Events that should not have taken place in Generations

[darkshadow0001]

I'm watching Generations right now and I agree with the other thread that the film is good, but I still think there are some things that should not have taken place in the film.

1) Scotty's Presence
2) Demora Sulu (when did Sulu really have a family?)
3) Antonia in Kirk's "Nexus"
4) Kirk dying by slipping off a bridge (he should of died, if at all, a more hero's type of death)
5) Picard should of took Kirk's corpse back to Earth for proper burial. I still think it wasn't right to leave Kirk's body on a dead planet.

As far as the rest of the film, I think it was done fairly decent. Please, no "this film sucks" kind of responses, either

 

[The Old Mixer]

I really appreciated the unexpected twist in Kirk's between-movies life. We'd just assumed that he'd been in Starfleet the whole time, but in the official chronology, over a decade passed between TMP and TWOK, so the idea of him leaving and rejoining Starfleet, and his unhappiness with the choice no doubt playing into his midlife crisis in TWOK, added a nice layer of depth to what we would otherwise have envisioned as boring, cookie-cutter years in the admiralty.

Likewise, I have no problem with the idea that Sulu started a family somewhere in the gaps between TOS and TMP and/or TMP and TWOK. If Demora was a 22-year-old fresh out of the Academy, then by the official chronology, he would have fathered her roughly around the time of TMP, when he had been stationed at Earth for the refit. Obviously male Starfleet officers on deep-space missions would have been absentee fathers, but that happens in the real military to some extent, and even Starfleet officers are human and want something to come home to. Keep in mind that we'd only seen about six hours' worth of the previous 25 years of these people's lives. If Sulu, Uhura, etc. had been nothing but Starfleet officers with no families of their own in all of that time, they'd seem pretty pathetic.

I would rather the opening scene had involved Spock and McCoy, just because once I learned that it had been written for them, it became painfully obvious.

I would rather if the inexperienced captain of the Ent-B had been Chekov. He'd been a first officer several years before, so he might have been ready to assume his own command, rather than retire; and it would have been a nice touch if the next Enterprise had been captained by the most junior "hero" crewman of the previous one.

Kirk's underwhelming death--no argument. But I didn't think the burial was inappropriate. Had the Ent-D still been around, they could have shot him off in space, but the ships that were on the scene already had 1000 displaced crewmen and their luggage to contend with.

 

[darkshadow0001]

Kirk's underwhelming death--no argument. But I didn't think the burial was inappropriate. Had the Ent-D still been around, they could have shot him off in space, but the ships that were on the scene already had 1000 displaced crewmen and their luggage to contend with.

I just think they should have either way. After the ordeal with Spock in Star Trek III, Kirk still went back to give Spock a proper burial even though he ended up living.

 

[The Old Mixer]

^Only after Sarek had come into the picture to inform Kirk about the katra business.

 

[Plecostomus]

I think they should have given more thought to the malfunction that brought the D down. I can justify Laforge making the decision to evacuate and flee with all sorts of technobabble but as seen on screen he just gives up. He could have stayed behind to try to stop the breach but Riker brings the saucer back around to beam him off and the explosion knocks the saucer out of orbit.

Something like that.

 

[Christopher]

4) Kirk dying by slipping off a bridge (he should of died, if at all, a more hero's type of death)

The heroism wasn't in the location or the physical method of it. It was in the reasons and circumstances. Think about it. Kirk had almost fallen from that bridge to his death mere moments before, with Picard just barely saving him. And then he immediately went right back onto the same bridge -- because he had a job to do. Most people would've hesitated, or tried to find some alternate way of getting to the remote control. But Kirk didn't hesitate for an instant -- he leapt right back into the jaws of death, because there were lives at stake and that was the way to save them. To me, that's incredibly heroic. It's an act that took remarkable courage, dedication to duty, and a healthy dollop of recklessness, and that's perfectly in character for Jim Kirk. Nothing flashier is required.

I would rather if the inexperienced captain of the Ent-B had been Chekov. He'd been a first officer several years before, so he might have been ready to assume his own command, rather than retire; and it would have been a nice touch if the next Enterprise had been captained by the most junior "hero" crewman of the previous one.

That's an interesting idea.

 

[The Old Mixer]

^I understand the novels have gone a different route...but in my "personal canon", they reassigned Harriman and gave the ship to Chekov.

