ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate!!!

[Guest]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by reno floyd:

If Silvarisa got his way you'd end up wih brannonbraga.com and it's throng of ten people allowed to post anything - all of it unreadable sycophantic nonsense.

This got a laugh out of me, and not just because I agree with your read on the contents of those posts. You'll understand why, Reno, if you get in touch with the webmistress at that site. Just give her my name, and see what she says. You have nothing on her when it comes to ridiculous personal witch hunts and mistaken assumptions. You would be well advised to reconsider what it is you think you know about me.

 

[Turtletrekker]

Posted by Raz:


If you don't like it, don't watch it

This statement was old when the Magna Carta was signed. Seriously. Obviously there are people out there that don't like Enterprise so much, but continue to tune in irregularly. Like me. Live with it; address their arguments or be quiet. Telling them they shouldn't be watching is beyond ridiculous.

And with the ratings as low as they are, the show can frankly use all the viewers it can get. Be they 'gusher' OR 'basher'. A viewer is a viewer.

 

[Guest]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by Nephandus:

I'm quite astonished to hear this from anyone who works in the creative industry. People give you their attention, their time, and then they let you know if they got their value out of it. If my pasta is too salty, I sure as hell know what was wrong with it, and I'm more than qualified to speak on the diagnosis, and the solution.

Nephandus, if you go to a concert, do you pull the vocalist aside after the show, and say, "I really hated the way you sang song B with that awful idea in the second verse. The next time you write, you should write this, and you really should be singing it THAT way, because that's the better way." Let's even give you the benefit of the doubt, and make you a songwriter, and a vocalist, too. Does that in any way justify your righteous indignation when at the next concert you see her sing, she sings song B the way she wants to, and furthermore, never implements your suggestions in any of her other songs?

Pulling her aside to say, "eh, song B wasn't really for me. Here's why..." is well within your rights as a fan. But you have no place telling her how to sing, what to write, and how to put it all together, and EXPECT her to do that, or risk your wrath. I mean, after that second concert, her fans would pull you down and kick your ass if you pulled her aside and said "Look, dammit, I told you the way I wanted it. I can't believe you didn't do it that way! You suck, you obviously have no vision, and you shouldn't be singing anymore."

If there are truly Things We Do Not Know behind the scenes that prevent people from perceiving the show the way you do, which you think makes our criticism misplaced, then you have a choice:

a) Don't take the criticism personally and let it go.

Taking it personally is not the point. The point is that personal criticisms are made in the first place. I don't have to take your comments at all to be offended by the fact that they are constantly extended to someone else, to me, to my dog, whatever. The point is it's rude, it's uncalled for, and it is an unecessary style in which to vent your criticisms.

Pasta is one thing. Television is a tad more complex. I see the point of your analogy, but it's incomparable to the arguments here, and it doesn't really address the issues at hand.

 

[reno floyd]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by SilveRisa:
... tame compared to those handed out and taken in the real studio, in the real writers' meetings, and in the real memos sent out. So please don't give these cheap shots any more credit than they are due. What you say is not affecting the producers nearly as much as it's irritating some of us.

This, Silverisa, is about all I know about you. I have no assumptions other than conclusions I can only draw from what you write. What my assumptions are, you're not privy to, I haven't posted them beyond a cursory assumption you're on the inside, and that's merely being polite enough to believe what you've written here, so you flatter yourself and don't read too much into it. Who you are and what you do concerns me precisely zero. I welcome your opinions of what I write, turnaround is fair game, but then that implies you're on the inside - if you're not, then it's not turnaround is it, you're merely displaying all those traits you hate being used on the makers of the show, but doing it to me. Which makes you a hypocrite; so my advice is make up your mind who you think you are and decide whether its turnaround or hypocrisy and then get back to me.

I don't condone personal attacks. This is now the FOURTH time I've written it, but from my POV I simply don't have a problem with it like you do. Get over it.

I take issue with your implication that my posts are all bitter, or cutting or generally demeaning towards the show. That is a flat out lie. I don't see you wading in to stop me from writing my reviews when they happen to be glowing about an episode. Curious that, eh? Over fifty percent of my posts are wise ass remarks and wise cracks. So unless you've taken a record of everything I write I submit you haven't a clue what you're talking about. Is the real problem the fact that so many people take the trouble to actually read what I have to say when an ep does come out?

