ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate!!!

[emily_reich]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

ok, i didn't get to read through everyone's comments, so if i repeat something, my apologies

but just a few little things... and although i doubt most of them will ever change, it's kinda disappointing to see it happening here...

1. when people pop into otherwise positive threads and post one-liners like "it sucked" or "it was a load of crap... why would anyone want to watch it", not only does it sound a tid bit immature (i'm trying to keep this nice ) but it's rude and unneccessary. usually they get warned for it, but not always... i mean, it's not that it's hard to ignore those type of comments, but frankly i don't think they should really be happening in the first place...

just my opinion of course, but personally, i have NO problem with people who have a different opinion as me, and NO problems with having discussions and debates, but when people just post those one-liners it's fairly annoying...

2. 'shipper wars... although it's kinda calmed down slightly recently since we kinda started an unofficial truce on both major sides, it can still get ridiculous at its best and violent at its worst... they can go anywhere from making fun of and insulting other posters to actually making threats on the actors on the show and it can be really violent and scary sometimes...

obviously, there's NOTHING wrong with healthy, happy debate (i do that all the time and personally enjoy it ) but when people are flat-out insluting otehr people's opinions, stating their opinions as fact, and saying others are WRONG for having a different opinion, that's going very much too far IMO... i try to avoid those threads, but i've seen some that get very bad...

and the worst part of that is that it's, frankly, for no reason...



i think that's the only two MAJOR things that bother me... i suppose if i thin kof more i may express my concerns, but that's all for now

 

[Ptrope]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by Galactus:
Things that bother me

As someone said people actually expecting you to read all their rather lengthy posts every single time they make them.

No one said that; the comment was made about those who are generally dismissive about such posts, or who misrepresent them through paraphrased or misquoted excerpts in their responses. No one insists anyone read their lengthy posts, but if someone responds to such, the very least they should do is read them fully and not simply hit high points in order to compose an attack in response.

People who compare an episode of Enterprise to every single other Star Trek series episode ever made or better yet every single thing ever done whether TV show, movie, book, or anything else no matter how obscure the reference may be.

Why is this a problem? ENT doesn't exist in a vacuum, and hopefully its fans don't, either. How can even a fan form a valid opinion of ENT without a basis of comparison?

I dislike the fact that people constantly comment on a show that they say the hate or dislike. There opinions never waiver and is consistantly negative. I think this fosters hostility because I don't think the average person thinks it is rationale to watch a show you totally hate. I don't see how you can discuss a show that that you do not like at all on some level. Apparently though the board rules say it is ok so I it is therefore acceptable, but I really don't see how you can have a positive discussion with someone that only has negative opinions about the show.

I thought this was already pretty well covered in this thread. The very first thing it seems we should dispense with on this forum is the expectation that people should defend why they watch ENT or anything. They do. And then they like to discuss it. Now, whether they love it or hate it is pretty much irrelevant if they have something to say and they say it with respect to their fellow members. I don't think being critical of the show, even on a constant basis, fosters any more hostility than the insistence that the board is only for praise of the show; these sorts of personal issues are best left at the doorway on the way in. One also can't presume that a person who criticizes the show, even strongly and regularly, also 'hates' the show; a teacher who constantly grades a student low based upon his performance, and who constantly suggests ways the student could improve his skills, doesn't hate the student. I think it's entirely possible to have a positive discussion with someone who has negative opinions of the show; the trick is in remembering that those opinions are of the show, not of yourself.

 

[Nephandus]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

If you don’t like it, go watch something else.

I just saw yet another person saying this in yet another Enterprise thread.
This upsets me on three levels. [edit - a whole third level added]

First, the hypocrisy of the statement is annoying. Turnabout is fair play isn’t it? How about, “If you don’t like reading criticism and dissent, then why do you come to a BBS, over and over again? If you don’t like reading criticism, then why would you post to a BBS to say so when the easier option is not to?” It’s the same argument. Pot, meet kettle.

Second, as Digits pointed out, it has this sense of “justify your presence to me” that is simply unwarranted. I don’t demand that people justify their presence in the forum. It’s rude, and it’s always a distraction from the discussion.

You know, there is a thread in the VOY forum called "Why has the Voy forum been slow lately" where they are discussing the exodus of thoughtful critics, largely the result of overzealous defence of the program. Several forum regulars have commented that what's left are trolls and fun and fluff threads, and that the forum has diminished because of it. Difference of opinion is the engine of a BBS. Beware what you wish for.

Thirdly, these comments are often knitted to some context of "why do you waste your time criticizing." How is this time spent more frivolously than coming to a BBS to praise or exalt an episode? Is THAT more important work? Of course not - it's all time a-wasted on a BBS, so again, don't be a hypocrite and tell me I'm wasting time unless you are going to look in the mirror.

 

[Nephandus]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by Galactus:
People who compare an episode of Enterprise to every single other Star Trek series episode ever made

I'm not sure what you are saying here. Are you talking about the annoying tendency to attempt to rebutt criticisms of dramatic errors in Enterprise by pointing out similar errors in made on TOS or DS9, as if this somehow refutes the argument?

