In light of Anakin being as naturally proficient in the Force as he was and Rey being similar, Luke's struggle to use the Force, despite having had 3 years in which we know he had opportunities to harness his abilities, is outdated.
Episode IX Speculation and Discussion
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In light of Anakin being as naturally proficient in the Force as he was and Rey being similar, Luke's struggle to use the Force, despite having had 3 years in which we know he had opportunities to harness his abilities, is outdated.
But Anakin wasn't that proficient when we first see him, he just has outstanding potential that comes out when he races. He isn't moving things around with the force or anything when we first see him, and Anakin supposedly has this huge midichlorian count. It's been a while since I watched TPM, but does he even know he might be a Jedi?
Part of the appeal of the OT Force is that it's a spiritual thing that's extemely tough to master. Even after training with Yoda and practicing on his own all those years, Luke still can't control the Force and "isn't a Jedi yet". By the time he gets there in ROTJ, he's almost completely changed.
Rey just has this one flash and she suddenly seems able to harness these abilities she barely knew she had. It completely undermines what made the Force interesting and unique in the first place, at least as far as I'm concerned. I think that's why a lot of people disliked Rey's rapid acquisition of the force.
I don't see it as rapid acquisition. I think it is putting a name to things she had a vague understanding or idea of what she had been doing in order to survive on Jakku. She basically has a moment of spiritual awakening, which makes the Force all the more spiritual because it isn't mastery as it is instinct being given a name.
As I said, she has the Star Wars version of social learning theory, in that she gets to see it done, either in Kylo's mind or how Kylo uses it. Even Luke didn't have that benefit.
Sure, this is all possible, but even this SLT idea is a break with the more spiritual Force use of the OT and a bit of a reach.
Thing is, I don't even hate the Rey thing. I like it a lot less than I like the Force in the OT, but this was always going to be how things went down with JJ at the helm. The whole Rey acquires the Force thing reminds me a lot of Kirk going from recruit to Captain during one movie. You can throw a bunch of theories at it, but ultimately JJ just wanted a Captain and a lightsaber fight. Can't we just accept that he wanted a quick and easy solution?
I just object to the idea that people only hate the Rey thing "because they wanted something to whine about."
Then how did Luke learn between ANH and ESB? That's something that is largely left unexplored.
I know it isn't canon any more, but the ROTS novel does a great job of exploring that the Jedi concept of the Force may not be 100% accurate and that their knowledge is limited. So, there is room for expanding how the Force works, and that started with the PT.
We may not like it, but that doesn't mean it can't change.
No. Qui-Gon flat-out says that he's able to race pods because he's unconsciously tapping into the Force to "sense things before they happen". He's using the Force without formal training, just as Rey does when she mind-tricks the Stormtroopers into letting her escape and when she resists Kylo's mind probe.
The nature of the Force has never changed, and it was never supposed to be "extremely tough to master"; that's simply your own personal interpretation.
Anakin was "harnessing these abilities that he didn't know he had" in TPM and for months, if not years, before we meet him. Why does he get a "pass" whereas Rey doesn't?
No, it doesn't. It undermines your own personal interpretation of "what made the Force interesting and unique in the first place".
No. Rey using the Force abilities she does in The Force Awakens is entirely consistent with previous portrayals of "heroes" using the Force without formal training. People objected simply because they wanted something to be critical of.
She beats a trained Jedi in a lightsaber duel. She's able to use the Jedi mind trick right off the bat. She's basically able to do whatever previous Jedi can do without ANY training. Even if you disagree, saying people only objected because they wanted something to be critical of is so dismissive. You could apply that to criticism of anything.
"A Jedi must have the deepest commitment. The most serious mind". I mean, I think my interpretation is backed up by the OT. Vader, Obi-Wan, Kenobi, and ROTJ Luke are all serious and committed people who speak of the Force in spiritual terms. The one OT Jedi learning the ways of the force through these movies progresses very slowly.
Again, how this is handled with Anakin and Luke is different. Luke is a natural pilot and Anakin is able to podrace, but they weren't naturally able to do all these more complex things with the force. It just augmented of their natural abilities.
We already saw Rey demonstrate that she has prowess with combat skills, and piloting skills, and had seen in to Kylo's mind what he was attempting to do.
Secondly, Kylo is not a fully trained Jedi, otherwise Luke would not be so despondent that he would be the last Jedi.
Thirdly, there is a conflation of Force abilities and Jedi teaching. Those two are not the same.
No, she doesn't. She fights a severely injured Kylo Ren to a draw.
Which is not unlike Anakin sensing the future without having been trained to do so.
The truth hurts.
You're confusing the tenets of the Jedi Order - A RELIGIOUS INSTITUTION - with being able to use the Force at all.
Luke's piloting had nothing to do with his abilities in the Force, but Anakin's ability to podrace DID, and you saying otherwise goes completely against what we are both specifically and directly told and shown within The Phantom Menace itself.
No, we can't, because doing so would be perpetuating a blatant falsehood.
Since I don't believe that to be the case no I cannot say that.
Not only severely injured, but emotionally compromised. Regardless of his intentions behind the act, he committed patricide minutes before his fight with Rey. Kylo was far from at his best at that moment.
But I feel like we've discussed this point 1000 times in this forum in the past nine months.
9 months? That's being generously short.
Okay, two years and nine months.
(Getting over a cold. Brain was putting said event in TLJ not TFA.)
you shouldn't have shared that cold...my head hurts and I doubt it's from the conversationOkay, two years and nine months.
you shouldn't have shared that cold...my head hurts and I doubt it's from the conversation
Damned hybrid computer/human viruses.
Good. You shouldn't feel like Rey learns the ways of the Force faster than previous heroic Force users we've seen because she doesn't, and it can be factually proven that she doesn't.
I dislike the sequel trilogy so far, but I think you're spot on here.
Let's also not forget, Rey and Anakin knew about Jedi's. Probably heard about their abilities, if not knowing about the Force itself. Luke was 'wtf is a Jedi and a Force'. He needed time to wrap his brain around something like that. To Rey and Anakin, it was already something they knew about. If in very simple terms ofcourse.
I put all the emphasis on Anakin and Luke in comparison to Rey, but there's another example I'd forgotten about: Leia "hearing" Luke's cry for help in TESB. Where is the "outrage" over that?
The critical response to Rey being able to do what she does in TFA exposed a blatant double standard that was applied solely to her for "reasons" that are as nonsensical as they are baffling.
The critical response to Rey being able to do what she does in TFA exposed a blatant double standard that was applied solely to her for "reasons" that are as nonsensical as they are baffling.
