Excessive Criticism of "STAR TREK VOYAGER"

[locutus101]

It's not paranoid if DS9 fans are really out to get you

Also, since you might not have seen this discussion before, yes that is a foundational argument of VOY being criticized for things DS9 did as well and some how "The Audience (trademark pending)" is ridiculously indulgent of DS9 while being equally unbalanced in it's insults hurled at VOY.

It's a logical fallacy at its core and leads poor conclusions. But the discussions are very entertaining.

I think the problem is that DS9 is a bit more profound in its treatment of the subjects and more consistent. It has many story arcs and doesn't use the reset button the way VOY does. IOW, it has enough redeeming qualities to get away with some of its flaws.

 

[fireproof78]

I think the problem is that DS9 is a bit more profound in its treatment of the subjects and more consistent. It has many story arcs and doesn't use the reset button the way VOY does. IOW, it has enough redeeming qualities to get away with some of its flaws.

You'll get no argument from me on that point.

Personally, I think that if VOY was to stick with a more episodic format, as I have read the studio wanted for syndication purposes on UPN, then a M*A*S*H style show would have been appropriate, with character change coming, but in ways that become more profound if the series is watched from beginning to end.

Regardless, VOY used the reset button and that's very frustrating when the premise is that they are stuck and there are consequences.

 

[Red Shirt]

I watched the first two seasons of Voyager when it originally aired. Assuming the series wouldn't be abruptly cancelled the final outcome would be they made it back so I lost interest with the premise of the show.

 

[LJones41]

I think the problem is that DS9 is a bit more profound in its treatment of the subjects and more consistent. It has many story arcs and doesn't use the reset button the way VOY does.

You're going to get an argument from me. The reset button was used in "The Year of Hell", because some alien was constantly changing the timeline in order to bring his wife back from the dead. Was there another time travel story in which the series used the reset button? The reset button wasn't used in "Endgame", because Admiral Kathryn Janeway deliberately changed the timeline. The latter was not reset to its original path.

All of the Trek shows have featured profound writing. All of them. Not just DS9.

But in this case, I simply don't believe that the captain being a woman didn't have a lot to do with the weird Voyager hate

I have to disagree with you on this. I have my own criticism of "Voyager" and other Trek shows. But this is the only one in the franchise that has received an excessive amount of criticism from fans. And this is the only Trek show in which the lead's gender has been featured . . . excessively by many fans. Many fans.

 

[locutus101]

You'll get no argument from me on that point.

Personally, I think that if VOY was to stick with a more episodic format, as I have read the studio wanted for syndication purposes on UPN, then a M*A*S*H style show would have been appropriate, with character change coming, but in ways that become more profound if the series is watched from beginning to end.

Regardless, VOY used the reset button and that's very frustrating when the premise is that they are stuck and there are consequences.

That's the problem, it was a if they had a repair station following them around.

 

[LJones41]

That's the problem, it was a if they had a repair station following them around.

Again . . . another comment that makes no sense to me. What do you mean? Did you expect every Voyager episode to be exactly one week apart?

 

[locutus101]

Again . . . another comment that makes no sense to me. What do you mean? Did you expect every Voyager episode to be exactly one week apart?

With twenty six episodes a year, they must be about two weeks apart on average.

 

[Guy Gardener]

LJones, there are two different reset buttons that people talk about here, and you're supposed to instinctually tell the difference without much context.

Literally where they fold time back altering reality is the first, or the other is figuratively where some aspect or widget is said, did, demonstrated, learned or expressed by a writer or producer in the script, and then next week it's as if whatever happened last week didn't happen, because the producers don't care and the actual writers don't know each other and have no idea what's happening next week or what happened last week when they wrote their week secluded in a bubble, unless they also happen to be a producer who is taking notice.

Examples...

Tom loves boats in 30 days. The ocean is the best thing ever to Tom, but he never mentioned the water ever again for the next three years.

Neelix needs nano probe injections for the rest of his life after he dies in mortal coil. Never mentioned again.

The cloaked Cardassian ship present during Caretaker, never mentioned again.

Janeway's lizard babies. Never mentioned again.

Naomi died and replaced with a clone, never mentioned again.

Prime Factors, Tuvok and the entire crew betray Janeway, break the prime directive, and a year later, Tuvok gets a promotion.

5 Equinox crewmen join the ships crew. Never mentioned again.

In Persistence of Vision (or Bliss?) Chakotay tells B'Elanna that he has always loved her, and then they make out in a dream. Never mentioned again.

