ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate!!!
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Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate
If I may play turnaround a moment, I hate it when it's the exact opposite. A thread full of gripers trying to come to terms with what a particular episode of Ent was like, and a gusher wanders in and goes: This is the best show in the world! It's perfection! That's equally trying and inflaming to the people in that thread.
What I find particularly problematic is the pack animal nature of certain posters. If someone says one negative thing they pile in en masse to beat up on that person and not once have I seen anything done about it. I've seen threads where 6 or 7 people deserved a warning and none given. I think if group warnings were given it would make people stop and think. Similarly the number of times an instigator is ignored, but the responder is warned is very high. It's disproportionate. At the very least both should get a warning.
So, although it's a little OT, consistent and fair moderation wouldn't go a miss.
Other things in the forum. People have sigs. That's where repeated messages go. So why do some posters insist on signing each post with the same thing over and over and over again. I know it's a weird thing to get pissed off about but I see it as spam. If they want to sign off with the same thing each time, that's what the sig is there for! grr.
People whose posts sound like factory produced propaganda rather than well reasoned posts, and who repeat the same thing ad infinitum, day in and day out.
Now, I have to name a name here for illustrative purposes, but just as gushers found Stewey’s comments annoying week in and week out with thinks like 'Enterfake', I find gusher constants just as annoying. 'Perfection' (with the exception of God nothing is perfect) people who insists this is the strongest sweeps in years (when they've said the same mantra EVERY sweeps like a broken record) People who keep using the snotty phrase 'It's only a TV show' or 'Don't watch it'. Perhaps because the Mods are generally fans of the show they agree with the sentiment, but if you look at it dispassionately for a moment, in what ways are any of these comments conducive to debate? They're not, they're baiting terms aimed at the opposition.
With regards to insulting people off board (actors, writers etc) Is it right for me to hurl derogatory comments at the makers of Enterprise?
Well, since I do write novels and films for a living and have sat and participated in BBSs about my work, and I’ve read some frankly horrendous crap hurled at me – from PAID critics, who have launched vitriol that would make your hair curl (some of it personal), and since I’ve lived through it to tell the tale, I really don’t see why the makers of Enterprise should be treated with some kind of veneration.
Firstly I haven’t seen one or two of the most senior PTB be particularly respectful to the fans, and secondly, they get paid for it. If they’re churning out stuff that isn’t worth the money they got from it, the audience has the RIGHT to comment, and sometimes that’s going to be glowing, and at other times it’s going to be nasty.
Simple hateful comments, threats and comments with no substance I can’t see any point in allowing. But criticism of their work ABSOLUTELY that should be allowed. The comment from someone above about if you don’t do it, you don’t have the right to comment I found to be baloney and asinine at best. I agree, personal insults cross a line (which I’m just as guilty of as anyone else) but I don’t have to know how to build a car to know a mid-80s Skoda is a crappier product than a Porsche. To suggest otherwise is ridiculous, cynical and tyrannical.
But bear this in mind. The people who make these shows are not similarly restrained by rules. What do you do if you’ve banned personal comments, but then some producer comes out with the idiotic comment that most critical fans are 12 year olds on BBSs? Are you going to deny people the right to get personal back? You’ll be issuing a lot of warnings. Maybe one thread of hate just to let people vent about the comment is a good idea. Personally I think this are, the BBS, has already gotten right, and you tinker with it at your peril.
These people read the boards. If they’re that offended all they have to do is sign up and they can comment. Other than that, I’m very suspicious of the motives of people trying to shape the board as has been suggested above.
Oh, when someone makes a one page post and the immediate response from someone is nothing but ‘yeah right’ and some roll eyes. That IS trolling BTW. I'm not saying someone has to read the entire post, but comments should be restricted to good natured jokes, or genuine responses to the materials. One lines quips are offensive.
I could go on but I think I've written enough for now.
Posted by emily_reich:
ok, i didn't get to read through everyone's comments, so if i repeat something, my apologies
but just a few little things... and although i doubt most of them will ever change, it's kinda disappointing to see it happening here...
1. when people pop into otherwise positive threads and post one-liners like "it sucked" or "it was a load of crap... why would anyone want to watch it", not only does it sound a tid bit immature (i'm trying to keep this nice) but it's rude and unneccessary. usually they get warned for it, but not always... i mean, it's not that it's hard to ignore those type of comments, but frankly i don't think they should really be happening in the first place...
If I may play turnaround a moment, I hate it when it's the exact opposite. A thread full of gripers trying to come to terms with what a particular episode of Ent was like, and a gusher wanders in and goes: This is the best show in the world! It's perfection! That's equally trying and inflaming to the people in that thread.
What I find particularly problematic is the pack animal nature of certain posters. If someone says one negative thing they pile in en masse to beat up on that person and not once have I seen anything done about it. I've seen threads where 6 or 7 people deserved a warning and none given. I think if group warnings were given it would make people stop and think. Similarly the number of times an instigator is ignored, but the responder is warned is very high. It's disproportionate. At the very least both should get a warning.
So, although it's a little OT, consistent and fair moderation wouldn't go a miss.
Other things in the forum. People have sigs. That's where repeated messages go. So why do some posters insist on signing each post with the same thing over and over and over again. I know it's a weird thing to get pissed off about but I see it as spam. If they want to sign off with the same thing each time, that's what the sig is there for! grr.
People whose posts sound like factory produced propaganda rather than well reasoned posts, and who repeat the same thing ad infinitum, day in and day out.
Now, I have to name a name here for illustrative purposes, but just as gushers found Stewey’s comments annoying week in and week out with thinks like 'Enterfake', I find gusher constants just as annoying. 'Perfection' (with the exception of God nothing is perfect) people who insists this is the strongest sweeps in years (when they've said the same mantra EVERY sweeps like a broken record) People who keep using the snotty phrase 'It's only a TV show' or 'Don't watch it'. Perhaps because the Mods are generally fans of the show they agree with the sentiment, but if you look at it dispassionately for a moment, in what ways are any of these comments conducive to debate? They're not, they're baiting terms aimed at the opposition.
With regards to insulting people off board (actors, writers etc) Is it right for me to hurl derogatory comments at the makers of Enterprise?