 

[Red Ranger]

By far, the two worst things about Generations were the underwhelming death of Kirk, and the crappy way an old Klingon bird of prey brings down a Galaxy-class starship. Lousy!

And Old Mixer, making Chekov captain of Enterprise-B would have been excellent. That would have been quite a passing of the torch, esp., as you noted, having the formerly most junior officer of the TOS seven rise to command another Enterprise. As I recall, he did pose as captain of Enterprise-A in TFF to confuse Sybok.

I did like the conversation between Kirk and Picard, esp. when Kirk says, "Who am I to refuse the captain of the Enterprise?"

Red Ranger

 

[Timo]

Was Chekov retired in ST:GEN? We know Kirk was, and we know Scotty would be soon enough. We know a lot of active careers were coming to an end "in three months" as ST6 end credits rolled. But we never quite learned whether the relative juniors - Chekov, Uhura, Sulu - were going to retire as well.

Also, a pet peeve: Picard probably didn't bury Kirk. For one thing, it would have been impossible for the old man to separate the carcass from the bridge wreck and haul it to the mountaintop, without even getting his uniform dirty. For another, the pile of rocks was a bit too small to hide the carcass. So at most Picard buried Kirk's head or something, and more probably he just erected a memorial cairn.

I think they should have given more thought to the malfunction that brought the D down. I can justify Laforge making the decision to evacuate and flee with all sorts of technobabble but as seen on screen he just gives up.

Why should he stay and fight for a lost cause? The ship is just as much metal; why sacrifice even a single life for this pile of hardware?

Starfleet isn't short of ships. Everybody's survival odds were probably improved by the decision not to stay and fight. And the Chief Engineer may well have had better things to do once the decision was made to abandon the stardrive hull.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[The Old Mixer]

^We were probably just seeing the top of a shallow grave.

I certainly got the impression that TUC was implying that the entire hero crew of the Ent-A was retiring...and it always bugged me, given the age discrepencies. Chekov was what, more than 20 years younger than Scotty and McCoy?

Sulu definitely wasn't retiring--he'd just broken out of the old folk's home and gotten his own command!

One thing I like about envisioning Chekov as a captain of the Ent-B is that he and his old bridge-buddy Sulu would wind up each commanding Excelsiors, the true "next generation" of Starfleet exploration cruisers.

 

[DWF]

Also, a pet peeve: Picard probably didn't bury Kirk. For one thing, it would have been impossible for the old man to separate the carcass from the bridge wreck and haul it to the mountaintop, without even getting his uniform dirty. For another, the pile of rocks was a bit too small to hide the carcass. So at most Picard buried Kirk's head or something, and more probably he just erected a memorial cairn.

With nothing around but rocks it'd be pretty hard to bury Kirk in the ground and seeing as how Kirk died at the bottom of the hill and Picard buried him at the top of it, he had to have cleared him from the bridge and carried him to the top of the hill.

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/generations/ch15/gen1074.jpg

 

[Ziz]

It's an act that took remarkable courage, dedication to duty, and a healthy dollop of recklessness.

Dude, just say it....

Kirk's got balls.

 

[Nedersong]

Well, Kirk did die exactly how he said he'd die. Alone.

Now you could get technical about it and say Picard was there at the exact moment when he said "Oh my" and the light went out of his eyes, but he was alone on that bridge, and he also stated that what he meant by alone is that he would be without Spock and McCoy there to back him up.

Although I don't think that's how the writer had planned it that way, it just sort of happened that way.

 

[Timo]

With nothing around but rocks it'd be pretty hard to bury Kirk in the ground and seeing as how Kirk died at the bottom of the hill and Picard buried him at the top of it, he had to have cleared him from the bridge and carried him to the top of the hill.

Which I find both physically impossible and dramatically implausible.

I mean, why would Picard bury this man on this planet? Sure, Kirk would already have had a funeral back in the 2290s, without a corpse, and the galaxy wouldn't require a second such ceremony, nor raise a ruckus if the corpse weren't returned to Earth. But there'd soon be a clean-up team to remove all traces of Federation presence on the planet, so that the Veridian space program wouldn't reveal the existence of space aliens too soon. And Picard would have no particular reason not to report Kirk's rebirth and redeath as part of his already complicated account of the events, so he could easily ask Riker for help in the burial if he wanted to go ahead with it.