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by Miss Thang:
On the one hand you can say that if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. If you don't value your own opinion enough, get off the board. But I think that truly sucks and that shouldn't be the case.

I've always disliked that attitude as well -- and perhaps it is rather more a male than female posture, but it's certainly a popular internet posture: the notion of Combat By Conversation, wherein all really worthwhile exchange of idea involves confrontation and conflict.

The funny thing is, those of us who do a lot of it F2F become unpopular at dinner parties. God knows I'm more argumentative on-line than I am at the office or with my friends on evenings out.

 

[The Tone]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by Tripped Trucker XIII:
Nice discussion here, but I still adhere to the "If you don't like it, don't watch it (and don't come here bothering us either)" statement. They might be old as heck, but so are the Ten Commandments.

Respectfully,
TT13

Interesting. I like the way this potentially inflamitory statement against those who criticize the show was swaddled in an equally inflamitory religious blanket. Nice handywork. Really.

But I personally am not inflamed by it. I'm actually perplexed.

This is the kind of comment never makes sense to me. In my case, for example, I recently enjoyed "Twilight," giving it an A-, while a few weeks back I gave the woeful "Exile" a D+. So by the logic of "If you don't like it, don't watch it" then I had no business watching "Twilight" because I generally do not like the show.

Why do I watch? Because Enterprise is Star Trek. I am Star Trek fan. Everyone on this board is a Star Trek fan. We all share this in common. Critics may not like Enterprise, but they watch it because it's Star Trek, and no matter how bad Enterprise arguably gets, it still has the chance to become Star Trek - in the eyes of the critic, that is.

This is along the lines of what Raz was saying: but my contribution to this discussion is the questioning of the terms "basher" and "gusher." I find these terms derogatory and a very mild form of bigotry actually. I never use these terms. I would never label someone a "gusher" or a "basher" because I believe anyone has the right to change their opinion of the show depending on the quality of any given episode. So, whenever I read a post that states "I disagree with the bashers.." or "those gushers say that.." I tend to skip it, because I find it not only inflamitory, but untrue. What exactly is a "basher"or a "gusher?" They're just labels for supposed groups of people whose membership shifts from week to week. By definition, neither group can speak with a unified voice. Therefore, please don't assume they do.

I guess what I'd like to see in the forum is less "labeling." I'd like everyone to realize that we're all Star Trek fans.

 

[Lady Conqueror]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

^(In reply to Dennis)

I think it's more of an anonymous internet face thing than strictly a gender thing.

Chances are you will never met anyone with whom you disagree strongly/argue with in real life F2F - so who cares if you hurt their feelings or are rude to them.

 

[Nephandus]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by Lady Conqueror:
^(In reply to Dennis)

I think it's more of an anonymous internet face thing than strictly a gender thing.

Chances are you will never met anyone with whom you disagree strongly/argue with in real life F2F - so who cares if you hurt their feelings or are rude to them.

I also think it is a particular element of the medium. Agreements, once reached, are no longer interesting and are dropped from the thread. Disagreements are always carried through to the next iteration. The result is an exagerration of difference in what are often nuanced positions. I sometimes wonder if this is a source of the fanboy SW vs ST wars.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

I almost feel a group hug coming on...but that Buck Rogers Nosferatu is giving me the willies. I may have to resurrect the Psychotic Annie Coulter avatar to defend myself.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by Dennis Bailey:
I almost feel a group hug coming on...but that Buck Rogers Nosferatu is giving me the willies. I may have to resurrect the Psychotic Annie Coulter avatar to defend myself.

So that's what that is. I thought it was the love child of Quark and Frida Kahlo.

Mike

 

[Blue]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

I haven't read everyone's posts, but I'll just echo Ptrope and say that criticism is not hatred. I enjoy a healthy debate, and it's kind of disappointing when you get the occasional poster coming in to throw basher/gusher accusations around.

 

[commodore64]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

To Blue and Tome, if it makes any difference (which it probably doesn't), I've found both of you to be quite nice and have interesting thoughts. Criticism is always great, as long as it's kind and not a diatribe that has nothing to do with the topic.

And, after seeing posts from both of you that I disagree with, I can honestly type I still respect you in the morning and agree on other points.

So, keep giving a D to episodes and opening up dialogue about parents and Trek.

 

[Blue]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by commodore64:
To Blue and Tome, if it makes any difference (which it probably doesn't), I've found both of you to be quite nice and have interesting thoughts. Criticism is always great, as long as it's kind and not a diatribe that has nothing to do with the topic.

And, after seeing posts from both of you that I disagree with, I can honestly type I still respect you in the morning and agree on other points.

So, keep giving a D to episodes and opening up dialogue about parents and Trek.

Thanks, commodore. I also feel the same way about your posts. It's definitely possible to disagree on stuff and have a normal conversation.

