Excessive Criticism of "STAR TREK VOYAGER"

[Lance]

I'm quoting this from another thread because I think its worth bringing up here.

What gets me is that, as I understand it, there are staff meetings when they outline, at least, where the show is now, where they want everything to go, and how the characters figure into all of this. Tom, B'Elanna and Seven are really the only characters who seem to have had any forethought applied to them. For everyone else, it's just Busy Work, until they can make it home. This is so hard to understand, because it's chaotic and it leads to mischief. Characters like Kes end up just having a bunch of shit thrown at the wall, to see what sticks, maybe ... and nothing does. THE GIFT falls in line with this, very much.

You know, this can be said to be sorta/kinda true about some of the other shows as well, but its another thing that I think was a genuine flaw about Voyager: the characters all felt like extensions of their roles on the ship rather than people, maybe not as bad as Sulu and Uhura were in TOS, but definitely more so than TNG's and DS9's characters who felt more alive and distinct. With Voyager it sometimes felt like what we were really watching was 'Star Trek: Generic', about the adventures of the USS Generic, and its cast of generic characters: The Captain, The First Officer, The Helmsman, The Vulcan, The Young Guy, The Chief Engineer, The Goofy Alien, The Empath, and The Synthetic Lifeform (doubling as The Chief Medical Officer). Seriously, at times it felt like very little more thought was put into them by the writers than that. 7 of 9 was, for better or worse, often imbued with her own character at least, above and beyond her 'function' aboard the ship. But too often in later seasons it felt like the other characters were left flailing around looking for some purpose beyond saying "Deflectors up", "Course set", or "Hailing Frequencies Open".

 

[LJones41]

I'm quoting this from another thread because I think its worth bringing up here.



You know, this can be said to be sorta/kinda true about some of the other shows as well, but its another thing that I think was a genuine flaw about Voyager: the characters all felt like extensions of their roles on the ship rather than people, maybe not as bad as Sulu and Uhura were in TOS, but definitely more so than TNG's and DS9's characters who felt more alive and distinct. With Voyager it sometimes felt like what we were really watching was 'Star Trek: Generic', about the adventures of the USS Generic, and its cast of generic characters: The Captain, The First Officer, The Helmsman, The Vulcan, The Young Guy, The Chief Engineer, The Goofy Alien, The Empath, and The Synthetic Lifeform (doubling as The Chief Medical Officer). Seriously, at times it felt like very little more thought was put into them by the writers than that. 7 of 9 was, for better or worse, often imbued with her own character at least, above and beyond her 'function' aboard the ship. But too often in later seasons it felt like the other characters were left flailing around looking for some purpose beyond saying "Deflectors up", "Course set", or "Hailing Frequencies Open".

Hmmmmm . . . disagree.

 

[locutus101]

You know, this can be said to be sorta/kinda true about some of the other shows as well, but its another thing that I think was a genuine flaw about Voyager: the characters all felt like extensions of their roles on the ship rather than people, maybe not as bad as Sulu and Uhura were in TOS, but definitely more so than TNG's and DS9's characters who felt more alive and distinct. With Voyager it sometimes felt like what we were really watching was 'Star Trek: Generic', about the adventures of the USS Generic, and its cast of generic characters: The Captain, The First Officer, The Helmsman, The Vulcan, The Young Guy, The Chief Engineer, The Goofy Alien, The Empath, and The Synthetic Lifeform (doubling as The Chief Medical Officer). Seriously, at times it felt like very little more thought was put into them by the writers than that. 7 of 9 was, for better or worse, often imbued with her own character at least, above and beyond her 'function' aboard the ship. But too often in later seasons it felt like the other characters were left flailing around looking for some purpose beyond saying "Deflectors up", "Course set", or "Hailing Frequencies Open".

I agree. Seven is really the only evolving character. There's also a little bit of the relation between Torres and Paris. That only seems to move in spurts. And then there's all the others that kinda feel like stock characters. Add to that the reset button being hit pretty much at the end of each episode and you have Voyager in a nutshell.

