Episode IX Speculation and Discussion

[Mage]

Honestly, I don't even dislike the new films. I didn't like the way some things were done as much as in the OT, but that doesn't mean I hate them. Some things were better - I really liked the way lightsaber combat was done in the new films.

Obviously you guys feel differently, but I still think there's an argument to be made that Rey picked up the Force quicker than Jedi we've seen before (at least in the films). Again, I'm not saying this is an inherently bad decision, just a change in direction. I thought that while watching the movie. I wasn't told to think it, and plenty of other people I've spoken to thought the same thing without prompting. These criticisms do come from somewhere, so why deride people as "whiney SW fans who aren't getting the fanwank sequels" if they make that case?

Unconsciously using Force-influenced reflexes for flying and using the Force for winning a lightsaber duel against a more experienced fighter for the first time in one's life without any training doesn't really sound similar to me.

Luke let the Force flow threw him to destroy the Deathstar. Young Ani was clearly already using the Force, as literally stated in TPM. People having issues with Rey being great at this, are looking for something that isn't there if you ask me. Fantasy itself has ALWAYS been loaded with characters suddenly being capable of great feats, wether it's novels, movies or shows. It's silly and, yes, whiney to say that because Star Wars never did on such a scale it doesn't belong there. It tells me people aren't open to change. That people are being closeminded. And it's that last part that those people are being told. It's not about being told you can't think a certain thing. It's being told to think more. Think open minded. Be able to accept that things change. Luke is no longer the saviour of the galaxy anymore, someone else is. Accept it. They're speaking out so loudly because they can't accept that for years they wanted a movie about Luke being perfect. They didn't get that. So they need to be angry at something. So let's be angry at the new character that is now the saviour. The one they didn't want. If Luke was somehow much more powerful now, and capable of Force powers we've never see or heard of before, people would have only said 'Well ofcourse, it's Luke. Makes sense.' And that's petty.

 

[fireproof78]

Why not? The only other being he knows is Chewie, and I know who I'd chose for a message.

Last I saw, she was being captured by Imperials. Chewie at least can fly a ship.

I get the Social Learning Theory idea and the lightsaber calling, but wouldn't those be instances of a change in the way the Force is portrayed?

How did Luke learn the mind trick? By Obi-Wan showing him. Lifting an X-Wing? Oh, Yoda showing him.
Now, on the flip side, we see a lot of instinctual work going along with learning about the Force.
What did Qui-Gon tell Anakin regarding the Force and how to learn to perceive it, even without training? What did Obi-Wan tell Luke? "Stretch out with your feelings."

There is precedent for both. It's expanding upon knowledge rather than assuming the Force only can appear in one way.

​

Yeah, I just don't think it's consistent with other Jedi even with those issues in the background. I kinda wish there wasn't a duel in TFA at all or that Rey had been beaten easily.

One thing I've read elsewhere (from people of your opinion) is that part of the reason this happens is because the audience is already so familiar with the Force they wouldn't sit through more training right off. That's pretty much how I see it, and I think it justifies the decision.

I've not seen that. Regardless, I think TFA takes the approach presented in bits and pieces in the prior films (from 1 all the way to 6) and demonstrates how the Force can expand one's world.

I'm mixed on the duel at the end. I can see the argument for no duel, but the duel is also very well done, very realistic, very visceral and hard hitting and leans far more on physical prowess rather than acrobatics of the PT or strict sword work of the OT. It's a good combination of the two.

I think showing Rey actually doing Force things, very similar to what is hinted at with Anakin, rather than just telling us she is super special, is an interesting take on learning. Again, the saga has demonstrated that the Jedi training way has not been working like they wanted, so why assume it has to go exactly as before?

Oh, and that's not even touching on the how the Force was expanded upon Clone Wars. The point is, the Force has expanded since the OT, and looking at it through the lens of only the OT is going to limit that POV.

 

[HugeLobes]

It tells me people aren't open to change. That people are being closeminded. And it's that last part that those people are being told. It's not about being told you can't think a certain thing. It's being told to think more. Think open minded. Be able to accept that things change.

Sure, I'm open to change. I don't like the way JJ handled the Force, but it's his vision of Star Wars. I'm not really arguing that change is bad as much as arguing that there is change.

How did Luke learn the mind trick? By Obi-Wan showing him. Lifting an X-Wing? Oh, Yoda showing him.

