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Fan Film Creation and Critique

Everything needs to be rooted in the classical TOS era. I feel deceived by J.'s failure to mention the movie era. :klingon:

Technically, the movie is rooted in the classical TOS era. I have this idea for a pitch... :shifty:

I always thought an Elite Force fan film would be cool from a first person view with horror elements! :D

I'm surprised someone hasn't tried that yet. More modern uniforms and props should be a bit easier to get, I'd think.

Only struggle I have with TOS era is the way tech is presented.

Also, an Elite Force would be an interesting film.
 
Well, there's a saying I've heard:
"If you say your song is a rock anthem, you'd better mean it."

Anyone can say they've written a rock anthem. It might even have the formulaic hooks and transitions and everything.... then they run it up the flagpole of their target audience (and then some) to see who salutes. If no one salutes, it's probably not a rock anthem.

Same thing with a fan film. If you're going to say: "This will blow away anything that's come before, and will hold up well with any professional production to date." Well, that might be ambition.....but it's still going to depend on how the target audience (and then some) perceive it. You've thrown down the gauntlet... and even though there are some very good tools available to Joe Average Fan Filmmaker that take their fan films light years beyond what's come before, it's still not going to compete with what Hollywood can do, because Hollywood's always going to have the best available tech and resources, and people qualified to do the job that's asked of them (actors, directors, producers, VFX/SFX folk, CG artists, practical model builders, set builders, etc). What we have today are basically hand-me-downs.

When it comes to story, yes, there are some talented, unsigned, amateur scribes out there, but hardly any of them (myself included...and I'm very amateur) can avoid the tropes that seem to be the common complaint of the average Trek fan who partakes of fan productions: Winks, nods, in-jokes, overt references to canonical Trek, fan-service, etc.

I have a philosophy about recording music: "Don't record a song that you cannot reproduce live." If you have a band that has only one qualified singer, don't record the song with four vocal overdubs of harmonies and ad-libs, because the rest of your band cannot replicate that experience in the song. If you have a band with only one guitar player, don't overdub your guitar parts to where it sounds like you have three face-melting guitar players. The audience is going to expect to hear what you put down on the record. Sure, you might get some loud cheers and applause in your castrated live rendition of that song, but it's not going to be near as loud as it would be if you were able to reproduce all your artsy maneuvering live.

Imagine what Hotel California would've come across like if only Don Henley had done all the vocal parts for the album version of the song, and then, when it came time to do it live, his was the only voice singing, and those wonderous background harmonies were very much absent. Folk are going to be disappointed. Thankfully, the band had the personnel necessary to reproduce the experience of the album version for a live setting.

With fan films: Don't let your ego write a check that your humility can't cash.

FF maker Ego: This is going to be a powerhouse production that will easily compete with the best Hollywood produced Trek out there. And, this will be real Star Trek.

Audience: It looked like a fan film. The actors simply recited their lines with no conviction or emotion. The visual effects were hokey. The editing was clearly rushed. There was an inordinate amount of fan service. Oh...and it's all real Star Trek, so where's your basis for comparison?

FF maker Humility: Oh, it was a labor of love. It's just a fan film. We have limitations you know.

Audience: Bullshit! Don't over-hype next time.

FF Maker Ego: Well, clearly you all don't know what it takes to make a fan film, and you just don't get what we're doing!

Audience: Any miniscule semblance of credibility you had just went down the drain.


When you make an overly bold claim that your upcoming fan-made Trek movie is going to be the Second Coming of the Great Bird of the Galaxy, you'd better be able to deliver, because the criticism (for good or ill) is going to be projected at the level for which you're hyping it....especially from those fans who feel they have not had real Star Trek since 1966-69. If you stutter-step even a little in your delivery, that molehill is going to quickly evolve into a mountain.