 

[WebLurker]

I agree. Seven is really the only evolving character. There's also a little bit of the relation between Torres and Paris. That only seems to move in spurts. And then there's all the others that kinda feel like stock characters. Add to that the reset button being hit pretty much at the end of each episode and you have Voyager in a nutshell.

The Doctor evolved over the course of the show, too.

 

[locutus101]

The Doctor evolved over the course of the show, too.

Not really, he has a few mishaps but hits the reset button at the end of each of them, just like the rest of the crew. There is some evolving during season seven, almost at the end of it actually, but that's pretty much it. Otherwise it's pretty much the same character with the same complaints and the same flaws all along.

 

[fireproof78]

Not really, he has a few mishaps but hits the reset button at the end of each of them, just like the rest of the crew. There is some evolving during season seven, almost at the end of it actually, but that's pretty much it. Otherwise it's pretty much the same character with the same complaints and the same flaws all along.

I tend to agree, but I think the Doctor had some truly great moments, and grew as a character in many places. I think his interaction with Seven of Nine (since she became one of the main focus characters).

I think that Paris and Torres also are a great relationship that grows a bit overtime, but they don't quite the development that I like. However, Tom does get some great moments as well.

While I sometimes struggle with VOY's use of the reset button, there are some differences in the characters that I can appreciate. Though, the lack of flaws I will agree with as well.

 

[locutus101]

I tend to agree, but I think the Doctor had some truly great moments, and grew as a character in many places. I think his interaction with Seven of Nine (since she became one of the main focus characters).

I think that Paris and Torres also are a great relationship that grows a bit overtime, but they don't quite the development that I like. However, Tom does get some great moments as well.

While I sometimes struggle with VOY's use of the reset button, there are some differences in the characters that I can appreciate. Though, the lack of flaws I will agree with as well.

Yes, you're right about all of this.

 

[Lance]

I should probably qualify what I mean.

(Communication? "Hailing Frequencies Open.")

It's very easy to imagine that Voyager was conceived as the most generic Trek. On purpose.

Having a Vulcan in the cast so they can do all those generic 'Vulcan stories', a Klingon in the cast so they can do all those generic 'Klingon stories', a half-human in the cast so they can do all those half-human stories, a synthetic lifeform so they can do the "What Does It Mean To Be Human?" stories, a wet Ensign to do all the 'Learning the ropes' stories, a first officer who exists mainly to fill a seat on the bridge, and a Captain whose characterization flip-flops between Soldier and Diplomat, able to fill either the Kirk or Picard roles depending on which the script requires her to be.

It's like the producers had a checklist of things that Star Trek "does", and they created the characters to fill that brief. Rather than, you know, coming at them from the point of view of 'What Can We Do Differently?'.

I am of the belief that any individuality these characters exhibited in 7 seasons was down to the skill of the actors, rather than anything inherent to them on the page.

The only characters who truly break new ground are Neelix (because Trek hadn't had a wacky alien chef before), and Seven (who, as a Borg, could cover 'What Does It Mean To Be Human?' in a way that was slightly different to The Doctor, mainly because she was still more Borg than Human.) Although in the latter we still ended up with her filling the 'stoic, unemotional' role going all the way back to TOS.

Say what some might about them, TNG, DS9 and ENT all had characters that were something more than just their functions to the script. For the most part. I'm a fan of Voyager, but I've never felt that to be the case with Kathy's Krew.

 

[TonyLeung82]

But there are many things I don`t like (and so I can understand why people are criticising Voyager.)
- the reset button- many loosing ends like the Borg baby - the crew of the Equinox, where are they?

