Episode IX Speculation and Discussion

[Trekkin]

Talking only about OT here. The way lightsaber combat is treated in the prequels is ... not to my taste.

Unfortunately, ‘your taste’ doesn’t actually matter when we’re supposably going off ‘what Star Wars says.’

Leia wasn't Luke's sister at the time though. I think her 'resistance to the mindprobe' is more about general force of character. I mean, if it wasn't Tarkin and Vader would have been like, 'What? Isn't that something only Jedi can do?'

I literally said that resisting mind probes wasn’t ever presented as a Jedi thing.

So you...agree?

Afraid I don't really get the whole 'copied Kylo' argument. Luke saw Ben do plenty with the Force but couldn't do it himself. Same with Anakin.

Luke pulled telekinesis and telepathy out of nowhere. He shouldn’t have even known they were possibilities.

And yes, he did learn the mind trick just from watching Ben do it. No one else ever teaches him.

And really, just watch the scene.

Where he trips over and stumbles several times? And spends most of the fight with his sword pointed at the ground and swinging with two hands, after spending most of the movie being able to wield it with one?

It was actually something professional reviewers commented on at release. Compared the the more stylised fencing of other Star Wars, it actually looked like a fight between real people who could get injured, sloppy or tired.

 

[fireproof78]

See my comment above for this if you wrote this while I was writing mine (I hate it when that happens).

And really, just watch the scene.

I have, several times. One of my favorite duels in Star Wars, next to ROTJ and Obi-Wan v. Maul (both times). Kylo has been shot, wounded emotionally, as in not strong in the Force at that moment, and is physically weakened. He is facing down both a trained stormtrooper (Finn), who he toyed with and then dispatched, and a hardened survivalist with demonstrated combat skills and a natural affinity to the Force.

Much like Luke, Rey's natural abilities (piloting and combat, respectively) were accentuated by the Force. Unless you are telling me that Luke's trench run success was not a result of his Force sensitivity? In which case, I don't know what to tell you.

Where he trips over and stumbles several times? And spends most of the fight with his sword pointed at the ground and swinging with two hands, after spending most of the movie being able to wield it with one?

No, different scene The one were Kylo is clearly able to kick rear ends and bounce bullets off his chest ​

 

[Tuskin38]

See my comment above for this if you wrote this while I was writing mine (I hate it when that happens).

And really, just watch the scene.

You're blind then or not paying very close attention.

 

[HugeLobes]

Unfortunately, ‘your taste’ doesn’t actually matter when we’re supposably going off ‘what Star Wars says.’

I know, that's why I said 'I think that's another difference between OT and the other films' in terms of lightsaber combat. I said right from the get-go that I was discussing OT vs other films.

I literally said that resisting mind probes wasn’t ever presented as a Jedi thing.

I'm really not sure what your point is here. I think you just wanted to think up another time someone could block mindreading without Force training. There's a difference between the mechanical probe used on Leia and the Force ability mindreading used on Rey.

And yes, he did learn the mind trick just from watching Ben do it. No one else ever teaches him.

Eventually. In the final film. The Jedi mind trick in ROTJ is used to indicate that Luke has grown much stronger than before.

Where he trips over and stumbles several times? And spends most of the fight with his sword pointed at the ground and swinging with two hands, after spending most of the movie being able to wield it with one?

Yes, but he's still moving around without signs of pain during most of that fight. I'm not saying he isn't affected at all, but I think it's a pretty sorry excuse for Rey beating him.

And AGAIN, as much as I don't agree with Rey beating Ren, the main thing is just how many Force abilities Rey acquires in the first film.

 

[HugeLobes]

It was actually something professional reviewers commented on at release. Compared the the more stylised fencing of other Star Wars, it actually looked like a fight between real people who could get injured, sloppy or tired.

Yeah, I know. I totally agree with this, although I don't really think it applies to the OT.

 

[fireproof78]

Yes, but he's still moving around without signs of pain during most of that fight. I'm not saying he isn't affected at all, but I think it's a pretty sorry excuse for Rey beating him.

And AGAIN, as much as I don't agree with Rey beating Ren, the main thing is just how many Force abilities Rey acquires in the first film.

