It's very confusing.
Episode IX Speculation and Discussion
- Thread starter INACTIVESamusAranX
- Start date
Honestly, I don't even think it's about her perse. I think it's about whiney SW fans who aren't getting the fanwank sequels they have been dreaming over for almost two decades now. So they're struggling to find any kind of nonsense to piss over. I've said it a thousand times, I'll say it again..... Fans are killing fandoms. Haven't called myself a 'fan' of anything for years now, it makes me sick to identify with '5'-ish people I know of.
^ Given that The Force Awakens was made by Abrams and Kasdan for the specific purpose of recapturing the feelings that they personally had coming out of seeing ANH for the very first time, the idea that the complaints leveled against Rey are a "mask" for a general discontent from certain people over not getting an appropriately "fanservicy" film doesn't hold up.
Honestly, I don't even dislike the new films. I didn't like the way some things were done as much as in the OT, but that doesn't mean I hate them. Some things were better - I really liked the way lightsaber combat was done in the new films.
Obviously you guys feel differently, but I still think there's an argument to be made that Rey picked up the Force quicker than Jedi we've seen before (at least in the films). Again, I'm not saying this is an inherently bad decision, just a change in direction. I thought that while watching the movie. I wasn't told to think it, and plenty of other people I've spoken to thought the same thing without prompting. These criticisms do come from somewhere, so why deride people as "whiney SW fans who aren't getting the fanwank sequels" if they make that case?
I think this difference between how we're seeing this. I think there's a difference between sensing the Force and controlling it. I'd back this up with the Luke/Obi-Wan exchange in ESB "I can feel the Force"/"But you cannot control it".
Luke and Anakin can both sense the Force in some way. We are told Anakin can race at such high speeds because he's Force-sensitive. I think Luke's piloting is also aided by such Force sensitivity, but it's not directly stated. So, they can feel the Force and make semi-conscious use of it, but it's only through training and practice that they're able to really "control" the Force. I'd feel differently if Anakin was moving around parts with his mind or something during TPM, but that's not the case.
I think I mentioned the Harry Potter comparison before. I'd say it's a little like how wizards discover their magical abilities. When they're young, they might employ magic accidently under stressful situations, but they aren't able to really control those abilities until they go through training.
^ The Harry Potter comparison doesn't work because young wizards cannot use magic to directly influence or augment their actions without being trained to do so, whereas, per TPM, Anakin was using the Force to direct his actions and allow him to have the lightning-quick reflexes necessary for controlling a podracer, and was doing so without any formal training whatsoever, just as Rey uses the Force to resist Kylo Ren's mind probe and convince the Stormtroopers to let her escape.
The only difference between what Anakin was doing and what Rey did is that Anakin was not consciously aware of what he was doing, whereas Rey was (even though she didn't understand what it was that she was doing).
The only difference between what Anakin was doing and what Rey did is that Anakin was not consciously aware of what he was doing, whereas Rey was (even though she didn't understand what it was that she was doing).
Well, the Harry Potter thing wasn't meant to be a perfect comparison. My reasoning is that Anakin is having one natural ability augmented by Force sensitivity, whereas Rey was doing what I suppose you might call "tricks" with the Force. To me, there's a difference between having your racing skills sharpened through the Force (especially when you're supposed to be the most powerful Jedi ever) and being able to move things, hold your own with a lightsaber, and use the mind trick.
I think the "consciously aware" difference you mentioned is a big difference.
I guess, we're really going to have to disagree on this. I can see your side of things, but I definitely think there's more than one way to interpret this.
I think the "consciously aware" difference you mentioned is a big difference.
I guess, we're really going to have to disagree on this. I can see your side of things, but I definitely think there's more than one way to interpret this.
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Not really what ‘control’ meant in Harry Potter.
The magic still does what they want, when they have no training. Harry made himself fly away to escape from bullies, regrow hair from a bad haircut, shrink a bad jumper, speak to snakes etc. Then, in the narrative itself he evaporates a pane of glass to free a python and annoy Dudley, and makes his terrible aunt float away after telling her to piss off.
Children just can’t limit they’re magic. Which is something we see Rey does struggle with.
Considering every time she taps into it on a large scale, she can’t seem to help throwing herself head first into the Dark Side hole. And she nearly bisects a defeated and unarmed Kylo and Luke, because she’s caught up in the heat of battle.
It is when it works with the character's already demonstrated talents and skills, i.e. Rey's combat prowess, Anakin's flight skills, Leia's empathy. ESB, again, demonstrating powers that had never been seen before, or really very often since, until TLJ.
I guess this might just open another can of worms, but I think that's another difference between OT and the other films. I don't think there was much of a link between 'combat prowess' and lightsaber ability in the OT.
Completely breaking the laws of physics, is not as big of a deal as some heightened reflexes?
Because we see Rey already had combat prowess, before the ‘awakening.’ Based on some of the stuff she says and what we see of Jakku, presumably a lifetime of it. It was Luke and Anakin in their trilogies, who managed ‘farm boy to mass-slaughterer in two days.’