In fact one guy of the rescued guys from Equinox did appear one more time. It was Brian Sofin, and he appeared in "Repentance" again if Memory Alpha stands correct:
http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Brian_Sofin

 

[locutus101]

In fact one guy of the rescued guys from Equinox did appear one more time. It was Brian Sofin, and he appeared in "Repentance" again if Memory Alpha stands correct:
http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Brian_Sofin

I wonder if they were aware that they were using someone from the Equinox. Chances are they only used him because he didn't have a speaking part.

 

[TonyLeung82]

I wonder if they were aware that they were using someone from the Equinox. Chances are they only used him because he didn't have a speaking part.

I dont really care about the reasons, why he in particular was used from the producers to do something in an episode (speaking part / non-speaking part), this is a "real-life-problem". I care about the fact, that everybody who complained about this reset button in case of the old crew of the Equinox is wrong, because one guy did appear afterwards. This is was counts in my opinion.

 

[locutus101]

I dont really care about the reasons, why he in particular was used from the producers to do something in an episode (speaking part / non-speaking part), this is a "real-life-problem". I care about the fact, that everybody who complained about this reset button in case of the old crew of the Equinox is wrong, because one guy did appear afterwards. This is was counts in my opinion.

I don't think so. If they had used for example the guy that Janeway tortured, that would be one thing but this could as well be a coincidence, as it probably was.

 

[TonyLeung82]

I don't think so. If they had used for example the guy that Janeway tortured, that would be one thing but this could as well be a coincidence, as it probably was.

It was the same actor with the same name of Brian Sofin who received no credit for his appearances. As long as the informations of memory alpha are correct of course. So i do not think it was a coincidence.
It is the same problem as with actor of Ayala, Tarik Ergin. He is not creditet, but everybody of us know that he is Ayala. Of course Ayala appeard way more often than Brian Sofin, thats true. But Sofin was named before (in Equinox) and now the same actor appears again the same role without any costume (for example an alien), of course he plays Brian Sofin.

 

[locutus101]

It was the same actor with the same name of Brian Sofin who received no credit for his appearances. As long as the informations of memory alpha are correct of course. So i do not think it was a coincidence.
It is the same problem as with actor of Ayala, Tarik Ergin. He is not creditet, but everybody of us know that he is Ayala. Of course Ayala appeard way more often than Brian Sofin, thats true. But Sofin was named before (in Equinox) and now the same actor appears again the same role without any costume (for example an alien), of course he plays Brian Sofin.

Personally, I think it's lousy. If they had used the other guy (the guy tortured by Janeway that is) that would have been significant because people would remember him, but this guy, I didn't recognize him and I doubt that a great percentage of people did.

 

[TonyLeung82]

Personally, I think it's lousy. If they had used the other guy (the guy tortured by Janeway that is) that would have been significant because people would remember him, but this guy, I didn't recognize him and I doubt that a great percentage of people did.

I can not deny that, you are right. I also would personally like to have the blond woman (forgot the name) or the tortured guy. But you can not forget, that 3 other guys were with them rescued from the Equinox. I did not recognize it myself until today with the appearing of Brian Sofin, and i watched the series from the beginning.
I just wanted to make clear, that the statement "You have never seen or heard something from the 5 people from the Equinox" is not correct in some way.

 

[locutus101]

I can not deny that, you are right. I also would personally like to have the blond woman (forgot the name) or the tortured guy. But you can not forget, that 3 other guys were with them rescued from the Equinox. I did not recognize it myself until today with the appearing of Brian Sofin, and i watched the series from the beginning.
I just wanted to make clear, that the statement "You have never seen or heard something from the 5 people from the Equinox" is not correct in some way.

Fair enough.

 

[M.A.C.O.]

VOY did have a lot of things that merit criticism.

Off the top of my head:

Scores of reset buttons.

Overuse of the Borg.

The show focusing primarily on Janeway, Seven and the Doctor from Season 4-7. While Chak, Tuvok and Neelix faded into the background.

Uninteresting support characters. Harry Kim, B'Ellanna, Chakotay, looking at you.

Junk physics, biology and evolution.

A thousand and one different uses for the main deflector.