But Luke failed to lift the X-Wing and didn't use the mind trick until ROTJ.

I can see the argument for no duel, but the duel is also very well done, very realistic, very visceral and hard hitting and leans far more on physical prowess rather than acrobatics of the PT or strict sword work of the OT. It's a good combination of the two.

All true. I guess I mainly enjoy the OT duels because they're more about character and dialogue. Don't really care about the choreography and such, although I'd agree they struck a good balance. Loved the way lightsabers thrummed with power. Always felt they changed the way lightsabers work for the PT, so I appreciated the return to form.

 

[Ithekro]

Luke failed because he didn't believe he could do things. He gave up, and Yoda showed him why he failed.. Rey sort of just goes for it and it eventually works because she keeps doing it until it does. Because she believes she can do it.

 

[fireproof78]

But Luke failed to lift the X-Wing and didn't use the mind trick until ROTJ.

Luke didn't believe in himself, or his teachers, at that point. As @Ithekro points out, Rey is far more mindful, far more of an in the moment person and is more open to her instincts than Luke was. She is very similar to Anakin in the PT in that instance. Luke is far more intellectual (one of the reasons he is my favorite character) and has to think his way through a problem before "acting on instinct" as Obi-Wan tries to teach him.

All true. I guess I mainly enjoy the OT duels because they're more about character and dialogue. Don't really care about the choreography and such, although I'd agree they struck a good balance. Loved the way lightsabers thrummed with power. Always felt they changed the way lightsabers work for the PT, so I appreciated the return to form.

I guess I see the TFA duel as about character as well. Not in the dialog, but in their body language, in their response to the conflict. Rey is on her heels for a lot of it, and Kylo is at war within himself, even as he fights her. Rey, who was terrified to even see that lightsaber again, has to be reminded of what called her in the first place.

This is JJ Abrams strength and weakness. He doesn't always rely upon dialog but the visuals of the character and the very visceral nature of physical behavior. So, we are not going to really have the soliloquies during a duel like in the OT because the focus is on the body language of the characters and their own conflicts in that moment, both internal and external.

The duel isn't just a duel. It's a accumulation of the actions of the characters in the film, from Kylo's need to find Luke Skywalker, to Rey's rejection of the fight until she is literally flung in to it. Far from not being about character this fight is all about character. It just doesn't rely on spoken dialog.

 

[HugeLobes]

This is JJ Abrams strength and weakness. He doesn't always rely upon dialog but the visuals of the character and the very visceral nature of physical behavior. So, we are not going to really have the soliloquies during a duel like in the OT because the focus is on the body language of the characters and their own conflicts in that moment, both internal and external.

This is my issue. I'm just not much into visuals, especially since some of the best lines came out of the OT duels.

The duel isn't just a duel. It's a accumulation of the actions of the characters in the film, from Kylo's need to find Luke Skywalker, to Rey's rejection of the fight until she is literally flung in to it. Far from not being about character this fight is all about character. It just doesn't rely on spoken dialog.

Agreed, but I think the OT duels, especially the two between Luke and Vader, are maybe a touch more character-focused. One reason I'd have preferred to skip the lightsaber duel entirely in TFA. Don't get me wrong, though, it was still good and accept I'm in the minority here. There was at least more going on here than the PT duels, and the combat/setting was nicely subdued.

 

[fireproof78]

This is my issue. I'm just not much into visuals, especially since some of the best lines came out of the OT duels.

And that's fair. But, the fights went on over long due to the conversation in the middle. It's nice and dramatic but it strains my suspension of disbelief.

Agreed, but I think the OT duels, especially the two between Luke and Vader, are maybe a touch more character-focused. One reason I'd have preferred to skip the lightsaber duel entirely in TFA. Don't get me wrong, though, it was still good and accept I'm in the minority here. There was at least more going on here than the PT duels, and the combat/setting was nicely subdued.

Sure, the OT duels are more character focused. But, that isn't my issue. I don't want the ST to be exactly like the OT. The characters are coming out in different ways than in the OT and that's a positive, to my mind.

 

[HugeLobes]

And that's fair. But, the fights went on over long due to the conversation in the middle. It's nice and dramatic but it strains my suspension of disbelief.