Now, myself, I usually take such hype claims with a fifth of Tranya. I just want to enjoy what I'm about to see. I go in, knowing that the resources that these fan filmmakers have is sub-par (if not by much) compared to what Hollywood can produce, so my expectations are automatically lowered. If there are good things about the final product, then I like to highlight those aspects. If there's bad things about it, I'll try to give con-con where I can, but I don't want to bash them over the head with: "You did not deliver!" I'll leave that to the folks that actually fell for their hype.

Again, that's why I immediately acknowledge from the get go that my projects will not be movie perfect, and the limitations might clearly be visible. All I can hope for is that folk will enjoy what they see for what it is....not for what it should have been because of my hubris. :)

The scope of what I want to do (I beg forgiveness for the shameless, yet very vague self-promo) is something that (from episode to episode) can run in either the established canon/iconic characters (which will be a very tough road ahead because the expectations will be higher), and original characters which will lighten the load considerably, save for the task of trying to create characters that the viewers can connect with. I can also choose to either use an existing Star Trek ship, or try my hand at creating an original ship. The existing ships (Excelsior class, Miranda class, Constitution class, Galaxy or Sovereign class, K't'inga, B'rel, K'vort, etc) have the advantage of familiarity, both inside and out. Other existing, but lesser utilized ships (Akira, Steamrunner, etc) allow for a balance of some familiarity, and some imaginative license. Completely original ships allow for the most imaginative license, as long as you don't go to the point of "This ship can kick a Sovereign class' ass!"

TL;DR? Go back and read what you glossed over. :D
 
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Well, this thread escalated quickly.

From the beginning, Renegades promised "a professionally produced pilot intended for presentation to CBS." What they delivered was far from being a professionally produced pilot, and, as it turns out, they never had the connections necessary to even present the pilot to CBS.


What you choose to label that is a matter of perspective, I suppose.
 
Well, this thread escalated quickly.

From the beginning, Renegades promised "a professionally produced pilot intended for presentation to CBS." What they delivered was far from being a professionally produced pilot, and, as it turns out, they never had the connections necessary to even present the pilot to CBS.


What you choose to label that is a matter of perspective, I suppose.

The boldfaced is known?
 
I suppose it depends on how much value you place in a person labeled simply as "Top entertainment attorney."

There definitely seems to have been a clear contradiction from the Renegades folks about what they were aiming to do vs. what they were capable of doing.

Harvey has mentioned this before and it was discussed, somewhat here but nothing more really from Tom on the matter.
 
Camouflage is deception. It's not fraud. Optical illusions are deception. They're not fraud. Stage magic is deception. It's not fraud. Misdirection is deception. It's not fraud. Undercover police operations are deception. They are not fraud. Tuvok and Tom Paris were also deceiving Rain Robinson in The Future's End, but they never defrauded her.

All of the above are more than welcome by me in any future Trek series, fan or official. Please, please deceive me. I'm sure some starship can crash in the past, and the crew can start doing undercover crime investigations pro bono, whilst doing all of the above and lying about their identities as well. :p
 
So they would be undercover as... misdirecting stage magicians wearing camo that creates optical illusions?
 
Aye.... for the record, I myself never really said "deceiving" so much as simply "overhyping" which isn't really the same thing. :)

As, I believe, BigJake once pointed out, and (I think) I reiterated was that there's nothing wrong with ambition. Indeed, there's nothing really wrong with feeling that what you have may even actually compete with the pro offerings out there (heh...there's been a few times that I felt my CG refit Enterprise actually held up fairly well with at least some of the better works out there, but that is a perspective view, not objective...that determination can only be made by those who are partaking of my work)... but just make sure that you can bank on the consumer element feeling the same way after viewing it. :)

Oh, and thanks, wtriker. :)
 
It is understandable that a production is criticized upon the levels they have advertised beforehand, but I would ask each viewer to not turn their brain off and see those productions in perspective. It is simply not possible for a production with, lets say half a million for a 90 minute movie to compete with a 200 million studio-backed feature full. Or an official pilot for a studio, which by today probably also has a budget of 10 million or more. Everybody who leaves that out of the equation is just stupid. It is equally stupid of producers to promise such a thing, because it raises expectations into unreachable heights. Sure, you might get lucky and a 500K production actually looks like a 2 or 3 million dollar production, but this requires a enormous amount of production planning, a lot of restriction in terms of amount of actors, sets,vfx - and a damn good and effective script. None of which applies to recent offerings in the fan film community.
 