The Starfleet/Maqui conflict being a non issue after the first few episodes of the 1st season.

Janeway's decisions (good and bad) always working out and going unchallenged, despite how unhinged, unethical and sometimes just plain dangerous they were.

The half-baked Kazon and the evolutionary dead-end the Ocampa.

Too many Holodeck and time travel episodes.

VOY being TNG-lite but without the likeable cast of TNG.

VOY never being strapped for resources and the ship always looking like it was fresh out of dry dock. This fact does ruin the whole lost in space, fighting to get home on a 70 year journey thing.

 

[locutus101]

VOY did have a lot of things that merit criticism.

Off the top of my head:

Scores of reset buttons.

Overuse of the Borg.

The show focusing primarily on Janeway, Seven and the Doctor from Season 4-7. While Chak, Tuvok and Neelix faded into the background.

Uninteresting support characters. Harry Kim, B'Ellanna, Chakotay, looking at you.

Junk physics, biology and evolution.

A thousand and one different uses for the main deflector.

The Starfleet/Maqui conflict being a non issue after the first few episodes of the 1st season.

Janeway's decisions (good and bad) always working out and going unchallenged, despite how unhinged, unethical and sometimes just plain dangerous they were.

The half-baked Kazon and the evolutionary dead-end the Ocampa.

Too many Holodeck and time travel episodes.

VOY being TNG-lite but without the likeable cast of TNG.

VOY never being strapped for resources and the ship always looking like it was fresh out of dry dock. This fact does ruin the whole lost in space, fighting to get home on a 70 year journey thing.

Yes, and I can easily find a few mores... That's what's really telling about this show. Each episode has so many flaws, it would take longer than the episode lasts to find them all.

 

[MacLeod]

VOY did have a lot of things that merit criticism.

Off the top of my head:

Scores of reset buttons.

Overuse of the Borg.

The show focusing primarily on Janeway, Seven and the Doctor from Season 4-7. While Chak, Tuvok and Neelix faded into the background.

Uninteresting support characters. Harry Kim, B'Ellanna, Chakotay, looking at you.

Junk physics, biology and evolution.

A thousand and one different uses for the main deflector.

The Starfleet/Maqui conflict being a non issue after the first few episodes of the 1st season.

Janeway's decisions (good and bad) always working out and going unchallenged, despite how unhinged, unethical and sometimes just plain dangerous they were.

The half-baked Kazon and the evolutionary dead-end the Ocampa.

Too many Holodeck and time travel episodes.

VOY being TNG-lite but without the likeable cast of TNG.

VOY never being strapped for resources and the ship always looking like it was fresh out of dry dock. This fact does ruin the whole lost in space, fighting to get home on a 70 year journey thing.

Some of the other shows are guilty of those or similar things as well. And I think VOY clocke up only a couple more time-travel episodes than DSN did. So perhaps it's not so much the number of episodes but what they did with the episode. And of course we as viewers bring our own perspective for those that had watched TOS/TNG and DSN some episodes might seem to retread familiar ground so in your minds eye you are instantly comparing the episode to which ever episode is most similar in another show. Whilst for those for who VOY was their introduction don't have that baggage so to speak.

Don't get me wrong I'm not giving the makers of VOY a pass, and yes some of the issues were down to network interference. And VOY did have some limited contunity and some character growth, but I think many think they could have been greater character development, greater continuity. And as I said before the other Trek shows were just as guilty at times on continuity, but when VOY was being produced it was perhaps the early days of audiance tastes changing to more arc/heavy continuity form. And the excuse that has sometimes been used is that you can't expect audiances to remember something from X weeks ago, treats the audiance as idiots and that's what the teaser is for "Previously on ..."

 

[Guy Gardener]

An episode about a murderer seeking redemption, and Brian doesn't say a word about how he's still on punishment rations?

I wonder if the actor, Mark Rogerson, remarked on the irony?

Good lord, Brian was on a Time Travel mission during Counterpoint too?