How many Force abilities did she demonstrate? Blocking his mind probe? Well, Obi-Wan specifically states that the Force can have a "strong influence" over weak minds. Even Poe resisted for a time. The mind trick? Again, weak minds and her picking up on how to use it through Kylo's own attempts at probing her mind. A door open can go both ways and all that. Rey clearly gleans information from Kylo's mind.

The lightsaber pulling to her? It was already calling to her through the Force. Her combat prowess? She still struggled until she opened herself to the Force and allowed it to guide her against a wounded and winded Kylo.

All of it can be explained and has demonstrated past precedent in the Star Wars saga, OT and PT (we cannot omit those in this discussion).

 

[HugeLobes]

All of it can be explained and has demonstrated past precedent in the Star Wars saga, OT and PT (we cannot omit those in this discussion).

Yeah, but can't it also be argued against using demonstrated past precedent in the Star Wars saga? This isn't the world of facts we're dealing with.

 

[DigificWriter]

I know, that's why I said 'I think that's another difference between OT and the other films' in terms of lightsaber combat. I said right from the get-go that I was discussing OT vs other films.



I'm really not sure what your point is here. I think you just wanted to think up another time someone could block mindreading without Force training. There's a difference between the mechanical probe used on Leia and the Force ability mindreading used on Rey.



Eventually. In the final film. The Jedi mind trick in ROTJ is used to indicate that Luke has grown much stronger than before.



Yes, but he's still moving around without signs of pain during most of that fight. I'm not saying he isn't affected at all, but I think it's a pretty sorry excuse for Rey beating him.

And AGAIN, as much as I don't agree with Rey beating Ren, the main thing is just how many Force abilities Rey acquires in the first film.

REY DOES NOT "BEAT" KYLO; THEY FIGHT TO A DRAW.

 

[HugeLobes]

REY DOES NOT "BEAT" KYLO; THEY FIGHT TO A DRAW.

Come on. She clearly bests him, even if she doesn't kill. I know I just talked about interpretations, but it's a real stretch calling that "a draw".

 

[DigificWriter]

She clearly bests him, even if she doesn't kill.

No. Their fight is interrupted by the destruction of Starkiller Base and a giant chasm that literally opens beneath their feet in an instant.

 

[HugeLobes]

No. Their fight is interrupted by the destruction of Starkiller Base and a giant chasm that literally opens beneath their feet in an instant.

The fight seems pretty over at that point. From Rey's eyes closed moment she starts dominating Kylo and leaves him lying defenceless in the snow. The whole chasm thing really seems more of a plot convenience to separate them.

Since fireproof was already good enough to bring mention the Black Knight:

 

[fireproof78]

Yeah, but can't it also be argued against using demonstrated past precedent in the Star Wars saga? This isn't the world of facts we're dealing with.

We can attempt to do so, but it's been demonstrated, both in OT and PT, that opening oneself up to the Force allows for natural and learned skills to be accentuated. Again, see Luke in the trench, Luke reaching for the lightsaber (by the way, no one taught him that), Leia sensing Luke, and communicating with him (who taught her that?), Anakin flying a pod racer (something humans can't do, as stated by Qui-Gon), Luke using Force choke (certainly not a Jedi skill, so who taught him that?), as well as the host of savants in the Legends EU. It's not unprecedented is my point, in summary.

Your honor, the defense rests, but reserves the right to bring in new witnesses.

 

[HugeLobes]

Your honor, the defense rests, but reserves the right to bring in new witnesses.

Haha, time for my rebuttal. This is how I want you picturing me:

it's been demonstrated, both in OT and PT, that opening oneself up to the Force allows for natural and learned skills to be accentuated. Again, see Luke in the trench, Luke reaching for the lightsaber (by the way, no one taught him that), Leia sensing Luke, and communicating with him (who taught her that?), Anakin flying a pod racer (something humans can't do, as stated by Qui-Gon), Luke using Force choke (certainly not a Jedi skill, so who taught him that?), as well as the host of savants in the Legends EU. It's not unprecedented is my point, in summary.

So, these points. "opening oneself up to the Force allows for natural and learned skills to be accentuated". Yes, I agree. It's more the speed it comes to those characters. Luke reaches for his lightsaber years after first feeling the Force. I can't prove it, but it seems likely Luke was trying to focus his abilities during the years following ANH. Same sort of thing with Force choke. As with the mind trick, it's a way of showing just how far Luke has come since ESB. The same thing used by the writers in ROTJ to signal Luke's growing mastery of the Force is done by Rey seemingly without effort.