Yeah, it's not so believably, but the dialogue was more important than the fighting itself. Everything going on between Vader and Luke was so complicated, it felt right to me that they'd talk. Also, if you're talking about visual storytelling, I'm putting this up there as top dog:

Unfortunately can't find it larger :/

Sure, the OT duels are more character focused. But, that isn't my issue. I don't want the ST to be exactly like the OT. The characters are coming out in different ways than in the OT and that's a positive, to my mind.

Thing is, I don't think ST can be like the OT after ROTJ. That whole story that begins with Luke longing to hear about his father and ends with Vader's redemption is just so unique and based off everything from Jungian psychology to the monomyth. TBH, I kinda view each set of movies as something different, which might be one reason why I intrepet Rey's Force abilities differently.

No matter how hard I try, I can't look at Darth Vader and see prequel Anakin (or RS Vader, for that matter). Even though it's the same character, I really don't see Han Solo in TFA as the same Han Solo from the OT. I consider them different reimaginings, so I'm also glad they're doing something different while still adopting a few cues from the OT.

 

[fireproof78]

Yeah, it's not so believably, but the dialogue was more important than the fighting itself. Everything going on between Vader and Luke was so complicated, it felt right to me that they'd talk. Also, if you're talking about visual storytelling, I'm putting this up there as top dog:

Unfortunately can't find it larger :/.

The OT absolutely has visual storytelling and I agree about the dialog. But, here's the thing about the ST-we already know that part. The characters in the ST don't and their discovery is the more important journey.

Thing is, I don't think ST can be like the OT after ROTJ. That whole story that begins with Luke longing to hear about his father and ends with Vader's redemption is just so unique and based off everything from Jungian psychology to the monomyth. TBH, I kinda view each set of movies as something different, which might be one reason why I intrepet Rey's Force abilities differently.

No matter how hard I try, I can't look at Darth Vader and see prequel Anakin (or RS Vader, for that matter). Even though it's the same character, I really don't see Han Solo in TFA as the same Han Solo from the OT. I consider them different reimaginings, so I'm also glad they're doing something different while still adopting a few cues from the OT.

Well, I don't think Han would be exactly the same as ROTJ Han. 30 years has that effect on a person.

I think this is the struggle. It's trying to frame them as the same thing, when in fact they are characters at different stages in life and that needs to be appreciated to appreciate their story and what is being told on screen. I don't see it as reimagining, as much as growth from younger to older.

 

[HugeLobes]

Well, I don't think Han would be exactly the same as ROTJ Han. 30 years has that effect on a person.

Sure, but I think it would go the other way with Han. He went from being an out-for-himself rogue in ANH to volunteering for dangerous missions in ROTJ. I know anything is possible under the circumstances, but I think the Han ROTJ would have continued that journey towards responsibility instead of going right back to how he was at the start of ANH. In fact, he's strangely hapless and even slightly incompetent in TFA - felt to me like they wanted him a bit like Peter Quill or something to serve as comic relief.

 

[fireproof78]

Sure, but I think it would go the other way with Han. He went from being an out-for-himself rogue in ANH to volunteering for dangerous missions in ROTJ. I know anything is possible under the circumstances, but I think the Han ROTJ would have continued that journey towards responsibility instead of going right back to how he was at the start of ANH. In fact, he's strangely hapless and even slightly incompetent in TFA - felt to me like they wanted him a bit like Peter Quill or something to serve as comic relief.

I don't get that feel but I can kind of see it. However, as someone who struggles with personal failure very poorly, I completely relate to Han and the desire to go back to what he knew.

It works in a strange way, but I certainly can see the other side.

 

[DigificWriter]

Many of those who criticize TFA and TLJ for how they portrayed Luke, Han, and Leia (moreso Luke and Han) "conveniently" ignore the fact that the events that led them into their respective "downwards spirals" occurred very close (within four years at most) to those films, as if nearly 3 decades of positive personal progress and growth mean nothing.

 

[fireproof78]

Many of those who criticize TFA and TLJ for how they portrayed Luke, Han, and Leia (moreso Luke and Han) "conveniently" ignore the fact that the events that led them into their respective "downwards spirals" occurred very close (within four years at most) to those films, as if nearly 3 decades of positive personal progress and growth mean nothing.

Largely because it isn't portrayed, and a common assumption that I have seen is that if it isn't on screen it didn't happen. This cuts both ways as this discussion demonstrates. We didn't see Luke learn certain Force powers, or Han get promoted to Captain and General in the Rebel forces so how did that happen!? I mean, we have a whole film about how the Death Star plans were acquired because a video game wasn't enough.