 

[The Tone]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by commodore64:
To Blue and Tome, if it makes any difference (which it probably doesn't), I've found both of you to be quite nice and have interesting thoughts.

It does make a difference. Thank you, commodore64. Likewise.

Posted by commodore64:
I can honestly type I still respect you in the morning...

But the name's Tone not Tome. How can you respect me in the morning when you can't even remember my name? I feel so cheap...

 

[stubadingdong]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Just to add a little to the discussion, I used to post here quite a bit. But I was one of those who got so tired of being told that my opinion of the show, or aspects of it, was wrong. It grew tiresome after a while to be told repeatedly that my opinion was invalid in the eyes of others. That is my main beef.

I'm all for a good discussion/debate. I've found a home elsewhere, and as those folks can confirm, I often change my mind about certain scenes after reading others' input. I'm bendy that way by nature. But when I'm told flat out that I'm wrong for seeing something so very subjective, then I tend to get a bit rankled and defensive. Human nature, I suppose.

In short, if people can post with tact and respect (note: respecting someone's opinion doesn't mean you have to agree with them) I think a lot of tensions would be eased and this would be a far better place to conduct adult discussions.

 

[Jack Bauer]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by Blue:
I haven't read everyone's posts, but I'll just echo Ptrope and say that criticism is not hatred. I enjoy a healthy debate, and it's kind of disappointing when you get the occasional poster coming in to throw basher/gusher accusations around.

Most of the time that's true but constant and unrelenting criticism and put downs can be like hatred. If someone constantly criticized you it would be verbally abusive in real life.

 

[Miss Thang]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Raz, I like your "Notify Moderator" ideas.

[/b]emily[/b], I agree about the damn 'shipper war thing. It was fun talking abuot potential romantic pairings for awhile, and then things got personal and nasty. Who T'Pol ultimately boffs is just not bloody worth it, and I checked out of those threads early on.

stub! Glad to see you here!

Finally, I think the "ENT Meta-Thread" should be a permanent, pinned thing. When people have tried to start ENT-specific discussions in the past, the threads were whooshed off to MA because of the specific functions of the fora. To me, ENT-specific stuff should stay in-house, and by that I don't mean every single ENT complaint. Poster issues could still be sent to MA or QSF. But things actually about the forum--community-related stuff if you will--could most profitably remain here.

I say this because I think a lot of fora construct themselves as communities. (If you don't believe me, look at this summer's complaints over TNZ. The fighting wasn't just over the changes but for some it was about changing the nature of the community without the consent of the community itself.) I think sometimes MA threads become a forum for smartass posters (including moderators from time to time) from all over the board, many of whom who know f-all about ENT, to weigh into toss off an unhelpful one-liner or assessment. That's not helpful.

Perhaps if people feel that there's more to ENT than a bunch of threads, they'll feel more invested in the forum and treat each other with more respect. Maybe not, but it's worth trying.

I'd like to thank the mods for their modding innovation and for doing what they can to make things better here.

 

[commodore64]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by The Tone:

Posted by commodore64:
I can honestly type I still respect you in the morning...

But the name's Tone not Tome. How can you respect me in the morning when you can't even remember my name? I feel so cheap...

Me apppolageyes en me misssspilling.

~ Commiedoor 64

 

[JohnM]

I'm friends with everyone.

I don't have any problems with anyone or anything....

The Moderation is great! The Ent forum members are great!
No complaints from me!

 

[Top41]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by The Tone:
I would never label someone a "gusher" or a "basher" because I believe anyone has the right to change their opinion of the show depending on the quality of any given episode.

I wanted to quote this part of The Tone's post because I think it's absolutely key to the discussion here. Because it's impossible to keep track of how every person grades in the forum, I think a lot of people get stuck in one category or another based on reputation or assumption, not on actual fact. It's possible to adore 1 episode and hate the next. Or love 5 episodes and be indifferent to the other 21 that season. There are infinite combinations here, and I think one of the goals should be to do away with the labels that just serve to divide in here.

I would be fine with keeping this thread up in ENT permanently. When someone had a problem or issue, they could bring it here. I think that if we can form a real community in here--which is hard but definitely not impossible in a large forum--people will be more respectful of each other, just because they know each other better. To touch on something Dennis said, people often behave differently online than they do IRL. That's okay, as long as we don't sacrifice common courtesy. (See, Dennis, we are headed toward that big group hug you worried about! )

Another thing I'd like to mention is something that Ptrope brought up, and that's that both sides--people who like the show and people who don't--are essential for good debate. My favorite thread ever in this forum was one I made right before the second season, about Archer's leadership skills. Raz and I (and others as well) had perhaps the best debate I've had n this BBS about whether Archer's compassion was an asset or a detriment to his command (that's a simplification, but you get the picture). We didn't agree on everything, but it was civil and I think because of that we were able to see each other's point-of-view. Each of us listened to what the other has to say and discussed it. We agreed on some things, not on others. My point is that I still remember that thread from over a year ago because of the great debate we had going on in it. I don't ever want to lose that in this forum.