I disagree. It is undeniable that a component -- however small -- that sharing these films publicly is in part motivated by the desire for public reaction and response.

Productions that claim they are "more" than just fan films, or those who declare they are running a "professional" operation can't just broadcast that out into the ether and expect that when the results fall well below expectation fueled by their own publicity that it will simply be forgotten. It's easy to backpedal your own hype but that doesn't mean you do it.

No, fan films are wonderful endeavors and I enjoy watching them, but I see no need to limit, curtail, or sugar-coat any criticism so long as it's conducive toward constructive commentary on the piece in question.
 
I disagree. It is undeniable that a component -- however small -- that sharing these films publicly is in part motivated by the desire for public reaction and response.

Productions that claim they are "more" than just fan films, or those who declare they are running a "professional" operation can't just broadcast that out into the ether and expect that when the results fall well below expectation fueled by their own publicity that it will simply be forgotten. It's easy to backpedal your own hype but that doesn't mean you do it.

No, fan films are wonderful endeavors and I enjoy watching them, but I see no need to limit, curtail, or sugar-coat any criticism so long as it's conducive toward constructive commentary on the piece in question.

Exactly!
Con-con = good
Drive by assholery = bad
 
Exactly!
Con-con = good
Drive by assholery = bad

My point in the earlier exchange with J. was largely that less vindictiveness in one's attitude ups one's chance of being seen as constructive. So if that's important to a person, they should factor it in. If that doesn't matter to them, of course, that's a whole other thing.

Probably redundant at this point, I guess.
 
I hear ya, BigJake. :)

Pretty much everyone around here that views fan films, do so because they enjoy the heart and soul poured into them, even if the fan films turn out a bit sub-par in some respect(s). They're not opposed to the idea of fans making their own takes on their favorite universe(s).

In other sci-fi forums though, I've definitely run into the jackhole who will say: "I absolutely will not watch fan films, because as far as I'm concerned, if it isn't the real deal, it isn't worth it." (This was the kind of fan of a certain sci-fi property who was overly butt hurt that his favorite sci-fi property didn't see a "proper continuation", and until that day came, he had no use for what a few idealistic fans might churn out, no matter how high a quality project they'd yield.)
 
In other sci-fi forums though, I've definitely run into the jackhole who will say: "I absolutely will not watch fan films, because as far as I'm concerned, if it isn't the real deal, it isn't worth it."

Heh. Then I guess we're lucky to be on a forum where people will at least promise to watch something before taking the same stance. Mostly. :bolian:

Seriously though, it's worth remembering that TrekBBS isn't the worst offender as that kind of toxicity goes. Thanks. :)
 
One of the things I love about ST:C is that their message is essentially "we want to capture the spirit of the original series." So I evaluate their episodes based on that premise. In my opinion (of course), they meet that mission statement. To show that I am biased, I consider ST:C to be the high bar for fan films at this point. Do they have weaknesses? Oh sure, but I've never seen a production, amateur or pro, that doesn't have the occasional snafu or weak point.

I remember being impressed with Starship Exeter. It's still one of my favorites. Then there's Star Trek New Voyages/Phase II, and while their episodes are definitely hit and miss, I enjoy the overall effort and their contributions. The little fan production Aurora is so much fun, I can't help but love it. I'm also a big fan of Starship Excelsior, which also has the added benefit of being an audio program (thus easier to produce, though that doesn't take away from the hard work that goes into it). These fan productions present themselves as fan productions; ones that acknowledge that they will be below what is considered "professional," whether it be due to talent or budget. So I definitely approach them with a more steady hand.