Picard wouldn't have any reason to think he'd be alone on the planet with the corpse, either. He wouldn't even know his ship had crashed, not until he tried to contact her - at which point he'd find out that his crew was down on that very same planet and a short shuttlecraft hop away. So why go forward with the physically impossible burial?

OTOH, rearranging a few rocks is what I could very well see him doing as he waited for help to arrive. Perhaps the Prime Directive Sanitizing Team might even let the cairn stand. Although they'd probably remove the badge.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[DWF]

Veridian III was unpopulated for one thing and Kirk's body was removed in one of the books anyway.

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/The_Return

 

[Timo]

And what a book... But let's not disagree on matters of taste.

It still remains physically impossible for Picard to carry the corpse up there. The way Kirk's fall was edited, he fell twice the height of the mountain they used for filming. Most of that was along a sheer cliff face, traversible only with the help of the near-vertical ladders Soran had installed. A fireman in his prime couldn't have done it, let alone a winded man in his seventies, under the desert sun, without as much as a supply of water.

It makes a world of sense for Picard alone to climb up there, away from the stench of the corpse, and watch the horizon while waiting for the rescue shuttle. And while he's at it, why not erect the memorial? But hauling up the corpse is a different issue altogether.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Timewalker]

I'm watching Generations right now and I agree with the other thread that the film is good, but I still think there are some things that should not have taken place in the film.

1) Scotty's Presence
2) Demora Sulu (when did Sulu really have a family?)
3) Antonia in Kirk's "Nexus"
4) Kirk dying by slipping off a bridge (he should of died, if at all, a more hero's type of death)
5) Picard should of took Kirk's corpse back to Earth for proper burial. I still think it wasn't right to leave Kirk's body on a dead planet.

As far as the rest of the film, I think it was done fairly decent. Please, no "this film sucks" kind of responses, either

Antonia was one of the worst things about this movie. I just don't believe for a second that Kirk wouldn't have spent his time in the Nexus with Edith -- his real soulmate.

I got the impression that Kirk's funeral cairn was one way of saying to the fans, "He's dead, folks. Now please SHUT UP about any more TOS characters in the Trek movies!"

One other thing that should not have happened: the offhand deaths of Picard's brother and nephew. That bothered me even more than Kirk's death. That irrepressible kid who should have followed in Picard's footsteps... just dead, so Picard could have some stupid Victorian-style Christmas fantasy...?

Gah.

 

[Timo]

Antonia was one of the worst things about this movie. I just don't believe for a second that Kirk wouldn't have spent his time in the Nexus with Edith -- his real soulmate.

Oh, I would have felt betrayed, had Kirk really hitched it with any specific woman. He just wasn't the type. Now, an illusion of eternally being in command of the Enterprise... That I could buy. But eternity apparently wasn't for Kirk. His Nexus fantasies kept jumping back and forth during the seemingly very brief time he was in there. Clearly, he was ill at ease with the Nexus, and thus a plausible candidate for bailing out when given a good reason.

Kirk walked out of Carol's life, and obviously didn't get along with Ruth or Areel on the long run, either. Why would he have stayed with Edith for any longer?

One other thing that should not have happened: the offhand deaths of Picard's brother and nephew.

But "to happen" is IMHO better than "to not happen", in just about any work of drama. Although Sam Beckett might disagree.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[The Old Mixer]

Antonia was one of the worst things about this movie. I just don't believe for a second that Kirk wouldn't have spent his time in the Nexus with Edith -- his real soulmate.

Rubbish. We never saw any indication onscreen that Kirk later held her in any higher regard than the many other women he'd loved and lost. Antonia represented a road not taken, somebody he could have chosen to stay with and lead a different kind of life, but had given up in favor of his career. He never had that option with Edith.

 

[Timewalker]

Rubbish, yourself. The business with Antonia was a real "WTF?" moment for me in this movie, because we never met her before, on-screen, in a novel, short story, comic, or anywhere else. There was no emotional resonance whatsoever in that bit of the movie. It just felt fake.

Even if he didn't acknowledge it as such, Edith Keeler represents perfectly the "no-win" scenario -- he loved her, but in order to restore history, he had to let her die. There was simply no other way.

Edith was also a "road not taken" -- and one that had far greater consequences than Antonia.