Well, since I do write novels and films for a living and have sat and participated in BBSs about my work, and I’ve read some frankly horrendous crap hurled at me – from PAID critics, who have launched vitriol that would make your hair curl (some of it personal), and since I’ve lived through it to tell the tale, I really don’t see why the makers of Enterprise should be treated with some kind of veneration.
Firstly I haven’t seen one or two of the most senior PTB be particularly respectful to the fans, and secondly, they get paid for it. If they’re churning out stuff that isn’t worth the money they got from it, the audience has the RIGHT to comment, and sometimes that’s going to be glowing, and at other times it’s going to be nasty.
Simple hateful comments, threats and comments with no substance I can’t see any point in allowing. But criticism of their work ABSOLUTELY that should be allowed. The comment from someone above about if you don’t do it, you don’t have the right to comment I found to be baloney and asinine at best. I agree, personal insults cross a line (which I’m just as guilty of as anyone else) but I don’t have to know how to build a car to know a mid-80s Skoda is a crappier product than a Porsche. To suggest otherwise is ridiculous, cynical and tyrannical.
But bear this in mind. The people who make these shows are not similarly restrained by rules. What do you do if you’ve banned personal comments, but then some producer comes out with the idiotic comment that most critical fans are 12 year olds on BBSs? Are you going to deny people the right to get personal back? You’ll be issuing a lot of warnings. Maybe one thread of hate just to let people vent about the comment is a good idea. Personally I think this are, the BBS, has already gotten right, and you tinker with it at your peril.
These people read the boards. If they’re that offended all they have to do is sign up and they can comment. Other than that, I’m very suspicious of the motives of people trying to shape the board as has been suggested above.
Oh, when someone makes a one page post and the immediate response from someone is nothing but ‘yeah right’ and some roll eyes. That IS trolling BTW. I'm not saying someone has to read the entire post, but comments should be restricted to good natured jokes, or genuine responses to the materials. One lines quips are offensive.
I could go on but I think I've written enough for now.
Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate
You have a point, but I think the example you give doesn't ring true. If I recall correctly he said that some fans are 12 year olds. And he is probably right. I dont think he ever associated the most critical fans with 12 year olds. But as as is often the case the only words that stood out in his statement were "fans" and "12 years old". Which ignited the usual firestorm and accusations began to fly. At times we need to sit back and reread what was said before we hit the send button on a vitriol lace post lamblasting TBTB or another poster.
I'm also pretty hard press to find statements by TBTB that stoop to the level that many posters have in the areas of name calling, insults and disrespect. I'd much rather be called a "12 year old" than just about anything thats been hurled at Berman and Braga.
Mike
You have a point, but I think the example you give doesn't ring true. If I recall correctly he said that some fans are 12 year olds. And he is probably right. I dont think he ever associated the most critical fans with 12 year olds. But as as is often the case the only words that stood out in his statement were "fans" and "12 years old". Which ignited the usual firestorm and accusations began to fly. At times we need to sit back and reread what was said before we hit the send button on a vitriol lace post lamblasting TBTB or another poster.
I'm also pretty hard press to find statements by TBTB that stoop to the level that many posters have in the areas of name calling, insults and disrespect. I'd much rather be called a "12 year old" than just about anything thats been hurled at Berman and Braga.
Mike
Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate
I'm jumping into this late, and apologize if it seems disjointed.
Replying to one line of a long post: Sometimes if I single out one line, quote it, and respond, it simply means that I agree with the rest of the post or have no opinion on it. And I'd much rather read a post that just consists of a short quote and a reply than one that goes, "Quote -- I agree. -- Quote -- I don't know, I suppose you may have a point. -- Quote -- Yeah, OK. -- Quote -- I agree with that too. -- Quote -- Aha, now THIS I would like to reply to..." When I reply to a small part of a post, it doesn't mean I'm dismissing the rest of the post, it just means I don't have anything to say about it.
Personal criticism of people working on the show: I see your point, reno floyd, and I've received personal flak as a result of work myself as well. But the fact that it occurs other places to other people doesn't necessarily mean it should happen here. And, yes, I DO think criticism of people's work is an important part of discussions on this BBS. But it gets tiresome to see every single criticism of the show tied to a snide remark about "B&B," "Bermage," "The Killer B's," or "Those talentless hacks." For heaven's sake, more insults are leveled in the ENT forum at these two men than are leveled in TNZ at George Bush, Bill Clinton, Donald Rumsfeld and Howard Dean combined. (And I think the ground rules for those folks are very different because they are public figures in a way that a couple of TV show producers are not.) Criticising the work is fine, but I think it gets personal waaaay too often.
Bashers, Gushers and Johnny One-Notes: First of all, I don't think this problem is as severe as it's been made out to be. On the "basher" side, I think there's a very small handful of Johnny One-Notes for whom nothing Enterprise does will EVER be good enough. (In fact, when somebody said the "Interregnum" joke was cooked up by people who didn't like the show, I was surprised because I had never thought of those people as "bashers" or anything of the kind.) On the "gusher" side, I don't think there's that much of a Johnny One-Note problem either, though it varies from thread to thread. Most fans of the show seem perfectly willing to criticize aspects of it, although a few admittedly can be hypersensitive.
Where the no-comment, one-note-only posts seem to come up most frequently is in the "Rate this episode" threads. You know -- the "A+++++++++! Great episode! Perfection!" posts and the "F! This sucks! Why would anyone watch it?" posts. Besides the "Rate this episode" threads, the places where ttmpers seem to flare the most are in the "What's wrong with Enterprise" threads. Whereas if you pop into, say, one of Miss Thang's threads, you'll find a lot of intelligent discussion and very few tossed-off posts with midnless "bashing" or "gushing."
So, I have a suggestion.
Two suggestions, in fact.
1) Try changing the format of the weekly pinned episode-discussion thread: Poll threads are like multiple-choice tests instead of essay tests. Not all that conducive to discussion. Oh, you CAN have discussions in a poll thread, but they also make it very easy for peeople to toss off one-liners. It's not just the "Rate this episode" threads, it's the "Who's your favorite character?" threads that end up with folks just posting "Kirk." "Data." "Sisko." "Torres." "Trip." So... Why not instead call the thread something like The (episode Name) Scoreboard and ask people, either instead of or in addition to registering a grade, to list the pros and cons of the episode? I think tempers would flare less because there would be fewer "A+++!" "F!!!" posts for people to get mad about ... and the threads might be more interesting to read as well.
