"Enterprise" or "Star Trek" (2009) — Which Had The Better Cast?

[Yug]

Homosapiens are uniquely adapted to to the Earth and the melanin in the skin is a natural sun block. Considering that the system the planet vulcan is in a trinary star system, If vulcans were anything like humans they would all be black. Since obviously the majority of vulcans we've seen are not they should have a completely different method of blocking the sun that doesn't involve skin color.

This is particularly peculiar odd since Star Trek considers evolution as factual.

Evolution isn't all that simple. There could be a multitude of reasons for the variation in skin tone, even in an Earth bound sense. Perhaps as simple as a recessive gene, a throw back from when Vulcans were darker skinned that only manifests itself along certain blood lines or perhaps every thousand Vulcan births or so, making the dark-skinned Vulcan a rarity, but conceivable.

And/or... Maybe there were two "homo-vulcanian" races co-existing on Vulcan millions of years ago similar to, but not necessarily the same as, Neanderthals and Cro-Magnons from our own prehistoric history. A second tribe of Vulcans whose origins are all together different, and who perhaps had deeper skin tones. Or even single species migrations throughout the planet from one point of origin, developing separately. In either case; as time marched on these tribes finally meet (again, or for the first time) and perhaps merged, mated, and evolved resulting in two (or more) formerly separate, genetically compatible, races now unified but still exhibiting some physical differences.

Or... Perhaps the "black Vulcans" suffer from a genetic skin disorder like a reverse Vitiligo, or a pigment condition similar to albinos on Earth.

Or... Considering also that apparently Vulcans have been a space faring race for the last few thousand some years (or many more), any number of influences could exist. Perhaps a Vulcan colony was founded a few thousand years ago on a sister planet in the same system as Vulcan and developed such protective skin alterations based on what ever environmental influences they may have encountered.

And... Spock mentions that perhaps Vulcans (and Romulans) are themselves ancestors of Sargon's race from "Return to Tomorrow" allowing for other unknown genetic influences to be at play. On that point, while possibly a bit more far fetched, any number of alien races may have had a hand in Vulcan development, in some way and not limited to genetically, beyond planetary conditions developing Vulcan evolution.

There's always realistic plausibities in a sci-fi universe, which may have been taken into consideration when they cast Tim Russ as Tuvok. He was simply perfect for the role first and foremost, after that everything else is left up to the imagination fueling playful speculation.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Aren't Nimoy and Lenard decended from a desert dwelling people?

 

[KottenFutz]

Homosapiens are uniquely adapted to to the Earth and the melanin in the skin is a natural sun block. Considering that the system the planet vulcan is in a trinary star system, If vulcans were anything like humans they would all be black. Since obviously the majority of vulcans we've seen are not they should have a completely different method of blocking the sun that doesn't involve skin color.

This is particularly peculiar odd since Star Trek considers evolution as factual.

Evolution isn't all that simple. There could be a multitude of reasons for the variation in skin tone, even in an Earth bound sense....

....There's always realistic plausibities in a sci-fi universe, which may have been taken into consideration when they cast Tim Russ as Tuvok. He was simply perfect for the role first and foremost, after that everything else is left up to the imagination fueling playful speculation.

What about climate change? Vulcan may have been very Earth-like, or even colder. With hot spots and cold areas, seasons and changing weather patterns, maybe even an ice age or two. With inhabitants of every shade and color in primitive times hunting pointy-eared mammoths when their solar system only had duel suns. Then many thousand and thousands of years ago one of their systems gas giants sparked up and became a small third sun altering the planets temp and atmosphere. The planet becomes a desert but the humanoids of all colors on Vulcan adapted.

 

[Saquist]

Ridges or horns on the cranium are typical animals that deal in regular contest of strength. Like Worf's de-evolved state in TNG. Star Trek is essentially presenting the Romulans and Klingons as having a past where they've used their craniums as blunt objects perhaps for mating contest or defense or offense.