I struggle with reading it as "convenient ignorance" and more not thinking of these characters as "people" but rather puppets frozen in stasis.

 

[HugeLobes]

I struggle with reading it as "convenient ignorance" and more not thinking of these characters as "people" but rather puppets frozen in stasis.

Same.

At this point I see SW as essentially something like Batman. Not really a fixed concept as much as a set of characters and ideas you can riff on to create anything from Lego Batman to The Dark Knight. The sequels, prequels, and originals share plenty, but they're also their own things.

 

[fireproof78]

Same.

At this point I see SW as essentially something like Batman. Not really a fixed concept as much as a set of characters and ideas you can riff on to create anything from Lego Batman to The Dark Knight. The sequels, prequels, and originals share plenty, but they're also their own things.

Unilike Batman, none of the Star Wars films could exist without the other.

 

[JD]

This is my issue. I'm just not much into visuals, especially since some of the best lines came out of the OT duels.

I'm the complete opposite there, I'm very much a visual person, and that is part of why the duels in the OT are my least favorite in the series. I do enjoy the duels in Empire Strikes Back, and Return of the Jedi, but not as much as the PT and ST duels.
I grew up with movies like Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon and Hero, so when I think of duels I think of scenes like this

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

or this

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

 

[HugeLobes]

I'm the complete opposite there, I'm very much a visual person, and that is part of why the duels in the OT are my least favorite in the series.

Thing is ... I think the OT actually had better visuals. I just find the PT duels lazy, and I don't think what they're doing is really 'visual storytelling' at all. I'm pretty sure everyone's already heard this line, but:

To me, every PT fight is just a cluster**** of distraction. Best example is Grevious vs. Obi-Wan. You start off with a cyborg fighting with four lightsabers, then we interrupt with some busy external fighting to make sure there's plenty of blaster fire in the background, then we get a chase sequence where Grevious is in some novelty craft and Obi-Wan is on the back of a huge lizard. Grevious now has another weapon so they can play around with that, Obi-Wan and Grevious fight a little on G's craft thing, then they land and we move into a kinda fist fight, and only then does Obi-Wan win.

I mean, Jesus. That fight had so little happening they had to put a chase scene in the middle! It's the most ridiculous example, but even the beloved Anakin/Obi-Wan fight is just so filled with such distractions. I get this had to take place on a lava world, but did they really need to be swinging on cables, walking along narrow pipes, or fighting on tiny moving platforms? It's like the only way they could make these fights interesting is by moving the lightsabers as fast as possible and constantly changing things up in the most over-the-top ways possible.

But there's actually one shot in this sequence I really like:

Afraid that's not a great image, but I'm talking about the few seconds they fight through a tight corridor and sparks fly out as their sabers graze the walls. The sparks and flashes make an interesting shot, and I like how the tight space makes the duel seem more claustrophobic and intense. There's also some genuine creativity here; it's simply a cool little idea that wasn't just found throwing money at a computer. It's the exact opposite of a shot like this:

 

[HugeLobes]

Unilike Batman, none of the Star Wars films could exist without the other.

Couldn't the new films exist without the prequels? I haven't seen them too much, so this is a genuine question. Rogue One could certainly exist without anything but the OT!

What I mean is that the OT is whatever the original Batman was, and the other films are kinda like newer Batman projects. I don't mean this in a negative way - in fact I think it's the only way it could work.

 

[DigificWriter]

Looking for dialogue as a strength in Star Wars is like going to a Mexican restaurant and expecting to be able to order Sushi.

The dialogue and music in SW are SECONDARY to the visuals, and always have been.

 

[fireproof78]

Couldn't the new films exist without the prequels? I haven't seen them too much, so this is a genuine question. Rogue One could certainly exist without anything but the OT!

What I mean is that the OT is whatever the original Batman was, and the other films are kinda like newer Batman projects. I don't mean this in a negative way - in fact I think it's the only way it could work.

I don't agree. They are all trying to tell a story along the same timeline, with many recurring themes (saving what we love is Anakin's whole reason he fell in ROTS). They are not spin offs like Batman projects.

Regardless of my opinion of the PT I do believe we would not have the current films, or even the Clone Wars series, without them. Each piece informs something of the larger narrative, for good or ill.