2) Try having a pinned thread for discussion of the show's direction: Do we really need three or four "What's wrong with Enterprise" threads at the same time? Couldn't these all go into one pinned thread devoted to discussion, not about individual episodes or specific topics, but rather about the show as a whole body of work? (In this thread, I think comments like "If you hate the show, why do you watch it?" should be verboten. People who don't want to read any criticism of the show can simply ignore it, and people who want to criticize the show as a whole, rather than individual points having to do with it, can have a safe place to do so.)
Any thoughts?
I'm jumping into this late, and apologize if it seems disjointed.
Replying to one line of a long post: Sometimes if I single out one line, quote it, and respond, it simply means that I agree with the rest of the post or have no opinion on it. And I'd much rather read a post that just consists of a short quote and a reply than one that goes, "Quote -- I agree. -- Quote -- I don't know, I suppose you may have a point. -- Quote -- Yeah, OK. -- Quote -- I agree with that too. -- Quote -- Aha, now THIS I would like to reply to..." When I reply to a small part of a post, it doesn't mean I'm dismissing the rest of the post, it just means I don't have anything to say about it.
Personal criticism of people working on the show: I see your point, reno floyd, and I've received personal flak as a result of work myself as well. But the fact that it occurs other places to other people doesn't necessarily mean it should happen here. And, yes, I DO think criticism of people's work is an important part of discussions on this BBS. But it gets tiresome to see every single criticism of the show tied to a snide remark about "B&B," "Bermage," "The Killer B's," or "Those talentless hacks." For heaven's sake, more insults are leveled in the ENT forum at these two men than are leveled in TNZ at George Bush, Bill Clinton, Donald Rumsfeld and Howard Dean combined. (And I think the ground rules for those folks are very different because they are public figures in a way that a couple of TV show producers are not.) Criticising the work is fine, but I think it gets personal waaaay too often.
Bashers, Gushers and Johnny One-Notes: First of all, I don't think this problem is as severe as it's been made out to be. On the "basher" side, I think there's a very small handful of Johnny One-Notes for whom nothing Enterprise does will EVER be good enough. (In fact, when somebody said the "Interregnum" joke was cooked up by people who didn't like the show, I was surprised because I had never thought of those people as "bashers" or anything of the kind.) On the "gusher" side, I don't think there's that much of a Johnny One-Note problem either, though it varies from thread to thread. Most fans of the show seem perfectly willing to criticize aspects of it, although a few admittedly can be hypersensitive.
Where the no-comment, one-note-only posts seem to come up most frequently is in the "Rate this episode" threads. You know -- the "A+++++++++! Great episode! Perfection!" posts and the "F! This sucks! Why would anyone watch it?" posts. Besides the "Rate this episode" threads, the places where ttmpers seem to flare the most are in the "What's wrong with Enterprise" threads. Whereas if you pop into, say, one of Miss Thang's threads, you'll find a lot of intelligent discussion and very few tossed-off posts with midnless "bashing" or "gushing."
So, I have a suggestion.
Two suggestions, in fact.
1) Try changing the format of the weekly pinned episode-discussion thread: Poll threads are like multiple-choice tests instead of essay tests. Not all that conducive to discussion. Oh, you CAN have discussions in a poll thread, but they also make it very easy for peeople to toss off one-liners. It's not just the "Rate this episode" threads, it's the "Who's your favorite character?" threads that end up with folks just posting "Kirk." "Data." "Sisko." "Torres." "Trip." So... Why not instead call the thread something like The (episode Name) Scoreboard and ask people, either instead of or in addition to registering a grade, to list the pros and cons of the episode? I think tempers would flare less because there would be fewer "A+++!" "F!!!" posts for people to get mad about ... and the threads might be more interesting to read as well.
2) Try having a pinned thread for discussion of the show's direction: Do we really need three or four "What's wrong with Enterprise" threads at the same time? Couldn't these all go into one pinned thread devoted to discussion, not about individual episodes or specific topics, but rather about the show as a whole body of work? (In this thread, I think comments like "If you hate the show, why do you watch it?" should be verboten. People who don't want to read any criticism of the show can simply ignore it, and people who want to criticize the show as a whole, rather than individual points having to do with it, can have a safe place to do so.)
Any thoughts?
Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate
Lady C asked me to put my two penn'oth in here so, for what it's worth, (probably not a farthing)...
I agree that the under-the-line-of-Trolling insults, rudeness and disrespect makes this place hard to like at times.
I love Star Trek Enterprise, but I've had some fun discussions with Stewey, Volpone, even Reno (!
), who clearly don't. I've also had some great fun here in threads with Miss Thang, Odie and the lovely Lady C amongst many many more. From the deep, considered posts of Ptrope to the directness of Breadfan, most everyone here is fascinating and worth knowing.
But yesterday just stating an opinion got me told that I don't have a clue what I'm talking about and that if I wanted to understand unpleasantness I should 'look in a mirror'. Without flaming anyone, or even mentioning a real person, just stating my own opinion got those nasty phrases flung in my face. I was, and I am, very upset and hurt about this. So much so that I've decided to lurk for a while with a view to unsubbing. Is it worth it, after all, being here just to get that? The other posters who were so rude could have made their points without being rude and nasty.
Most times, if a post of mine has produced signs of being taken or mistaken in a hurtful way, I apologise. Backed up with another apology PM'd if I feel I owe a personal 'sorry, I fucked up. Please forgive,' to someone. It's only fair. We all have vulnerable days and angry days when we say what we ought not. And speaking by smiley is not an exact science. (I've just trapped my finger in a car door =
, I've got something in my eye = , Help I think I'm turning into a snake = 
, you see?)
Politeness costs nothing. Is it too hard to read your post through and delete the stuff that will hurt someone for no reason before you hit send?
Lady C asked me to put my two penn'oth in here so, for what it's worth, (probably not a farthing)...
I agree that the under-the-line-of-Trolling insults, rudeness and disrespect makes this place hard to like at times.