Leia does sense Luke, but it's worth mentioning that he reaches out to her and that this is her only demonstrated use of the Force, which seems about as minor as you can get.

As for Anakin, I like the whole podracing thing. It's actually one of the only things I like in the entire prequels saga. But we don't see him do all this other stuff, and I think that makes a difference.

What's unprecedented is having all these abilities at once. I don't know about the Legends EU though. I've only read a few books and that was about 15 years ago. Again, I'm not saying Rey learning the Force faster than other people is inherently bad. I think it's just a part of how JJ changed Star Wars to fit with his own vision. I don't love it, and I'm not saying it's stupid. Just think it's different to how the Force was portrayed before, and I do prefer the original portrayal.

 

[fireproof78]

Haha, time for my rebuttal. This is how I want you picturing me:

Very well:

So, these points. "opening oneself up to the Force allows for natural and learned skills to be accentuated". Yes, I agree. It's more the speed it comes to those characters. Luke reaches for his lightsaber years after first feeling the Force. I can't prove it, but it seems likely Luke was trying to focus his abilities during the years following ANH. Same sort of thing with Force choke. As with the mind trick, it's a way of showing just how far Luke has come since ESB. The same thing used by the writers in ROTJ to signal Luke's growing mastery of the Force is done by Rey seemingly without effort.

I wouldn't say it's without effort. I think that Rey struggles to attempt to figure out this whole Force thing, but her natural skills are accentuated by the Force, something wholly supported by ANH.

Leia does sense Luke, but it's worth mentioning that he reaches out to her and that this is her only demonstrated use of the Force, which seems about as minor as you can get.

But, why Leia? Chewie doesn't hear it. If its minor thing, why not broadcast a broadwave? Also, Luke has a similar conversation with Vader, again, without training or being told its a thing, that we know. While Rey is able to peer inside a Force user's mind and get an idea of how this whole Force thing works.

As for Anakin, I like the whole podracing thing. It's actually one of the only things I like in the entire prequels saga. But we don't see him do all this other stuff, and I think that makes a difference.

But, we are told that he can do other things. So, podracing isn't the only thing his Force sensitivity allows him to do. It also allows him to pilot a foreign starfighter without prior knowledge of the ship's systems.

What's unprecedented is having all these abilities at once. I don't know about the Legends EU though. I've only read a few books and that was about 15 years ago. Again, I'm not saying Rey learning the Force faster than other people is inherently bad. I think it's just a part of how JJ changed Star Wars to fit with his own vision. I don't love it, and I'm not saying it's stupid. Just think it's different to how the Force was portrayed before, and I do prefer the original portrayal.

I don't think Rey learned it faster. I think she had a different skill set that was complimented by her growing awareness of the Force. Like Luke flying, and apparently becoming more proficient with the saber in combat between ANH and ESB, since, as you stated, he received no other training regarding a lightsaber. Well, he certainly developed better between ESB and ROTJ since he faces down his fear and Vader, who roundly beat him and toyed with him, and only cut off his hand after Luke landed an actual blow.

 

[DigificWriter]

What's unprecedented is having all these abilities at once.

I don't think you actually understand anything whatsoever about either Star Wars as a whole or about the Force as it's been consistently portrayed.

I think it's just a part of how JJ changed Star Wars to fit with his own vision.

I don't agree with JJ 's point of view when it comes to Star Wars, but a comment like this is just nonsense and demonstrates a complete lack of understanding about what that POV is.

 

[HugeLobes]

I don't think you actually understand anything whatsoever about either Star Wars as a whole or about the Force as it's been consistently portrayed.

I don't agree with JJ 's point of view when it comes to Star Wars, but a comment like this is just nonsense and demonstrates a complete lack of understanding about what that POV is.

Look, I'm going to be honest. I think you're being pretty rude here and have been with other people on this thread. I'm making points and backing them up, just like you. I don't appeciate being straightup insulted. Fireproof has disagreed with me as much as you, but he's still being a nice guy and I'm enjoying the debate.

We're talking about movies here,not facts. It could be we both have different opinions about some of this stuff. People have been debating certain books, plays, and such for years because there's room for so many opinions.