In Alliances Janeway makes Alliances, and then shits on those alliances, and blames everyone else, and then acts like she didn't almost make friends with anyone, and that the universe is still against her for the next 6 years.

In The Chute Harry tried to kill Tom. Sure he forgave him in the episode, but there had to be some pee in Harry's coffee for the rest of his life, right? Never mentioned again.

In Remember B'Elanna is given the life experiences of another person, and a genocide. Never mentioned again.

Neelix deals drugs in Fair Trade. Never mentioned again.

Tom and Vorrik got married polygamously with B'Elanna in Blood fever. Never mentioned again.

This is both figurative and literal. Kes knows the Krenims temporal torpedo frequencies. Never mentioned again, until Seven figures it out herself after Anorax has altered the timeline hundreds of times.

Chakotay was given another persons memories and racism in Nemesis. Never mentioned again.

The Doctor and Seven had a baby in One. The baby fell in love romantically with Seven. Never mentioned again.

B'Elanna goes through a cutting phase in Extreme Risk... Although that connects with her flatlining fetish in Barge of the Dead and the attempt to mutilate her baby later on in Lineage maybe? Although after those three "moments" of mental instability, no one thinks to fix her brain or demote the woman? That's some bad captaining.

Dragons teeth. The Vadwaar were painted as a recurring baddie... They were mentioned once more a year later but never seen.

Memorial, the entire crew were given extra memories that were never mentioned again.

400 klingons were living on Voyager for weeks to months in Prophecy. The following week in Void no one mentioned that it had ever happened, or the omnipresent lilac musk.

Workforce, the entire crew were given new memories... It's possible that everytime they were all given new false memories that the new memories crumbled and faded instantly like in The Killing Game, but in an Episode like Remember, B'Elanna had her old memories side by side with these implants forever. Also in Killing Game and Workforce, it is a miracle that no one got preggers despite spending a month or longer as other people who were possibly less responsible about who they were boning and what precautions they were using while boning the wrong people.

...

The major trauma on the viewer from the figurative reset button used by the producers is all the guest stars who are part of the crew since Caretaker, who are only ever seen in one episode. 170 episodes, and only a handfull of actors were in more than three episodes of Voyager despite being claimed briefly as bestest friends or romantic interests.

"Sigh"

 

[locutus101]

Yeah, that's pretty much it.

 

[Tosk]

The cloaked Cardassian ship present during Caretaker, never mentioned again.

The what when?

 

[Guy Gardener]

In the Voyager Conspiracy.

SEVEN: The Captain ordered Commander Tuvok to destroy the array. He fired two tricobalt devices. Are those weapons normally carried on Federation Starships?
CHAKOTAY: No.
SEVEN: Yet they were part of Voyager's arsenal. Why?
CHAKOTAY: I can't explain that.
SEVEN: I can. Neither phasers nor torpedoes are capable of creating a tear in subspace. A tricobalt device is. As Tuvok detonated the device, a cloaked ship locked on to one of the array's tetryon reactors and pushed it through the tear into subspace, protecting it from the blast and hiding it from Voyager's sensors. But the Captain and Tuvok knew exactly where it was going. Once Voyager left the area, the reactor was retrieved and began a similar journey, carried by a series of vessels until it was finally delivered to Mister Tash.
CHAKOTAY: Who used it to build the catapult.
SEVEN: He was waiting here for Voyager, and for the final phase of the mission.
CHAKOTAY: Which is what, exactly?

Seven's conclusions were batshit, but we can suppose that the raw data was real.

 

[locutus101]

In the Voyager Conspiracy.
Seven's conclusions were batshit, but we can suppose that the raw data was real.

The cloaked ship may have been part of Seven's conclusions and not of the raw data.

 

[Guy Gardener]

We saw saw the cloaked ship.

Either it's from a camera view no one checked before that episode, or Seven rendered and animated it herself to justify her theories.

So, yes and no, or maybe.

Voyager is about a whole lot of grey because of how uncarefully it was made.

Anyone claiming black or white is usually an asshole, or having a laugh.

 

[locutus101]

We saw saw the cloaked ship.

Either it's from a camera view no one checked before that episode, or Seven rendered and animated it herself to justify her theories.

So, yes and no, or maybe.

Voyager is about a whole lot of grey because of how uncarefully it was made.

Anyone claiming black or white is usually an asshole, or having a laugh.

Or an asshole having a laugh.

 

[Tosk]

Well that explains it. I'm pretty familiar with early VOY, later VOY not so much. So there was no Cardie ship really there in Caretaker, only placed there retroactively (maybe) in season 7.