I love Star Trek Enterprise, but I've had some fun discussions with Stewey, Volpone, even Reno (!
), who clearly don't. I've also had some great fun here in threads with Miss Thang, Odie and the lovely Lady C amongst many many more. From the deep, considered posts of Ptrope to the directness of Breadfan, most everyone here is fascinating and worth knowing.But yesterday just stating an opinion got me told that I don't have a clue what I'm talking about and that if I wanted to understand unpleasantness I should 'look in a mirror'. Without flaming anyone, or even mentioning a real person, just stating my own opinion got those nasty phrases flung in my face. I was, and I am, very upset and hurt about this. So much so that I've decided to lurk for a while with a view to unsubbing. Is it worth it, after all, being here just to get that? The other posters who were so rude could have made their points without being rude and nasty.
Most times, if a post of mine has produced signs of being taken or mistaken in a hurtful way, I apologise. Backed up with another apology PM'd if I feel I owe a personal 'sorry, I fucked up. Please forgive,' to someone. It's only fair. We all have vulnerable days and angry days when we say what we ought not. And speaking by smiley is not an exact science. (I've just trapped my finger in a car door =
, I've got something in my eye = , Help I think I'm turning into a snake = , you see?)Politeness costs nothing. Is it too hard to read your post through and delete the stuff that will hurt someone for no reason before you hit send?
Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate
I don't have a problem with either denying people the right to make personal insults or issuing a lot of warnings for violating the rule against personal insults. The argument that some people elsewhere aren't constrained by the TrekBBS rules really isn't relevant unless they're posting on the TrekBBS.
I mean, come on -- it's against the rules to respond with an insult to someone here who calls you a butthead by name. Most people live with that rule with no problem (not necessarily me). So why shouldn't it be against the rules to make personally nasty remarks directed at someone who didn't insult you personally and has no idea who you are, simply because you choose to identify yourself with the people they're bashing?
It's hard to imagine people taking the general comments of strangers (someone somewhere speaking disparagingly of "fans") to heart and feeling the need to respond personally to people they'll never meet even online.
I don't have a problem with either denying people the right to make personal insults or issuing a lot of warnings for violating the rule against personal insults. The argument that some people elsewhere aren't constrained by the TrekBBS rules really isn't relevant unless they're posting on the TrekBBS.
I mean, come on -- it's against the rules to respond with an insult to someone here who calls you a butthead by name. Most people live with that rule with no problem (not necessarily me
). So why shouldn't it be against the rules to make personally nasty remarks directed at someone who didn't insult you personally and has no idea who you are, simply because you choose to identify yourself with the people they're bashing? It's hard to imagine people taking the general comments of strangers (someone somewhere speaking disparagingly of "fans") to heart and feeling the need to respond personally to people they'll never meet even online.
G
Guest
Guest
Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate
Reno, et al--allow me to clarify for you the issues involved with vitriolic attacks on the show's producers and writers,etc.
Someone may write films, novels, and great grocery lists, but they don't work on this show, they don't work on television in general, and they have little idea of the day-to-day histrionics involved therein. Therefore, a person can dislike the product as much as they want, but it is presumptive and very offensive to read their commentary on the people making the product, and WHAT THEY GO THROUGH to make the product. The derogatory statements "hurled", as you so aptly put it, are way out of line, and not only are they offensive to the people they target, but they are disgusting to those of us with enough common sense and consideration to recognize a cheap shot when we see one. No one likes to stand around a school yard and watch a bully beat the crap out of another kid. Is the bully somehow justified in doing so because he too has to wear the same kind of shoes as his victim? Absolutely not. Whether or not someone has endured criticism of their work doesn't necessarily translate to "everyone gets to see the same sh*t poor me has had to see". I'll tell you right now, the comments here in these threads about writing ability and production quality, and why so-and-so character should NEVER have been introduced into the "correct" Trek timeline, etc. are tame compared to those handed out and taken in the real studio, in the real writers' meetings, and in the real memos sent out. So please don't give these cheap shots any more credit than they are due. What you say is not affecting the producers nearly as much as it's irritating some of us.
You don't have to build cars to like a Porsche, but I'm pretty damn sure you don't call the makers of the Skoda and lecture them on their craft. They'd hang up on you, and sue you for slander, to boot. You are not qualified to tell someone how to do their thing unless you do it. You are more than entitled to tell them what you think of it, and how you would like it to be. Especially if you're a loyal, long-time customer, you are EXPECTED to voice your opinion on how to better the product you're expected buy. That's what makes a better product. But you are not endowed with any superior knowledge or experience that somehow entitles you to tell them how to run their factories, how to train their engineers, and when to pee on breaks. YOU DON'T DO WHAT THEY DO. So don't presume authority for doing it.
You are a fan. So be one. Fans occupy a unique and very essential space in the land of television. Fans provide feedback. NOT INSTRUCTIONS. Fans provide, or at their discretion, rescind ratings. Fans do not walk through the 16-18 hour workday at the studio, location scouts and offices. FANS make or break a show's run. They do not MAKE the show RUN.
The difference is important. Please consider it. Please comprehend it. Sometimes the attacks are made not because of the job being done, but because of WHO is doing the job. THAT'S tyrannical, asinine, cynical, ridiculous, etc.
Which leads me, in my novel of a post, to something I neglected to spell out explicitly in my other post:
It is extremely
to hear the phrase "TPTB don't respect the fans, they don't deserve anything they have, they owe it all to us, we're all being screwed over, they never listen, they hate us, they call us names, woe is me, the best fan ever and the only person who can and should save Trek". You want to play that lonely violin, then of course you should expect to be compared to a 12-year old. We all have preferences; not all of us can have control. They reject scores of writers whose agents get them an appointment to lob lots of pitches that get called off the plate. Why in the world do people get [so] PO'ed about being ignored here? Yes, the producers have rejected a great many suggestions from the fans. Some, at significant cost to the franchise. That's their goat to f*ck, not yours. Like it or hate it, you don't work the gear shifts in that car. But you presume disrespect where there is none. I like a Mazerati as much as the next fan, but is the owner somehow disrespecting me by not letting me drive it, or by not pedal-shifting the way I think he should? Because he didn't tilt his mirrors the way I would, is that somehow a slight on me? He rejected my suggestions, and yeah, maybe I think my way is better. But that doesn't necessarily mean he ignored me. It doesn't necessarily make his way wrong. It doesn't make mine right. And it doesn't entitle me to kick his door and dent the damn thing, comment on his mother and her Y-chromosome pairing, proclaim to everyone who doesn't want to hear it that I'm a victim of disrespect, and stomp around the parking lot from then on. Perhaps the driver knows more about driving the car, than I know about seeing it driven.