I wanted to like Renegades, I really did. It had Tim Russ, Robert Picardo, Walter Koenig, and so many other Trek alums that I love to pieces. I wanted it to be a smashing success. I wanted their statement about it being professional quality and TV pilot ready to not only be true, but to be a showcase for other productions regarding what one could do with such talent on staff.

It didn't work, and I was profoundly disappointed. I know that every production is going to be a labor of love for so many of the participants. If it would have been just that, I would have probably gone much easier on it; Believe me, I realize it's still a fan production at the end of the day, but it should also be a cautionary tale about what happens when the hype gets to be too much.

I have that concern for Axanar. I enjoyed Prelude, it was a solid effort. The hype for the actual fan production of the film itself, though, is huge. Big names, big production, Facebook and Twitter campaigns, it seems like it's going to be a big deal. I want it to be awesome.

Axanar Indiegogo Site said:
Axanar is the first fully-professional, independent Star Trek film. While some may call it a "fan film" as we are not licensed by CBS, Axanar has professionals working in front and behind the camera, with a fully-professional crew--many of whom have worked on Star Trek itself--who ensure Axanar will be the quality of Star Trek that all fans want to see.

That is an awfully big statement to make, but I hope they come through and knock my socks off, because I will be evaluating the film based on it being a fully professional, independent Star Trek film that simply doesn't have official CBS approval. It's a high bar, and I hope they clear it, because "it's just a fan film" won't work this time, as they've explicitly stated that they are not a fan film. I would personally recommend against saying such things, but they seem pretty confident. We'll see.
 
In other sci-fi forums though, I've definitely run into the jackhole who will say: "I absolutely will not watch fan films, because as far as I'm concerned, if it isn't the real deal, it isn't worth it."

Heh. Then I guess we're lucky to be on a forum where people will at least promise to watch something before taking the same stance. Mostly. :bolian:

Seriously though, it's worth remembering that TrekBBS isn't the worst offender as that kind of toxicity goes. Thanks. :)

No, TrekBBS is far, far, from a toxic place to share ideas. I've been on my share of boards, including fan production ones, and the expectations of some film makers (none here, mind you) is for praise and understanding of their project, regardless of how the final product comes out. Then it turns in to "take my ball and go home" type of a situation when the praise doesn't roll in.

That said, I think that sensitivity for both sides should become the name of the game when it comes to constructive criticism. Often times what can come across as harsh criticism is some times just word choice that gets read in to. Other times, yeah people can be cruel, especially on the internet (:eek:).
 
^^ I mean, I really wasn't trying to set the stage for more Renegades-bashing in anything I said here, but it's an unavoidable fact that they didn't remotely hit the mark they set for themselves. I'm largely able to appreciate it as an earnestly-intended B-movie, which probably strikes them as faint praise. I'm just saying I'm not about to go perpetually lashing them with "You said CBS! Thus will I judge thee!" because I don't see the point. (Especially since they doubtless know what they said far more keenly than any reminder I can provide, I'm sure.) I prefer to review the project within the parameters I already knew it inhabited... wherein it's still underwhelming, but so it goes.

Such also my attitude to Axanar; if it winds up straight-up sucking I'll say so, but I'm not about to be all "You said [such-and-such] and thus shalt thou be judged!" about it, because that would be largely pointless and wouldn't make my views more credible, save from the POV of I-told-you-so, which is harder to sell as "constructive" than other attitudes.

(Sorry to be revisiting this but I felt like our earlier attempt went off track. :))

fireproof78 said:
No, TrekBBS is far, far, from a toxic place to share ideas.

Well... I wouldn't necessarily go that far, I'm just acknowledging that the Internet geekosphere doesn't necessarily set the highest of bars. I'll leave it there. :D
 
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