Evidence of SNW being a possible alternate timeline from TOS

[TRON JA307020]

So I thought this would be fun. Lots of fans talk about inconsistencies SNW vs what we saw and heard in TOS. I've noticed several myself. I have a few that really stand out and its hard to not notice.

The first obvious one is Khan. He clearly would now be an adult by the time of the first contact with Vulcans. So the eugenics war is now just before or part of World War III. It is stated in the episode. It is stated in the episode Tomorrow and Tomorrow that all the romulan time travel changed the timeline and that's why khan was no longer born earlier. Picard season 2 Data's ancestor an earlier soong is looking at a file folder called the khan project in the 2020s. So this timeline could have been an alternate past that Q sent Picard to. So its unknown if this had anything to do with the time change.

Could the khan time change explain all the inconsistencies we've seen in SNW/STD amd STP. Discoveries more advanced tech, uniform changes, the Khan project in STP, Spocks romances with Chapel and La' An, Kirk being in the enterprise much earlier and participating in their adventures, Spock mind melding with Kirk well before Dagger of the Mind when he stated to McCoy that it was his first time melding with a human.

I find this subject interesting. They have left plenty of things in the story to give us evidence of an alternate time line to TOS.

Also is the TOS we all watched the alternate timeline. I doubt it since Berman trek had visuals and call backs directly matching TOS. But I think it might be fun to explore the idea.

Thoughts? Anything I missed that might point to an alternate timeline?

 

[HotRod]

So the eugenics war is now just before or part of World War III.

The Eugenics War was always World War III, it was stated directly in "Space Seed" that it was the last or Earth's World Wars. It was TNG that made the war a 21st century conflict right from their very first episode and further cemented it in place with First Contact.

Spocks romances with Chapel and La' An, Kirk being in the enterprise much earlier and participating in their adventures,

None of this contradicts anything seen in TOS.

 

[TRON JA307020]

The Eugenics War was always World War III, it was stated directly in "Space Seed" that it was the last or Earth's World Wars. It was TNG that made the war a 21st century conflict right from their very first episode and further cemented it in place with First Contact.

None of this contradicts anything seen in TOS.

II think it all contradicts TOS. The best evidence we have is romulan interference in khan. Its clearly states the timeline was altered.

 

[HotRod]

II think it all contradicts TOS. The best evidence we have is romulan interference in khan. Its clearly states the timeline was altered.

Ok? Every example of time travel alters the timeline. Call it fate, destiny, or whatever you want, but the timeline always seems to correct itself.*



*Except in cases where an alternate universe is specifically created, such as the Kelvin timeline.

 

[Sketcher]

Might as well consider Wrath of Khan is set in an alternate timeline while we're at it.

 

[Starflight]

Also is the TOS we all watched the alternate timeline. I doubt it since Berman trek had visuals and call backs directly matching TOS. But I think it might be fun to explore the idea.

This is the more fun angle to come at it from I think; TOS and TNG never feel like the same universe to me. Same for Voyager, which can't really be taking place in the same universe as TNG - Starfleet feels like two different organisations in both shows, the whole texture of the universe feels different, etc.

And then within that distinction, early TNG doesn't feel like the same setting as later TNG to me!

 

[F. King Daniel]

Might as well consider Wrath of Khan is set in an alternate timeline while we're at it.

This is key. Where do we draw the line in inconsistencies? James R. Kirk? Yellow uniform Uhura? Brownface Khan from TOS vs WoK?

That said, you COULD use time travelling Romulan agents as an excuse with SNW and TOS, but it all gets very messy when Lower Decks crossed over and didn't suggest anything was "wrong" in the timeline. Also you have clips of "The Menagerie", "Unification II" and others in Discovery.

It's easier, IMHO, just going with the writer's intent: It's a kinda sorta quasi modernized rebootish prequel to TOS where it's all fine so long as you keep in mind it's a television show first and an intricate future history like 15th or 16th.

 

[TRON JA307020]

Ok? Every example of time travel alters the timeline. Call it fate, destiny, or whatever you want, but the timeline always seems to correct itself.*


?a p
*Except in cases where an alternate universe is specifically created, such as the Kelvin timeline.