It offends more people than just the targets of your wrath when you spew it so indiscriminately, and with such poor taste. It makes coming here to read threads a chore, and that is unfair to those who contribute more thoughtful insights, because their opinions then get passed over with the bitter commentary around it. It is disrespectful to everyone who posts here when those posts are put forth. And THAT is what I meant concerning the presumption and disrespect in this forum. THAT is why I suggest tempering your suggestions with your qualification as to what you should offer. There are normative statutes to consider there. And there is common courtesy to be applied.
Dennis , I love you, but if you don't start spelling my name right, I'm opting out of the group hug on principle.
And Ptrope, the irony of a statement of mine occupying your sig is staggering. I like it.
I hope this clears things a bit. Suspect my motives all you want, but the shape of the board could stand some positive change.
Reno, et al--allow me to clarify for you the issues involved with vitriolic attacks on the show's producers and writers,etc.
Someone may write films, novels, and great grocery lists, but they don't work on this show, they don't work on television in general, and they have little idea of the day-to-day histrionics involved therein. Therefore, a person can dislike the product as much as they want, but it is presumptive and very offensive to read their commentary on the people making the product, and WHAT THEY GO THROUGH to make the product. The derogatory statements "hurled", as you so aptly put it, are way out of line, and not only are they offensive to the people they target, but they are disgusting to those of us with enough common sense and consideration to recognize a cheap shot when we see one. No one likes to stand around a school yard and watch a bully beat the crap out of another kid. Is the bully somehow justified in doing so because he too has to wear the same kind of shoes as his victim? Absolutely not. Whether or not someone has endured criticism of their work doesn't necessarily translate to "everyone gets to see the same sh*t poor me has had to see". I'll tell you right now, the comments here in these threads about writing ability and production quality, and why so-and-so character should NEVER have been introduced into the "correct" Trek timeline, etc. are tame compared to those handed out and taken in the real studio, in the real writers' meetings, and in the real memos sent out. So please don't give these cheap shots any more credit than they are due. What you say is not affecting the producers nearly as much as it's irritating some of us.
You don't have to build cars to like a Porsche, but I'm pretty damn sure you don't call the makers of the Skoda and lecture them on their craft. They'd hang up on you, and sue you for slander, to boot. You are not qualified to tell someone how to do their thing unless you do it. You are more than entitled to tell them what you think of it, and how you would like it to be. Especially if you're a loyal, long-time customer, you are EXPECTED to voice your opinion on how to better the product you're expected buy. That's what makes a better product. But you are not endowed with any superior knowledge or experience that somehow entitles you to tell them how to run their factories, how to train their engineers, and when to pee on breaks. YOU DON'T DO WHAT THEY DO. So don't presume authority for doing it.
You are a fan. So be one. Fans occupy a unique and very essential space in the land of television. Fans provide feedback. NOT INSTRUCTIONS. Fans provide, or at their discretion, rescind ratings. Fans do not walk through the 16-18 hour workday at the studio, location scouts and offices. FANS make or break a show's run. They do not MAKE the show RUN.
The difference is important. Please consider it. Please comprehend it. Sometimes the attacks are made not because of the job being done, but because of WHO is doing the job. THAT'S tyrannical, asinine, cynical, ridiculous, etc.
Which leads me, in my novel of a post, to something I neglected to spell out explicitly in my other post:
It is extremely
to hear the phrase "TPTB don't respect the fans, they don't deserve anything they have, they owe it all to us, we're all being screwed over, they never listen, they hate us, they call us names, woe is me, the best fan ever and the only person who can and should save Trek". You want to play that lonely violin, then of course you should expect to be compared to a 12-year old. We all have preferences; not all of us can have control. They reject scores of writers whose agents get them an appointment to lob lots of pitches that get called off the plate. Why in the world do people get [so] PO'ed about being ignored here? Yes, the producers have rejected a great many suggestions from the fans. Some, at significant cost to the franchise. That's their goat to f*ck, not yours. Like it or hate it, you don't work the gear shifts in that car. But you presume disrespect where there is none. I like a Mazerati as much as the next fan, but is the owner somehow disrespecting me by not letting me drive it, or by not pedal-shifting the way I think he should? Because he didn't tilt his mirrors the way I would, is that somehow a slight on me? He rejected my suggestions, and yeah, maybe I think my way is better. But that doesn't necessarily mean he ignored me. It doesn't necessarily make his way wrong. It doesn't make mine right. And it doesn't entitle me to kick his door and dent the damn thing, comment on his mother and her Y-chromosome pairing, proclaim to everyone who doesn't want to hear it that I'm a victim of disrespect, and stomp around the parking lot from then on. Perhaps the driver knows more about driving the car, than I know about seeing it driven.It offends more people than just the targets of your wrath when you spew it so indiscriminately, and with such poor taste. It makes coming here to read threads a chore, and that is unfair to those who contribute more thoughtful insights, because their opinions then get passed over with the bitter commentary around it. It is disrespectful to everyone who posts here when those posts are put forth. And THAT is what I meant concerning the presumption and disrespect in this forum. THAT is why I suggest tempering your suggestions with your qualification as to what you should offer. There are normative statutes to consider there. And there is common courtesy to be applied.
Dennis , I love you, but if you don't start spelling my name right, I'm opting out of the group hug on principle.
And Ptrope, the irony of a statement of mine occupying your sig is staggering. I like it.
I hope this clears things a bit. Suspect my motives all you want, but the shape of the board could stand some positive change.
Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate
I still stand by what I said. If someone only wants to read part of what ones writes and only respond to that part, I see no problem with that. If you want to dispute the point that was made then you can make a rebuttal. It happens to me all the time and I have no problem with it.
