I think you assume incorrectly. That doesn't sound like anything I've read or written in Vanguard.(I assume that said rape reference is from Vanguard?)
Ever been thrown out of a story by a reference?
- Thread starter The Laughing Vulcan
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It didn't sound like anything I'd read in Vanguard either... but it sounds even less like any other Trek work.I think you assume incorrectly. That doesn't sound like anything I've read or written in Vanguard.(I assume that said rape reference is from Vanguard?
^^Well, there is a scene in Bantam's The Price of the Phoenix (a book just loaded with dominance-submission material) where the villain Omne is forcing Kirk to his knees before him, and there's a strong implication that his intent is to commit oral rape.
I don't know what book donners22 is talking about, though.
I don't know what book donners22 is talking about, though.
A character recalls being molested as a child in the first VOY-R duology, but I don't think it ever got that detailed.
Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
^ Bingo.
I know I'm in the minority in really disliking those books, but that scene was one of many reasons.
I had to spend a 40-minute train trip with nothing to read, because I was too embarrassed to read some of those stories in public, lest somebody glance over my shoulder...
I know I'm in the minority in really disliking those books, but that scene was one of many reasons.
I had to spend a 40-minute train trip with nothing to read, because I was too embarrassed to read some of those stories in public, lest somebody glance over my shoulder...
With what material?
I didn't read anything sexual in the interactions of Omne and the other characters in The Price of the Phoenix. He seemed a fairly run-of-the-mill egoistic tyrant - like Vandal Savage, if you're familiar with him.
Ohh, the whole Marshak-Culbreath body of work is preoccupied with sexualizing Kirk and Spock and exploring power and dominance dynamics. Kirk (or his duplicate James) is constantly being placed in subordinate positions by more powerful men and women and chafing against their domination. It's not blatant, since of course these were written for a mainstream audience in the '70s, but the subtext is everywhere, and PotP takes it the farthest.
According to longtime ST friends who collected and read a lot of "slash" fan fiction in the 70s and 80s, extra chapters for all four Marshak/Culbreath novels could be obtained by mail order.
I was a naive ST fan who read "Star Trek Lives!" in 1980 between reading "Fate of the Phoenix" and then "Price of the Phoenix" (wrong order, because I couldn't locate "Price" for many months) and even I knew there was lots going on between the lines.
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Since nobody else has offered what this might refer to, I suspect this might be a reference to the prison scenes early on in TITAN Book One where the disguised Starfleeter is in a very nasty Romulan prison. When I wrote the scene, it seemed eminently plausible that such sexual violence might indeed occur, as sexual violence occurs in pretty much every prison system known to man.
On other topics:
Glad to see - in reading this thread - that few people are bothered much by the in-references that Mike and I put into our books. We try to make them much more subtle than overt (and in fact, have a personal short-hand term for if we're being too obvious, which I will NOT share), and to make certain that they seem like something that fits. We also try not to draw big arrows pointing out that it's an in-joke.
A few I've enjoyed:
Taranatar versus the Aliens in DS9: Cathedral
the species of a certain counselor Huilan aboard Titan
the Mos Eisley homage in Last Full Measure
all of those are things SOME people have mentioned are too far, while the majority of people either didn't get them, or felt hit the tone just right.
And we do censor ourselves often and remove injokes or references that we feel have gone too far. Marco and Margaret have also taken things out (I don't recall anything Keith made us take out of our SCE books), as have (very rarely) Paramount. I think we lost a reference in Last Full Measure to Major Hayes' redhead wife Bree, and his troubled son and daughter back on Earth, for instance...
I don't even watch DH and got that one straight away. It's in popular culture, so what would have been so bad about having it left in?
^ I don't think Andy was saying it would have been "bad", just that either he and Michael or Margaret decided against including it. Writers (and editors) make those choices all the time, regardless of how good the trimmed material might be.
IMHO, that it's got nothing to do with Star Trek and that it would do nothing to advance the story or characterization or themes of the book are what's bad, but I'm a renowned crank on the subject. There are other places to get your fix of pop culture references and in-jokes, like The Simpsons and Family Guy. Star Trek is not really an obvious choice in that regard.
Yeah, mine too. I didn't get it at first, but once someone pointed it out to me I thought it was absolutely brilliant.
Well, today I was going to ask about this after reading MG3 yesterday, so thanks. I really enjoyed the book, by the way. Martin & Mangels are quickly becoming my favourite team of trek authors.
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