And in Rey’s case, those ‘experienced fighters’ respectively have holes the size of medicine balls in their abdomen, and are an old unarmed Jedi that’s completely cut off from the Force.
Oh, and she needed Finn’s help with the first one, because he initially KO’d her with one hit. And the fight with Luke wasn’t a ‘duel,’ it was Luke just attempting to be a patronising smart ass because he’d underestimated how close Rey was to losing her shit.
That’s why you see him look absolutely shocked when she pulls the lightsaber, and why he sticks with his ‘no Force ever’ rule until it’s too late to be useful.
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Luke and Anakin both received training regarding the saber, but received no training (Force related) regarding their natural flying abilities. The Force, as described in one novel, can fit several "containers" to serve its purpose.
As much as I hold to the difference between besting Kylo and heightened racing reflexes, I think it's more the number of abilities we see Rey use. She can block Kylo's mindreading, read his mind, grab things with the Force, win a lightsaber duel, and use the Jedi mind trick. Pretty much everything we've seen a Jedi do!
Well, I don't think Luke's training was lightsaber training. He is using his lightsaber with Obi-Wan, but he's being taught more about the Force and less about combat.
Check out some lines:
"A Jedi can feel the Force flowing through him."
"You mean it controls your actions/"Partially, but it also obeys your commands."
"Let go your conscious self and act on instinct."
"Stretch out with your feelings."
The final result: "I did feel something. I could almost see the remote"/"That's good. You've just taken your first step into a larger world".
Obi-Wan is not teaching Luke about combat at all, at least not in a traditional sense. He's using the exercise as a way to teach Luke how to feel the Force and begin to control it. Luke is completely blind when he takes that first step; he doesn't block the remote for any reason to do with "combat prowess". After this, we're never shown Luke getting trained with a lightsaber.
This is such a genius idea because it perfectly conveys that dueling with lightsabers depends on a mastery of the Force rather than 'skill' or 'swordsmanship'. It's part of what made the Force seem so special.
Why not both. The Force doesn't just control actions but obeys commands. So, why not use of natural and already learned talents?
Sure, that could be. Just doesn't feel right to me within the context of that scene. The crucial part is Luke's blindness, which seems to imply this really is about faith and power rather than 'skill'. I interpret the controls actions/obeys commands idea more as a Jedi having to hold those two in check at once. It controls Luke's actions by making him move right but also obeys commands by doing so in the first place. It also fits with the more spiritual side of the Force portrayed in the OT.
But again, it's more that she bests Kylo than anything else.
People keep bringing this up. When you look at that duel Kylo seems to be doing just fine fighting Rey at first. Doesn't show much in the way of physical pain or impaired movement. More importantly, it's only after Rey does her little eyes closed thing that she's able to take him down, so arguments about Kylo's physical condition don't really seem to stand up.
Leia blocks Vader in ANH. And that’s when she was just an ordinary person. Pure will or deflections seems to be able to work.
Also, Kylo never actually says Rey blocks him. He does have a good rummage around before she just copies what he’s doing and he storms off. And she suggests that she wouldn’t have been able to if he wasn’t creating the link. ‘A door goes both ways.’
Besides armed combat (which she already knew), everything she does is copied from Kylo.
Yeah...
Except the big hole in Qui-Gon Jinn’s gut (and all those Jedi that Grevious managed to kill), would suggest that physical ability is still somewhat important.
The Force does not make you a great combatant on its own. You actually need to be able to hold a sword or fire a blaster, without burning off your own face.
He’s hunched over and punching the wound to keep alert, before the fight even starts. He also pitches forward a few times in the fight itself, because he’s now overswinging and it’s hurting him.
And Kylo does so ‘fine’ in his fight, that regular old Finn actually holds him off for a few minutes. Keeping in mind at the start of the movie when Kylo really was fine, Poe and Rey couldn’t even get within arm’s reach of Kylo.
And the ‘close your eyes’ thing is Rey’s ‘search your feelings’ moment. Unlike Luke, she just had Kylo telling her to do it instead of a ghost. And like Luke, she was doing pretty up until that moment (in that they hadn’t lost or died) but were having the problem of not doing well enough.
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Leia wasn't Luke's sister at the time though. I think her 'resistance to the mindprobe' is more about general force of character. I mean, if it wasn't Tarkin and Vader would have been like, 'What? Isn't that something only Jedi can do?'
Afraid I don't really get the whole 'copied Kylo' argument. Luke saw Ben do plenty with the Force but couldn't do it himself. Same with Anakin.
Talking only about OT here. The way lightsaber combat is treated in the prequels is ... not to my taste.
Kylo was shot by a weapon demonstrated to blow armored individuals back several feet. Then he has to fight two opponents back to back. But, sure, clearly he was on his A game...
See my comment above for this if you wrote this while I was writing mine (I hate it when that happens).
And really, just watch the scene.