And I know there is a consensus here that it is fine to hate the show yet continuously want to debate the merits of it each week anyway and state what is wrong with the show. I see no point to this. I know on other boards this is not allowed because it automatically creates a hostile environment. I was just attempting to offer a suggestion as to what others do. I mean what would be the point of having posters on the board that hated the entire Star Trek franchise and continuously berated the franchise and hailed the greatness of Star Wars. You would constantly have arguments from the beginning because the person is what the rest of the board likes.
It is ok to critize the show, but I just think you should at least like it on some level. You and Reno do a good job of actually critizing the show and your opinions vary based on the quality of work as you see it. Others simply say I hate the show, no matter what reasons or how eloquently they present their arguments the results are always the same. I see no point to this at all.
But like I said this is all just my opinion and I know that it is not shared by the persons that matter, so it is just my 2 cents and I thought that was the point of the thread.
Ptrope can't wait for the next Endeavor update.
I still stand by what I said. If someone only wants to read part of what ones writes and only respond to that part, I see no problem with that. If you want to dispute the point that was made then you can make a rebuttal. It happens to me all the time and I have no problem with it.
And I know there is a consensus here that it is fine to hate the show yet continuously want to debate the merits of it each week anyway and state what is wrong with the show. I see no point to this. I know on other boards this is not allowed because it automatically creates a hostile environment. I was just attempting to offer a suggestion as to what others do. I mean what would be the point of having posters on the board that hated the entire Star Trek franchise and continuously berated the franchise and hailed the greatness of Star Wars. You would constantly have arguments from the beginning because the person is what the rest of the board likes.
It is ok to critize the show, but I just think you should at least like it on some level. You and Reno do a good job of actually critizing the show and your opinions vary based on the quality of work as you see it. Others simply say I hate the show, no matter what reasons or how eloquently they present their arguments the results are always the same. I see no point to this at all.
But like I said this is all just my opinion and I know that it is not shared by the persons that matter, so it is just my 2 cents and I thought that was the point of the thread.
Ptrope can't wait for the next Endeavor update.
Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate
I think you just showed your hand.
Having also worked in TV, done the 18 hour days and all the associated bullshit it entails I can say with some certainty that critcism is frustrating, sure.
Should I feel guilty about dishing my brand of criticism out? Fuck no. If you can't take the pressure of it, get out of the job, there are plenty of others out there snapping at your heels. Should others feel guilty? No way.
Places like this exist so people can offer their views. Perhaps you don't like it because it's too close to the mark and it's out in public. Tough titties. That's life. And FYI if I don't like a product, any product, for whatever reason, I do let them know. From cars, to programs to books. It may surprise you to learn that that is how the greatest products evolve and satisfy their customers, by listening to the feedback instead of bitching like an infant child.
I did not condone personal insults in my post, but that doesn't actually seem to be your beef. Your biggest beef seems to be that people dare to actually comment on the precious show. Gasp! What are we to do?
For you, I would prescribe valium, for the rest of us, carry on as normal.
It's up to you, the people who make the show to decide what's best, and steer the course you want. Of course it is. But it's up to us to tell you if you keep crashing the damn thing into a wall. It's up to you to listen or not, and I don't mean to one person, but the broadest range of people you can find. But you keep crashing that thing and pretty soon they'll take the car away from you.
The biggest thing I find that people can't deal with in Hollywood is honesty, in any shape or form. From me and many people like me you'll get nothing but honesty. It's actually a pretty useful tool when you don't spend your life being afraid of it.
I think you just showed your hand.
Having also worked in TV, done the 18 hour days and all the associated bullshit it entails I can say with some certainty that critcism is frustrating, sure.
Should I feel guilty about dishing my brand of criticism out? Fuck no. If you can't take the pressure of it, get out of the job, there are plenty of others out there snapping at your heels. Should others feel guilty? No way.
Places like this exist so people can offer their views. Perhaps you don't like it because it's too close to the mark and it's out in public. Tough titties. That's life. And FYI if I don't like a product, any product, for whatever reason, I do let them know. From cars, to programs to books. It may surprise you to learn that that is how the greatest products evolve and satisfy their customers, by listening to the feedback instead of bitching like an infant child.
I did not condone personal insults in my post, but that doesn't actually seem to be your beef. Your biggest beef seems to be that people dare to actually comment on the precious show. Gasp! What are we to do?
For you, I would prescribe valium, for the rest of us, carry on as normal.
It's up to you, the people who make the show to decide what's best, and steer the course you want. Of course it is. But it's up to us to tell you if you keep crashing the damn thing into a wall. It's up to you to listen or not, and I don't mean to one person, but the broadest range of people you can find. But you keep crashing that thing and pretty soon they'll take the car away from you.
The biggest thing I find that people can't deal with in Hollywood is honesty, in any shape or form. From me and many people like me you'll get nothing but honesty. It's actually a pretty useful tool when you don't spend your life being afraid of it.
Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate
I happen to agree in part, but not everyone has the inclination to write a full blown review.
I have in my own way been trying to encourage more people to write reviews, and I've been really pleased and encouraged to see reviews appearing from all sides of the spectrum. Dex, Mr J, Emily Reich, Dogowar (or however you spell it) Xenoclone, am I missing anyone else who now writes reviews?
These have actually made the forum a much better place to be because by defining likes and dislikes it's allowing people to identify common ground, and for some people actually allowing them to pinpoint what it was they did or didn't like.
I happen to agree in part, but not everyone has the inclination to write a full blown review.
I have in my own way been trying to encourage more people to write reviews, and I've been really pleased and encouraged to see reviews appearing from all sides of the spectrum. Dex, Mr J, Emily Reich, Dogowar (or however you spell it) Xenoclone, am I missing anyone else who now writes reviews?
These have actually made the forum a much better place to be because by defining likes and dislikes it's allowing people to identify common ground, and for some people actually allowing them to pinpoint what it was they did or didn't like.
Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate
I do wish someone would crack down (via friendly reminders, of course) on the *ahem* empty posts in the grading threads. I can understand quite well why, for example, someone who had taken the trouble to post a thoughtful, intelligent, coherent list of the various reasons why he thought the latest episode was bad would be irritated by someone posting half a dozen entries after his:
My reaction (I wouldn't necessarily say it) in that situation would be "Really, did you not see my post [meaning: is nobody paying attention to the perfectly good results of my efforts]? Did you not notice any of the troublesome elements in the episode?" etc.