Your explanation would be plausible, had the Romulans actually evolved separately from Vulcans. They didn't.

Yes, well if I were apt to comedic displays I'm sure I could speak according to your methods and language. But I was only stating facts.

As such even a shared genetic history is still a lineage if but only half. I didn't think I had to actually say it...but apparently I did.

So what color should Vulcans be? Judging from the skin color of Spock, Sarek, T'Pau, Selar etc. it seems to me like they have melanin or something similar to it. (Unlike, say, Cardassians, Orions, or Andorians.) Those Vulcans look like what we call "white", i.e. light beige (with the only difference being the greenish rather than pinkish hue to their skin, which is due to the color of their blood rather than the pigmentation). Why is that any more likely than Vulcans looking "black" (i.e. dark brown)?

Well I had two thoughts on the possible evolutionary paths of vulcans. One is based on the planet and the stellar environment. Vulcan is mostly a Rock/Sand White and Red environment. Just as humans are made of their environment vulcans should be as well. So vulcans should vary from the white sandish color to red.

On the other hand the vulcans also tend to have a green complexion so perhaps the vary from the white to extremely olive.

Remember Star Trek has already established that the sunlight on vulcan is so harsh that they evolved a inner eyelid to protect the retina. We know that sunlight of this level will easily tan human skin. (Sandy environments will reflect even more light)

TUVOK and his family are the only black vulcans we've seen and if they really have an anatomy similary to humans the majority of vulcans should be black not the other way around.

Well, be that as it may, let's look at it from the real world perspective - production perspective. All the Vulcans we saw before Tuvok were played by white actors who still looked white in character. If it had been decided that Vulcans couldn't look black, that would have left the following options: 1) deny all black actors the opportunity to play a Vulcan, which seems very unfair and a real shame in case someone like Tim Russ who is so good at playing a Vulcan, or 2) put a lot of makeup on the actor so his skin color would look different... either the same as the actors who had played Vulcans before - which would practically mean that the actor would be acting in "whiteface", or some other color - say, dark red, which you consider logical... Can you imagine the can of worms that would have opened? How many people would be accusing Star Trek producers of racism in either of those cases - if they refused to let black actors play Vulcans, or if they took steps to hide the color of their skin the way they never did with white actors?

Might I point out sir that many Klingons have been made from "white" actors and yet were made quite dark.

Evolution isn't all that simple. There could be a multitude of reasons for the variation in skin tone, even in an Earth bound sense. Perhaps as simple as a recessive gene, a throw back from when Vulcans were darker skinned that only manifests itself along certain blood lines or perhaps every thousand Vulcan births or so, making the dark-skinned Vulcan a rarity, but conceivable.

Evolution is random chance coupled with selection, because it is the element of chance, YES, there is a multitude of expectations bound by conditions...

MORE importantly we're talking about dominance and majority not recessive traits. None of this however isolates away the deduction that IF humans and vulcans are quite that similar as the TNG episode revealing the connection is then why are not the Dark skin Vulcans not in dominance.

Or... Perhaps the "black Vulcans" suffer from a genetic skin disorder like a reverse Vitiligo, or a pigment condition similar to albinos on Earth.

A genetic deformity.

Or... Considering also that apparently Vulcans have been a space faring race for the last few thousand some years (or many more), any number of influences could exist. Perhaps a Vulcan colony was founded a few thousand years ago on a sister planet in the same system as Vulcan and developed such protective skin alterations based on what ever environmental influences they may have encountered.

And... Spock mentions that perhaps Vulcans (and Romulans) are themselves ancestors of Sargon's race from "Return to Tomorrow" allowing for other unknown genetic influences to be at play. On that point, while possibly a bit more far fetched, any number of alien races may have had a hand in Vulcan development, in some way and not limited to genetically, beyond planetary conditions developing Vulcan evolution.

That's interesting I ...vaguely remember this but that's an interesting perspective. But not to...disregard what you've said but I must ask how does this directly impact my statements?

