to the same double standard that you claim us Niners have.

 

[flemm]

Odo/Kira is the best-developed romantic story by far out of any Trek product.

Agreed. Honestly, it's not even close. Individually, Odo and Kira are among the most fully realized Star Trek characters, and the large amount of significant growth they experience over seven seasons is high even by DS9's standards. A lot of that growth is expressed through their friendship and later romantic involvement, and their love story plays a large role in ending the war with the Dominion, since Odo's experience of being truly loved by a "solid" is part of what eventually convinces the female changeling to stand down. Their relationship is complex, intimate, at times funny, and in the end, truly epic in its consequences.

Also, there are many excellent individual episodes where the Kira/Odo relationship is featured... Necessary Evil, Crossfire, Children of Time, Chimera and Tacking into the Wind come immediately to mind.

 

[Lynx]

The plummet wasn't so bad for VOY, since it was on a small network at the time that not a lot of people got.

That is why Voyager had smaller ratings to begin with, that has absolutely nothing to do with the 30% ratings decline after the pilot episode and you know it. Caretaker was a great pilot episode, the reason for the decline after the pilot is because that's what happens after nearly every pilot episode ever made; people watch the first episode because they're curious and a substantial number of them decide the show isn't for them.

The same thing happened to DS9 with Emissary, the same proportion of viewers who watched the pilot decided not to tune in the following week because they decided the show wasn't for them, it just looks like a bigger drop because Emissary had a larger audience. If you try to claim otherwise then you'll just be showing that you're susceptible to the same double standard that you claim us Niners have.

I think that Voyager suffered from being the third in line of three Star Trek series. Spin-offs never get the same attention as the original.

TNG was something of a new start for Star trek when it started. It was new, fresh but still had most of the premise from TOS to make it interesting for both old TOS fans and new viewers. The writers and producers were fresh on the job and had a lot of inspiration. They were able to come up with good stories, great characters who developed and great actors as well.

DS9 was a spin-off and as such, it was expected that it wouldn't draw as much attention as TNG. It did gain a certain fanbase who became very loyal but never got the same ratings as TNG.

When Voyager came, it was the third in a row which meant that it had to fight with both TNG and DS9 for the attention. The TNG fans were probably still mourning the end of heir show and even if the fans might have watched Voyager occasionally, I guess that the Voyager crew could never compete with their old TNG favorites when it came to their affection. DS9 was still on air and their fans stayed loyal to their show.

It didn't help that Voyager had good characters and a good premise. The main fanbase was already taken.

And that is something which should have been expected by those in charge and also by the fans.

 

[Mirror_Barclay]

What does this mean "too much coffee"?

I dunno. I mean, I understand all the words individually, they just don't make sense strung together in this order.

 

[exodus]

Yet, DS9 had better ratings than Voyager...so if Voyager had more of DS9's good qualities like amazing recurring characters, Voyager probably would indeed have made more money than it (Voyager) actually did.

Not sure that DS9 'lost money' though, where are you getting that from?

Not really true.

Many major cities across the US didn't carry one of the two shows or both were shown against each other so many Trek fans were forced to choose which Trek show they were going to stay loyal to.

Because DS9 was an arc based show, many syndicated neworks refused to order the series to re-show as repeats. Due to that limitation, DS9 failed to make back full syndication rights, something that is very important to studios for future budget.

Due to Voyager being up against Trek itself as well as trying to hold it's own against other shows like Xena, which was grabbing a bigger audience. There was no way to afford the pay rate of a secondary cast, especially after they already had to cut loose Jen Lien just to afford another actress.

If Voyager had the budget, we would have seen more of Speaies 8472 instead of the Borg. However, CGI costs money.

 

[Fish1941]

I loved STAR TREK Voyager. It's my favorite TREK series. Why? Because I feel the show had the best cast. It's writing was not perfect. But neither was the writing for TNG, DS9, TOS and ENT. And yet . . . fans insist upon criticizing VOY for flaws that the other shows also possessed. Is it because the show's lead was a female?