And it can go the other way, with someone marching in and stating, "That stunk! I can't believe anybody thinks this is any good!" and promptly leaving. There's even an occasional post containing no more than a midlevel grade. And of course not everyone reads any of the posts in the thread before submitting their own opinion. But it doesn't matter which way it goes, these empty posts (meaning: no reasons invoking the contents of the episode are given for the grade) really aren't conducive to discussion or good tempers.
(Edit, inspired by a post a few entries above this one): I also think sometimes people forget we're here to discuss and start thinking that everyone came here to WIN. "It's US against THEM, all-out war, anything goes!" If we could all remember that the world won't end if we can't quite seem to get the other person to look at things from our viewpoint, that such misunderstandings and disagreements happen all the time and shouldn't be very important, I think a lot of the frustration around here would be lessened considerably.
I do wish someone would crack down (via friendly reminders, of course) on the *ahem* empty posts in the grading threads. I can understand quite well why, for example, someone who had taken the trouble to post a thoughtful, intelligent, coherent list of the various reasons why he thought the latest episode was bad would be irritated by someone posting half a dozen entries after his:
My reaction (I wouldn't necessarily say it) in that situation would be "Really, did you not see my post [meaning: is nobody paying attention to the perfectly good results of my efforts]? Did you not notice any of the troublesome elements in the episode?" etc.
And it can go the other way, with someone marching in and stating, "That stunk! I can't believe anybody thinks this is any good!" and promptly leaving. There's even an occasional post containing no more than a midlevel grade. And of course not everyone reads any of the posts in the thread before submitting their own opinion. But it doesn't matter which way it goes, these empty posts (meaning: no reasons invoking the contents of the episode are given for the grade) really aren't conducive to discussion or good tempers.
(Edit, inspired by a post a few entries above this one): I also think sometimes people forget we're here to discuss and start thinking that everyone came here to WIN. "It's US against THEM, all-out war, anything goes!" If we could all remember that the world won't end if we can't quite seem to get the other person to look at things from our viewpoint, that such misunderstandings and disagreements happen all the time and shouldn't be very important, I think a lot of the frustration around here would be lessened considerably.
Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate
I’m quite astonished to hear this from anyone who works in the creative industry. People give you their attention – their time, and then they let you know if they got their value out of it. If my pasta is too salty – I sure as hell know what was wrong with it, and I’m more than qualified to speak on the diagnosis, and the solution.
If there are truly Things We Do Not Know behind the scenes that prevent people from perceiving the show the way you do, which you think makes our criticism misplaced, then you have a choice:
a) Don’t take the criticism personally and let it go.
b) State your case and fight it out.
When my particular professional interests get slammed on this board unfairly, I make a case and fight it out. It would be a ridiculous for me to take a stance that people should just shut up out of respect for me and my interests, even though I don’t feel any need to defend or support it.
I’m quite astonished to hear this from anyone who works in the creative industry. People give you their attention – their time, and then they let you know if they got their value out of it. If my pasta is too salty – I sure as hell know what was wrong with it, and I’m more than qualified to speak on the diagnosis, and the solution.
If there are truly Things We Do Not Know behind the scenes that prevent people from perceiving the show the way you do, which you think makes our criticism misplaced, then you have a choice:
a) Don’t take the criticism personally and let it go.
b) State your case and fight it out.
When my particular professional interests get slammed on this board unfairly, I make a case and fight it out. It would be a ridiculous for me to take a stance that people should just shut up out of respect for me and my interests, even though I don’t feel any need to defend or support it.
Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate
^^ Well Nephandus, as far as those comments go it's arrogance like that which highlights why Trek's in the trouble it's in, but there you are.
^^ Well Nephandus, as far as those comments go it's arrogance like that which highlights why Trek's in the trouble it's in, but there you are.
Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate
^But don't you think there's a difference between criticising say Braga's work and criticising Braga himself - ie. Braga's plotting etc in "ANIS" was idiotic vs. Braga is an Idiot.
^But don't you think there's a difference between criticising say Braga's work and criticising Braga himself - ie. Braga's plotting etc in "ANIS" was idiotic vs. Braga is an Idiot.
Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate
Did you read my initial post and my follow up? Maybe third time's the charm, eh? Yes there's a difference, and I do not condone personal attacks. But you cannot, should not, and must not stop freedom of criticism (good and bad) of the material.
If Silvarisa got his way you'd end up wih brannonbraga.com and it's throng of ten people allowed to post anything - all of it unreadable sycophantic nonsense.
Did you read my initial post and my follow up? Maybe third time's the charm, eh?
Yes there's a difference, and I do not condone personal attacks. But you cannot, should not, and must not stop freedom of criticism (good and bad) of the material. If Silvarisa got his way you'd end up wih brannonbraga.com and it's throng of ten people allowed to post anything - all of it unreadable sycophantic nonsense.
Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate
Now I have to actually read posts Damn it! I knew there was a downside to this gig
Now I have to actually read posts
Damn it! I knew there was a downside to this gig Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate
lol, sucker
Posted by Lady Conqueror:
Now I have to actually read posts
lol, sucker
Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate
I joined this BBS originally because I read posts by people who were a lot of fun. I could dash in and have a laugh and leave. There were also serious discussions which required me to think about the show and characters - I love those kind of academic discussions. But all too often threads would be invaded by posters who were very disrespectful of those participating in the discussion, and nothing was done.
It seems to be fine for someone to spew hate against the actor, not only the character, and even spew hate against those who like the character. I can understand stating an opposite opinion, but why be so unpleasant? Why not just ignore threads on topics you don't like, or start threads to reflect your opinion and get like minded people to discuss? Why purposefully go into a thread to destroy the sense of fun and community created? I'm too busy to deal with that, so I left and joined another community where I feel far more comfortable.
I started coming back in the last couple of days and I noticed that things seem much more civilized. Has something changed?
If there is respect, then this place if fine. When hate enters the picture, then the fun of being part of this community ends.
I joined this BBS originally because I read posts by people who were a lot of fun. I could dash in and have a laugh and leave. There were also serious discussions which required me to think about the show and characters - I love those kind of academic discussions. But all too often threads would be invaded by posters who were very disrespectful of those participating in the discussion, and nothing was done.