There's always realistic plausibities in a sci-fi universe, which may have been taken into consideration when they cast Tim Russ as Tuvok. He was simply perfect for the role first and foremost, after that everything else is left up to the imagination fueling playful speculation.

I've never seen Russ act in anything else...I can't claim he's acting himself like the Will Smith of old did in "Fresh Prince of Belair."

 

[DevilEyes]

Might I point out sir that many Klingons have been made from "white" actors and yet were made quite dark.

I think you're aware that making black actors light-skinned most likely would not have been treated the same. In other words, I doubt that many people would cry racism because Robert O'Reilly's skin looks darker and accuse Trek of hiding his real skin color, but I'm not sure that it wouldn't have been the case if Tim Russ had had "white" makeup. Heck, didn't that comedy show, whatitsname, accuse TNG of hiding the faces of its black actors behind prosthetics, or however they put it? (Yes, it is a weird thing to complain about, and yes, it doesn't really make sense.)

 

[Saquist]

Might I point out sir that many Klingons have been made from "white" actors and yet were made quite dark.

I think you're aware that making black actors light-skinned most likely would not have been treated the same. In other words, I doubt that many people would cry racism because Robert O'Reilly's skin looks darker and accuse Trek of hiding his real skin color, but I'm not sure that it wouldn't have been the case if Tim Russ had had "white" makeup. Heck, didn't that comedy show, whatitsname, accuse TNG of hiding the faces of its black actors behind prosthetics, or however they put it? (Yes, it is a weird thing to complain about, and yes, it doesn't really make sense.)

According to history, actors perceived doing Black Face routines have been the most controversial. The Waynes Brothers did do a film doing "White Face".

But for a serious role I don't know.

 

[Yug]

Evolution is random chance coupled with selection, because it is the element of chance, YES, there is a multitude of expectations bound by conditions...

MORE importantly we're talking about dominance and majority not recessive traits. None of this however isolates away the deduction that IF humans and vulcans are quite that similar as the TNG episode revealing the connection is then why are not the Dark skin Vulcans not in dominance.

But that's the point, other factors could be at play beyond a similarity to humans. Anywhere from climate change (as another poster made note of) or even racial genocide in the early era that barbaric Vulcans were constantly at war with each other... or any other explanation. The speculation is really open ended.

And... Spock mentions that perhaps Vulcans (and Romulans) are themselves ancestors of Sargon's race from "Return to Tomorrow" allowing for other unknown genetic influences to be at play. On that point, while possibly a bit more far fetched, any number of alien races may have had a hand in Vulcan development, in some way and not limited to genetically, beyond planetary conditions developing Vulcan evolution.

That's interesting I ...vaguely remember this but that's an interesting perspective. But not to...disregard what you've said but I must ask how does this directly impact my statements?

It doesn't, not directly. I'm just exploring alternate theories regarding influences beyond enviromental.

There's always realistic plausibities in a sci-fi universe, which may have been taken into consideration when they cast Tim Russ as Tuvok. He was simply perfect for the role first and foremost, after that everything else is left up to the imagination fueling playful speculation.

I've never seen Russ act in anything else...I can't claim he's acting himself like the Will Smith of old did in "Fresh Prince of Belair."

I was refering to the possible mindset of the producer's of Voyager when they cast Russ. I make the assumption that they didn't consult your opinion when making the final casting choices.

 

[Saquist]

But that's the point, other factors could be at play beyond a similarity to humans. Anywhere from climate change (as another poster made note of) or even racial genocide in the early era that barbaric Vulcans were constantly at war with each other... or any other explanation. The speculation is really open ended.

I don't think Vulcans climate has changed too dramatically and canon doesn't speak to it either.

I suppose it's possible that the murder rate would advance certain genetic traits yet several thousand years is enough time for those traits to recede because of environmental influences. I completely expect by this point for the majority to be darker in skin color, despite the larger sized generations.