 

[HugeLobes]

But, why Leia? Chewie doesn't hear it. If its minor thing, why not broadcast a broadwave?

He speaks directly to Leia.

I don't think Rey learned it faster. I think she had a different skill set that was complimented by her growing awareness of the Force. Like Luke flying, and apparently becoming more proficient with the saber in combat between ANH and ESB, since, as you stated, he received no other training regarding a lightsaber.

Maybe she had a different skillset, but I don't think that accounts for all the abilities she shows.

I wouldn't say it's without effort. I think that Rey struggles to attempt to figure out this whole Force thing, but her natural skills are accentuated by the Force, something wholly supported by ANH.

I think there's a touch of struggle, but I'm not sure this is supported by ANH since her skills seem strongly accentuated. Luke had to focus all his willpower to grab his lightsaber in ESB, years after first feeling the Force, but Rey could do that and other things in her first movie. For me, the biggest thing is her defeating Kylo, even with his injuries.

I think we're just going to go round and round here with speed/abilities :/

 

[DigificWriter]

Look, I'm going to be honest. I think you're being pretty rude here and have been with other people on this thread. I'm making points and backing them up, just like you. I don't appeciate being straightup insulted. Fireproof has disagreed with me as much as you, but he's still being a nice guy and I'm enjoying the debate.

We're talking about movies here,not facts. It could be we both have different opinions about some of this stuff. People have been debating certain books, plays, and such for years because there's room for so many opinions.

Fireproof has the patience to "keep going around in circles" with you; I no longer do.

And making the statement that you don't know what you're talking about isn't being insulting; it's being dismissive.

To quote Grand Moff Tarkin, "this bickering is pointless", and so I'm extricating myself from it with a statement about the lack of veracity of your point of view.

 

[fireproof78]

He speaks directly to Leia.

Why her?

Maybe she had a different skillset, but I don't think that accounts for all the abilities she shows.

She is also exposed to the Force in a much different way than Luke or Anakin. I'll refer back to my Social Learning Theory, um, theory. She sees it done rather than just being told.

I think there's a touch of struggle, but I'm not sure this is supported by ANH since her skills seem strongly accentuated. Luke had to focus all his willpower to grab his lightsaber in ESB, years after first feeling the Force, but Rey could do that and other things in her first movie. For me, the biggest thing is her defeating Kylo, even with his injuries.

Luke was also injured in ESB.

Also, the lightsaber was already calling to Rey. I truly did not interpret that scene as Rey calling the lightsaber but Rey responding to the lightsaber's call again but being open to it.

I think we're just going to go round and round here with speed/abilities :/

Probably. Welcome to the Internet.

I think the point of disconnect is how wounded Kylo was. He wasn't just physically wounded, though that is significant. His connection to the Dark Side was disturbed, as he thought it would relieve his call to the Light Side by killing Han Solo, but instead it diminished him in some way. Which continues on in TLJ.

To quote Grand Moff Tarkin, "this bickering is pointless", and so I'm extricating myself from it with a statement about the lack of veracity of your point of view.

With due respect, all of this is pointless. Not sure why this particular conversation is more pointless than others on this board... ​

 

[HugeLobes]

Why her?

Why not? The only other being he knows is Chewie, and I know who I'd chose for a message.

She is also exposed to the Force in a much different way than Luke or Anakin. I'll refer back to my Social Learning Theory, um, theory. She sees it done rather than just being told.

Also, the lightsaber was already calling to Rey. I truly did not interpret that scene as Rey calling the lightsaber but Rey responding to the lightsaber's call again but being open to it.

I get the Social Learning Theory idea and the lightsaber calling, but wouldn't those be instances of a change in the way the Force is portrayed?

I think the point of disconnect is how wounded Kylo was. He wasn't just physically wounded, though that is significant. His connection to the Dark Side was disturbed, as he thought it would relieve his call to the Light Side by killing Han Solo, but instead it diminished him in some way. Which continues on in TLJ.

Yeah, I just don't think it's consistent with other Jedi even with those issues in the background. I kinda wish there wasn't a duel in TFA at all or that Rey had been beaten easily.

One thing I've read elsewhere (from people of your opinion) is that part of the reason this happens is because the audience is already so familiar with the Force they wouldn't sit through more training right off. That's pretty much how I see it, and I think it justifies the decision.