There are lots of things in SNW that future writers can clearly call it an alternate timeline to TOS. Maybe the SNW writers did it on purpose. Maybe they were planning to flesh put their universe past TOS and write everything their way and make it a total reboot.

This is key. Where do we draw the line in inconsistencies? James R. Kirk? Yellow uniform Uhura? Brownface Khan from TOS vs WoK?

That said, you COULD use time travelling Romulan agents as an excuse with SNW and TOS, but it all gets very messy when Lower Decks crossed over and didn't suggest anything was "wrong" in the timeline. Also you have clips of "The Menagerie", "Unification II" and others in Discovery.

It's easier, IMHO, just going with the writer's intent: It's a kinda sorta quasi modernized rebootish prequel to TOS where it's all fine so long as you keep in mind it's a television show first and an intricate future history like 15th or 16th.

Just some of the inconsistency holes get bigger and more obvious with STD and SNW. Especially with the look of the shows. In the old days inconsistencies just weren't as blaring. I think it was a real mistake to go back and do prequels. A post TNG show woukd have been better. Yeah I know we got Picard but it wasn't very much like standard star trek until the 3rd season. What would have been fun is them going 70 to 80 years past the late 24th. 2460 would have been great and free them from any canon. It would have been so far where the tech could have realistically advanced in 80 years unlike what we got in the 32nd century. N

 

[F. King Daniel]

There are lots of things in SNW that future writers can clearly call it an alternate timeline to TOS. Maybe the SNW writers did it on purpose. Maybe they were planning to flesh put their universe past TOS and write everything their way and make it a total reboot.




Just some of the inconsistency holes get bigger and more obvious with STD and SNW. Especially with the look of the shows. In the old days inconsistencies just weren't as blaring. I think it was a real mistake to go back and do prequels. A post TNG show woukd have been better. Yeah I know we got Picard but it wasn't very much like standard star trek until the 3rd season. What would have been fun is them going 70 to 80 years past the late 24th. 2460 would have been great and free them from any canon. It would have been so far where the tech could have realistically advanced in 80 years unlike what we got in the 32nd century. N

How does TOS, which travelled the the edge and rim of the galaxy more than once within 5 years (half a galaxy in each instance), co-exist with Voyager where Starfleet's fastest ship would take 70 years to get home? But then they cross over in "Flashback", ignoring the massive plot-breaking inconsistency.

You're really just saying it looks modern and you personally don't like it. We need to establish a baseline of what continuity is okay and which is too far. Does Voyager exist in the same world as TOS? There's a fundamental break. How do you, as a fan, reconcile it? Does it bother you when you watch? Were you even aware of it?

 

[Finn]

So I thought this would be fun. Lots of fans talk about inconsistencies SNW vs what we saw and heard in TOS. I've noticed several myself. I have a few that really stand out and its hard to not notice.

The first obvious one is Khan. He clearly would now be an adult by the time of the first contact with Vulcans. So the eugenics war is now just before or part of World War III. It is stated in the episode. It is stated in the episode Tomorrow and Tomorrow that all the romulan time travel changed the timeline and that's why khan was no longer born earlier. Picard season 2 Data's ancestor an earlier soong is looking at a file folder called the khan project in the 2020s. So this timeline could have been an alternate past that Q sent Picard to. So its unknown if this had anything to do with the time change.

Could the khan time change explain all the inconsistencies we've seen in SNW/STD amd STP. Discoveries more advanced tech, uniform changes, the Khan project in STP, Spocks romances with Chapel and La' An, Kirk being in the enterprise much earlier and participating in their adventures, Spock mind melding with Kirk well before Dagger of the Mind when he stated to McCoy that it was his first time melding with a human.

I find this subject interesting. They have left plenty of things in the story to give us evidence of an alternate time line to TOS.

Also is the TOS we all watched the alternate timeline. I doubt it since Berman trek had visuals and call backs directly matching TOS. But I think it might be fun to explore the idea.

Thoughts? Anything I missed that might point to an alternate timeline?

Just enjoy SNW and TOS, before we starting suggesting TOS (aside from Mirror,Mirror) and TNG (aside from YE and Parallels) were made across different timelines/alternate realities.

 

[HotRod]

There are lots of things in SNW that future writers can clearly call it an alternate timeline to TOS. Maybe the SNW writers did it on purpose. Maybe they were planning to flesh put their universe past TOS and write everything their way and make it a total reboot.