This is the problem.
There hasn't been so much as a tanned Vulcan untill Tuvok came along. You it's still unclear how environmental factors influence DNA to change in this most predictable way. It's not exactly a mutation but it's definitely a reaction.

There is a distinct difference in how cells react chemically to stimuli and what is transfered to the reproductive DNA code.

I've always been curious about this.

And... Spock mentions that perhaps Vulcans (and Romulans) are themselves ancestors of Sargon's race from "Return to Tomorrow" allowing for other unknown genetic influences to be at play. On that point, while possibly a bit more far fetched, any number of alien races may have had a hand in Vulcan development, in some way and not limited to genetically, beyond planetary conditions developing Vulcan evolution.

It doesn't, not directly. I'm just exploring alternate theories regarding influences beyond enviromental.

Gotcha.

I was refering to the mindset of the producer's of Voyager when they cast Russ. I make the assumption that they didn't consult your opinion when making the final casting choices.

Indeed but also obvious.

 

[Yug]

But that's the point, other factors could be at play beyond a similarity to humans. Anywhere from climate change (as another poster made note of) or even racial genocide in the early era that barbaric Vulcans were constantly at war with each other... or any other explanation. The speculation is really open ended.

I don't think Vulcans climate has changed too dramatically and canon doesn't speak to it either.

But neither canon nor your opinion rules it out. So, the possibility still exists, as do many others.

It doesn't, not directly. I'm just exploring alternate theories regarding influences beyond enviromental.

Gotcha.

Got me how? I'm free to bring up ideas and go down avenues in my posts that don't directly respond to yours, even if I quote you. I responded to your quote and then I went beyond it.

I was refering to the mindset of the producer's of Voyager when they cast Russ. I make the assumption that they didn't consult your opinion when making the final casting choices.

Indeed but also obvious.

Yeah, and see I thought it was pretty obvious the first time around too... still do.

 

[Shazam!]

I expect my characters to be interesting without them being autistic or "damaged" just to appeal to some inane concept that "different" means better..

So I guess you hated Quinto's Spock.

 

[Michael]

TUVOK and his family are the only black vulcans we've seen and if they really have an anatomy similary to humans the majority of vulcans should be black not the other way around.

Which is an odd statement considering how often the Star Trek shows have emphasized how different Vulcans are from humans anatonmically.

I'm still not sure why we even have this whole discussion about Tuvok's skin color, but if one really needs an answer to this, it is probably worth to consider that – according to the oh-so-holy Star Trek canon – Tuvok actually originates from the Vulcanis Lunar Colony; not Vulcan. His skin color could very well be the result of that background.

 

[Saquist]

But neither canon nor your opinion rules it out. So, the possibility still exists, as do many others.

My opinion is irrelevant to canon.
Concerning canon, it doesn't need to rule anything out it merely needs to exist before being valid. There's canon based speculation and then there is just conjecture what-if's and sometimes that's based on reality to fill in the gaps.



Got me how? I'm free to bring up ideas and go down avenues in my posts that don't directly respond to yours, even if I quote you. I responded to your quote and then I went beyond it.

Yeah, and see I thought it was pretty obvious the first time around too... still do.

Then what's the point in stating the obvious, if it's not being contradicted?

So I guess you hated Quinto's Spock.

Negative.
I found his portrayal accurate and convincing to the Spock Character of TOS.

Which is an odd statement considering how often the Star Trek shows have emphasized how different Vulcans are from humans anatonmically.

And yet their skeletal structure is exactly the same
Their exterior arrangement is markedly similar
They can make with humans

Which must mean they are of the same genome for it is absolutely unknown for two different genomes to be capable of mating.

So...obviously, not different enough

I'm still not sure why we even have this whole discussion about Tuvok's skin color, but if one really needs an answer to this, it is probably worth to consider that – according to the oh-so-holy Star Trek canon – Tuvok actually originates from the Vulcanis Lunar Colony; not Vulcan. His skin color could very well be the result of that background.