It seems to be fine for someone to spew hate against the actor, not only the character, and even spew hate against those who like the character. I can understand stating an opposite opinion, but why be so unpleasant? Why not just ignore threads on topics you don't like, or start threads to reflect your opinion and get like minded people to discuss? Why purposefully go into a thread to destroy the sense of fun and community created? I'm too busy to deal with that, so I left and joined another community where I feel far more comfortable.
I started coming back in the last couple of days and I noticed that things seem much more civilized. Has something changed?
If there is respect, then this place if fine. When hate enters the picture, then the fun of being part of this community ends.
G
Guest
Guest
Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate
I could end the post right here, given that your obvious assumption as to who I might be is precisely the issue--your assumptions, and their frequent inaccuracy. But then, there's more here.
Frustrating is not the point, Reno. Criticism is often enlightening. If YOU are frustrated, find a more targeted way to express it.
Case in point, Reno. Comments like that are precisely WHY this thread was started by the mods.
Honest is great. Rude is petty, and defeats your purpose. You'd make your point a little more strongly if you improved your approach, Reno. And read a little more closely carefully into that which so annoys you.
I thought I was making things more clear. Perhaps the original problem was not clarity, but the simple issue of comprehending the point in the first place. I can't help you there.
And Reno, I don't know who you think you're addressing, but whoever you think I am, I'm flattered. Really. But you're not on par with me to discuss this, because you're missing the point of the argument. You have no justification for personal attacks on people who post here, nor on those who work the show. That's not up for debate.
You ARE entitled to criticize, though. You're expected to. But not at the cost of everyone else who has to read it. The point of this whole thread was to discuss why it is that the forum is polarized, why people are often offended upon entering, and how to stop people from doing precisely what you just did in your post. Nasty comments, derogatory personal statements, and arrogant presumption are part of the problem. If you want to defend those trends, that's sad, but go for it. But for someone who sings criticism as a holy hymn, I'm surprised you're so upset to take some. I think what you do, and say, the manner in which you choose to attack people, BBS posters, producers, whathaveyou, is offensive. It shows a lack of consideration for those with whom you converse, a lack of deliberation in your arguments, and a paucity of courtesy for those who have to read your comments, no matter to whom they are directed. This is indeed a place for people to post their views. It is not, however, the county dump. Trash belongs elsewhere.
Criticism is a great thing. If you don't like aspects of the show, you ought to post that. If you don't like the job the writers, the producers, or the actors do, you ought to post that. If you assume some sort of motivation on the part of those people as to why it is they are doing or not doing what you don't like, then you ought to MAKE A CASE FOR THAT ASSUMPTION IF YOU ARE GOING TO POST IT. By all means, say that you feel they disrespect you. But back it up with something to explain it, or don't say it. And please don't garnish it with personal cracks at their life, their work ethic, the way they drive or their flower arrangements, because those are things that you have no knowledge of. In the same way that people who post lengthy posts are saying they feel "dismissed" when a 3 sentence reply is given back, with nothing to back up what they say, or a smiley to skip out on burning someone, you are posting a cheap shot that has no substance to it, no point (other than how devastated you are at their rejection of your input), and a nasty, bitter overtone that sets a mood in this forum. Your critique is a problem, not simply the fact that you criticize. There is a distinct difference.
I could end the post right here, given that your obvious assumption as to who I might be is precisely the issue--your assumptions, and their frequent inaccuracy. But then, there's more here.
Frustrating is not the point, Reno. Criticism is often enlightening. If YOU are frustrated, find a more targeted way to express it.
Yes. But then again, not according to your posts.
Go back and read my post, Reno. That's precisely the point I stated. You even used the same word.
Touche`, Reno.
Yes, you did. Go back and read YOUR post, Reno.
Case in point, Reno. Comments like that are precisely WHY this thread was started by the mods.
Honest is great. Rude is petty, and defeats your purpose. You'd make your point a little more strongly if you improved your approach, Reno. And read a little more closely carefully into that which so annoys you.
I thought I was making things more clear. Perhaps the original problem was not clarity, but the simple issue of comprehending the point in the first place. I can't help you there.
And Reno, I don't know who you think you're addressing, but whoever you think I am, I'm flattered. Really. But you're not on par with me to discuss this, because you're missing the point of the argument. You have no justification for personal attacks on people who post here, nor on those who work the show. That's not up for debate.
You ARE entitled to criticize, though. You're expected to. But not at the cost of everyone else who has to read it. The point of this whole thread was to discuss why it is that the forum is polarized, why people are often offended upon entering, and how to stop people from doing precisely what you just did in your post. Nasty comments, derogatory personal statements, and arrogant presumption are part of the problem. If you want to defend those trends, that's sad, but go for it. But for someone who sings criticism as a holy hymn, I'm surprised you're so upset to take some. I think what you do, and say, the manner in which you choose to attack people, BBS posters, producers, whathaveyou, is offensive. It shows a lack of consideration for those with whom you converse, a lack of deliberation in your arguments, and a paucity of courtesy for those who have to read your comments, no matter to whom they are directed. This is indeed a place for people to post their views. It is not, however, the county dump. Trash belongs elsewhere.
Criticism is a great thing. If you don't like aspects of the show, you ought to post that. If you don't like the job the writers, the producers, or the actors do, you ought to post that. If you assume some sort of motivation on the part of those people as to why it is they are doing or not doing what you don't like, then you ought to MAKE A CASE FOR THAT ASSUMPTION IF YOU ARE GOING TO POST IT. By all means, say that you feel they disrespect you. But back it up with something to explain it, or don't say it. And please don't garnish it with personal cracks at their life, their work ethic, the way they drive or their flower arrangements, because those are things that you have no knowledge of. In the same way that people who post lengthy posts are saying they feel "dismissed" when a 3 sentence reply is given back, with nothing to back up what they say, or a smiley to skip out on burning someone, you are posting a cheap shot that has no substance to it, no point (other than how devastated you are at their rejection of your input), and a nasty, bitter overtone that sets a mood in this forum. Your critique is a problem, not simply the fact that you criticize. There is a distinct difference.
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