Sure, future writers could decide that. Future writers could also decide that TOS itself was an alternate timeline created by the Temporal Cold War. They won't, but I suppose anything is possible.

The question is whether there's any evidence that's what the current writers are doing.

Right now, SNW consistently treats TOS as its future, not as a separate continuity. Pike is still headed toward his accident, Kirk is still destined to command Enterprise, and major TOS events are still being set up rather than replaced.

As for the timeline changes mentioned in "Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow," that episode doesn't suggest a completely different future. In fact, it suggests the opposite. Despite repeated temporal interference, certain events keep reasserting themselves.

Khan still exists.

The Eugenics Wars still happen.

History shifts, but the broad strokes remain intact.

Could a future writer declare SNW a separate timeline? Sure. But until that actually happens, I don't see any reason to assume that's the intent.

 

[Yistaan]

How does TOS, which travelled the the edge and rim of the galaxy more than once within 5 years (half a galaxy in each instance), co-exist with Voyager where Starfleet's fastest ship would take 70 years to get home? But then they cross over in "Flashback", ignoring the massive plot-breaking inconsistency.

You're really just saying it looks modern and you personally don't like it. We need to establish a baseline of what continuity is okay and which is too far. Does Voyager exist in the same world as TOS? There's a fundamental break. How do you, as a fan, reconcile it? Does it bother you when you watch? Were you even aware of it?

They also go to the center in TAS too. I think if the internet had not been brand new in 1994 we probably would've heard more of a fuss about it back then when Voyager launched.

Maybe the infamously vague "Tomed Incident" or even the massive explosion at the end of the Section 31 movie caused a galaxy wide warp slowdown similar to the Burn in Discovery. And Harry Kim was asleep in class to explain his claim that 23rd century ships were slower.

 

[Mudd]

It takes.place in the same made-up, inconsistent "future" that TOS does.

 

[Firebird]

I don't see this need to make any of the shows be in different timelines. If you don't like what a show is doing, you can simply choose to not watch it.

 

[BillJ]

I don't see this need to make any of the shows be in different timelines. If you don't like what a show is doing, you can simply choose to not watch it.

Isn’t that cutting off one’s nose to spite their face?

If the show is good, it really shouldn’t matter when or where it takes place. I would hope that folks wouldn’t reject something based on it simply being a different timeline.

 

[fireproof78]

Also is the TOS we all watched the alternate timeline.

Yes.

Warp drive is completely inconsistent.

Eugenics Wars are different dates.

Travel times are off the charts.

I don't see this need to make any of the shows be in different timelines. If you don't like what a show is doing, you can simply choose to not watch it.

Yup. If strict adherence is necessary then things that are inconsistent is best left aside.

 

[Tuskin38]

The writers said it's the same timeline so it's the same timeline. No ifs, and or buts.

 

[Tuskin38]

Eugenics Wars are different dates

Heck SNW itself tries to solve that issue by saying historians refer to the eugenics wars and WW3 as the same series of collective conflicts

 

[Finn]

Don't forget the TCW. Ripples continues throughout until we get to the 32rd Century.

 

[HotRod]

Isn’t that cutting off one’s nose to spite their face?

If the show is good, it really shouldn’t matter when or where it takes place. I would hope that folks wouldn’t reject something based on it simply being a different timeline.

Some would. Some did exactly that when Star Trek 2009 came around. I remember people saying that because it was an alternate timeline, it didn't matter and wasn't "real" Star Trek.

Personally, and I've said this before, I think making Strange New Worlds an alternate timeline does a disservice to both it and TOS. The connection between the two shows and between the characters makes both series better. Giving these classic characters rich and interesting backstories does nothing but enhance them in my eyes.

Uhura, while clearly an important and groundbreaking character for the 1960s, was never given much character development beyond her role on the bridge. We knew very little about her personal life, her struggles, or what it took for her to get there. Now I can watch TOS and see her differently. I know her pains, her struggles, and what it took for her to earn that place on the bridge.

The same can be said for Spock, Chapel, Kirk, and the others. Each of them has been enriched by what Strange New Worlds has shown us, in my opinion. Taking that away by declaring it an alternate timeline would do nothing but diminish those characters.