Wait. Vulcan has no moons.
Even if it did, what is the genetic explanation for that development?

 

[SFRabid]

Maybe there are now black Vulcans because Hollywood chooses not to discriminate when casting those parts. Maybe someday fans will be as accepting.

As humans are not all the same color, neither are cats, dogs, horses, ants, etc... Why should be expect life on other planets to be made up of species without color variants?

 

[Michael]

Which is an odd statement considering how often the Star Trek shows have emphasized how different Vulcans are from humans anatonmically.

And yet their skeletal structure is exactly the same
Their exterior arrangement is markedly similar
They can make with humans

Which must mean they are of the same genome for it is absolutely unknown for two different genomes to be capable of mating.

So...obviously, not different enough

What the fuck? On the one hand you only want to consider canon sources, but on the other hand you're always entering your own considerations into the equation. You can't have it both ways with this. Either you accept that Star Trek tells us Vulcans have a different anatomy from humans or you apply your own opinions and come to whatever conclusion you want about their anatomy.

It's pretty simple, really: Star Trek tells us there is an alien species known as Vulcans. Star Trek tells us Vulcans have a different anatomy than humans. Ergo: The dermal coloration of Vulcans does in no way have to work like that of humans.

Wait. Vulcan has no moons.

And? There's nothing saying a settlement called "Vulcanis Lunar Colony" has to be on a Vulcan moon.

 

[Yug]

But neither canon nor your opinion rules it out. So, the possibility still exists, as do many others.

My opinion is irrelevant to canon.

Yes... I know.

Concerning canon, it doesn't need to rule anything out it merely needs to exist before being valid. There's canon based speculation and then there is just conjecture what-if's and sometimes that's based on reality to fill in the gaps.

Ugh... Yes, and there's nothing wrong with that. In my mind, playful speculation is fun and imaginitive. Until canon depicts otherwise, what's the harm?

And honestly Saquist my friend, all the hair splitting is just becoming tiresome. I just wanna talk about ideas and concepts. But on any level it's very hard to communicate with you so I'm gonna move on, have a nice day.

 

[Saquist]

Maybe there are now black Vulcans because Hollywood chooses not to discriminate when casting those parts. Maybe someday fans will be as accepting.

As humans are not all the same color, neither are cats, dogs, horses, ants, etc... Why should be expect life on other planets to be made up of species without color variants?

Looking for consistency in canon is haphazard.
The only conclusion is that I can come to is that which you've already posted. I've seen no better explanation represented in canon

The TNG episode linking all the humanoid species together explains the similarities but then in Vulcan's case just doesn't make make sense when it comes to skin color.

See, it was my understanding that the low profile eyes of the east Asian populations should look similar to vulcans as apparently it's a reaction to light.

"The eyes of the Chinese, Japanese, Eskimos, and other people of Mongoloid (of or pertaining to or characteristic of one of the traditional racial division of humankind including especially peoples of central and eastern Asia) descent are protected by epicanthic folds. These folds, composed of fatty tissue, probably evolved among their forebears inhabiting the Arctic in order to insulate the eye against freezing, and to provide an additional shield against glare from snow and ice."

But neither canon nor your opinion rules it out. So, the possibility still exists, as do many others.

My opinion is irrelevant to canon.

Yes... I know.

Concerning canon, it doesn't need to rule anything out it merely needs to exist before being valid. There's canon based speculation and then there is just conjecture what-if's and sometimes that's based on reality to fill in the gaps.

Ugh... Yes, and there's nothing wrong with that. In my mind, playful speculation is fun and imaginitive. Until canon depicts otherwise, what's the harm?

And honestly Saquist my friend, all the hair splitting is just becoming tiresome. I just wanna talk about ideas and concepts. But on any level it's very hard to communicate with you so I'm gonna move on, have a nice day.

Good bye.