 

[locutus101]

Well that explains it. I'm pretty familiar with early VOY, later VOY not so much. So there was no Cardie ship really there in Caretaker, only placed there retroactively (maybe) in season 7.

Well, there was one in the episode but it was neither cloaked nor in the delta quadrant.

 

[Tracy Trek]

Tom loves boats in 30 days. The ocean is the best thing ever to Tom, but he never mentioned the water ever again for the next three years.

Ok, he never mentioned the ocean again. But he had to live with the consequences of the rules he broke in that episode for the next 2 years.

Neelix needs nano probe injections for the rest of his life after he dies in mortal coil. Never mentioned again.

Is there an exact quote from the show that says he has to take the injections for the rest of his life? Because I thought it was only until his cells stabilized. If it was for the rest of his life, I guess he was out of luck when he left Voyager since Seven and Icheb were going in the opposite direction. For that matter, all those people on the irradiated planet in Friendship One wouldn't they need nanoprobes for the rest of their lives. Did Janeway shoot a nanoprobe torpedo into their atmosphere?

 

[Anwar]

You've changed it now it sucks, as with VOY perhaps you have the opposite It's the same now it sucks. We the viewer can be a very fickle bunch and can be very hard to please.

By the time VOY came on, the audience was effectively unpleasable.

For some certain elements of VOY didn't work as well as they thought they could and the production team on VOY didn't help matters with seemingly an endless suplly of photon's and shuttles despite saying they were resource rationed or couldn't replace torpedeos. Yes circumstances can change but it's a disservice to the viewer not say they now have this ability instead of it magically appearing when it was plot convineant. That is't to say VOY is alone in doing that.

Then maybe VOY shouldn't have been singled out for this sort of abuse.

And yes the mobile nature of the show meant it couldn't to the political stuff that DSN did but it still could have done more with the ship/crew itself as that was more or less an unchaging element of the show. I never really got the impression that these people thought they and might never see home again. Now perhaps that's me and others got that impression that these people might never see home again from watching the show.

Problem was, this wasn't a new situation. TOS and TNG had already done it and resolved it with minimal fuss so VOY making it out to be some big problem when it wasn't before caused an internal inconsistency.

Hell, Star Trek Beyond did the whole "Lost Ship" plot and resolved it in only one movie.

As I've said before "Living Witness" was one of VOY best episode that doesn't mean I can't critise it for seemingly contradicting an episode earlier that season haevily impyling that can't back-up the EMH. You want it it work better, then you drop a line in an episode in between at the end of a Log entry to say they have found a way to backup the EMH.

That Living Witness gets ripped into like this but Best of Both Worlds' has all its plot holes forgiven (and it has some big ones) is simply a sign of that fickleness you mentioned.

 

[tomalak301]

That Living Witness gets ripped into like this but Best of Both Worlds' has all its plot holes forgiven (and it has some big ones) is simply a sign of that fickleness you mentioned.

If there is one thing I don't like about the Voyager criticism it's the need to pick it apart with "Plot Holes" while the other series tend to get a free pass. I love this series, I love the characters, and honestly, I look past the plot holes all the time. Does the show have it's problems? Sure, but so does all the other series. It just feels like Voyager get shit on the most.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Ok, he never mentioned the ocean again. But he had to live with the consequences of the rules he broke in that episode for the next 2 years.

Is there an exact quote from the show that says he has to take the injections for the rest of his life? Because I thought it was only until his cells stabilized. If it was for the rest of his life, I guess he was out of luck when he left Voyager since Seven and Icheb were going in the opposite direction. For that matter, all those people on the irradiated planet in Friendship One wouldn't they need nanoprobes for the rest of their lives. Did Janeway shoot a nanoprobe torpedo into their atmosphere?

There's always a quote from the show.

EMH: His tissue began rejecting the nanoprobes, causing spontaneous necrosis throughout his body.
SEVEN: We modified the nanoprobes to compensate and it appears to be working. Neelix is stable, for now.
JANEWAY: How do we know this won't happen again?
EMH: We don't. I've designed a monitor for Neelix to wear that will alert us at the first sign of necrosis, and we'll continue with the daily injections. Beyond that, I'm afraid it's a matter of maintenance. He may have to live with this condition for the rest of his life. He wants to speak with you, Commander.

Earlier Seven thinks he'll just need a few injections till he's proper alive again. However, Neelix's body is shit or more permanently damaged than she first thought, which turns into a new way of life, not a miracle.