Which is an odd statement considering how often the Star Trek shows have emphasized how different Vulcans are from humans anatonmically.

And yet their skeletal structure is exactly the same
Their exterior arrangement is markedly similar
They can make with humans

Which must mean they are of the same genome for it is absolutely unknown for two different genomes to be capable of mating.

So...obviously, not different enough

On the one hand you only want to consider canon sources, but on the other hand you're always entering your own considerations into the equation. You can't have it both ways with this. Either you accept that Star Trek tells us Vulcans have a different anatomy from humans or you apply your own opinions and come to whatever conclusion you want about their anatomy.

Drawing Conclusion from canon through deduction and baseless conjecture are not the same. I prefer the former not the latter.

According to canon they can mate.
Scientifically it's not conjecture to say they aren't different but it is speculation form the point of view of canon.

It's pretty simple, really: Star Trek tells us there is an alien species known as Vulcans. Star Trek tells us Vulcans have a different anatomy than humans. Ergo: The dermal coloration of Vulcans does in no way have to work like that of humans.

That may be the case only if you exclude the breeding aspects. I do not exclusion for conclusions personally. It's too arbitrary.

Wait. Vulcan has no moons.

And? There's nothing saying a settlement called "Vulcanis Lunar Colony" has to be on a Vulcan moon.

I assumed that was a spelling Error..Vulcanis /Vulcan's
still what is the genetic explanation for that development?

 

[Hopeful Romantic]

So how 'bout those Mets, eh?

This extended sidebar regarding Vucan pigmentation has been interesting, but it appears to have taken over the thread, and perhaps chased off some folks who might want to discuss the original topic.

It would seem that there will be questions that cannot ever be answered definitively because canon does not specifically address them. In such cases, I think creative speculation can be quite compelling. It's fun to come up with Trekverse-friendly reasons why, for example, Kor looked much darker-skinned than Koloth, but at the end of the day, these are TV shows, and the characters are played by actors selected because of their various talents, and their appearance has a lot to do with casting and makeup artists and prosthetics experts, and everyone's just trying to tell a good story.

(I seem to recall that the Kor reference photos used by the makeup artists were too light, thus the appearance of Koloth.)

Let's steer things back to a comparison of the ST XI cast vs. the Enterprise cast, shall we? If someone wants to start a new thread to continue the analysis of Vulcan evolution, by all means go for it.

It's apples and oranges for me. The ENT cast created compelling characters out of whole cloth, and, at least in Jolene Blalock's case, had to work against expectations set up by actor portrayals of Vulcans that came before. They then had to evolve those characters over four years - some more successfully than others.

By contrast, the ST09 actors had to tread the fine line between impersonation and interpretation. Their characters were already familiar and well defined; they really gave us "echoes" of people we already knew, albeit in their future state. Karl Urban, for example, gave us a hint of McCoy, but we filled in the gaps with what we remembered of DeForrest Kelley's character. I'm sure it took a lot of restraint to walk that tightrope.

So, both types of performance, from both casts, were difficult in my opinion. I can't say one was better than the other.

This pretty much sums up my take. I think both casts did a good job, for different reasons, such as those cited by bluedana, but I really can't say that one is better than the other. I enjoyed watching them both.

 

[Mr Pointy Ears]

It no contest here, i didnt like the so called "new"' trek movie,and ok Enterprise did have more bad moments than good ones,but they try to continue the roddenberry idea of the future, i didnt see in ST09.So i choose enterprsie over st09

 

[Mach5]

It no contest here, i didnt like the so called "new"' trek movie,and ok Enterprise did have more bad moments than good ones,but they try to continue the roddenberry idea of the future, i didnt see in ST09.

Yeah, I agree, those skirts in ST09 just weren't short enough...

 

[Middleman]

So how 'bout those Mets, eh?

Hey ... Hey ... Hey! That's my baseball team you're talking about. Remember ... we don't offend anyone here!