On the guilt point. Who the hell do you think you are? Go sell sanctimonious some place else.

As for your comment 'rude is petty', it's certainly not petty enough is it, judging by the the sheer volume of rude comments you throw around. Try practicing what you preach.

Now, quite why you take all this commentary by everybody so personally (and then for the weirdest and unfathomable reason accuse me of the same thing, which confuses the hell out of me because I'm on the bus to 'don't care') I don't know. But what's clear from your posts is that you seem to think you know more than anyone else here, even if some of us here have as much practical experience as you do or do not have (depending on whether you've made you mind up as to whether you're on the inside or not).

The simple hard fact of reality is, people are going to make these comments whether you like it or not, rant or not, crusade or not. A thicker skin would suit you, because the upshot is on this issue, you're wrong. But thanks for playing.

 

[Robotrix_Zero]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by SilveRisa:
Pasta is one thing. Television is a tad more complex.

But the end result is the same if you find you have no return customers for what you're currently serving up.

In both cases, you have choices.

You can find ways of serving to the tastes of the audience you want to reach - meet their basic expectations and need of quality first - and then try to introduce those touches you think are important later.

Or, one can fuss and fume and cuss out the public for daring to not share your tastes and continue on stubbornly doing what you have been and expect things will just turn out the way you want - like a dog baying at the moon thinking they can make it go away.

After more than two years, B&B must be getting pretty hoarse...

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by Robotrix_Zero:
But the end result is the same if you find you have no return customers for what you're currently serving up.

The processes and the end results are not nearly the same thing.

Too many fans like this pasta or fast food or pizza analogy and give it too much weight. They seem to imagine that Paramount is like, oh, some folks running a Pizza Hut. My pizza comes to my table cold -- or I ordered pepperoni and got a plain with extra cheese. So I send it back and they send me a new pizza more to my liking, right?

I'd be shocked if what they did instead was close the doors to the Pizza Hut permanently, raze the building and erect a Home Depot on the property. OTOH, if this show fails it makes perfect sense for Viacom to start spending their money on something profitable that has a future -- and cease spending it on "Star Trek" altogether. There's no reason they should do otherwise.

 

[Lady Conqueror]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Okay - we're starting to shift off-topic a little here.

 

[Ptrope]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by Galactus:
Ptrope can't wait for the next Endeavor update.

Man, ain't that the truth? I wish to hell someone would start writing it ... (Hey, I've got my hands full with the novelization of "The Interregnum" )

 

[Archer4Trip]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

What pisses me off? NO ONE EVER FLAMES ME!! I try and try to be annoying, going on and on and on about how Archer and Trip are perfect for each other, how they have this great love affair going on, how hot they both are and NOTHING! It's like talking to a brick wall with you people!

(oh, sorry, that one's banned now, right?)

I've been thinking about what is not so wonderful about this board, why I was so excited to find it back in 2001 and why I come to it last nowadays. It isn't easy to specify. I'd like to say that the mods have been letting it go to pot, but some of my best friends are mods here. And from what I've seen posted by mods in this thread, I seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of what moderating means.

On the whole, I believe(d) this board, and any board, should be a place to exchange ideas freely. Great. First amendment and all that. But what happens, over and over and over again, is that EVERY topic has to become a debate - a full on, no holds barred, choose your corner debate. Statements made must be defended by an entire legal team, or else you'd best pack up and go home. Rather than clever, fun discussion, I find myself in the position of explaining why it's okay to like Enterprise/this character/that episode, and not with people who might change their minds eventually but with people whose sole purpose seems to be to dislike things, and to get off showing how cleverly they can dissect the show this week. Any hope for a pleasant, intelligent exchange of ideas is long gone by about the tenth post of a thread (whether for or against element X of the show). Debate, sure. I'd be happy to. But not at every turn. Not in every thread. Not about every single aspect of the show.

I think a lot of the "Why are you even here?" mentality is clearly understood as a reaction to the CONSTANT UNREMITTING NEGATIVITY that has characterized this forum for the last year and a half. I do not think constant unremitting praise is a great idea either - B&B and some writers and actors on the show are not contributing to the betterment of the show or the franchise at least 1/3 -1/2 of the time, choosing flimsy stories, poor character direction, and generally avoiding making an intelligent, daring, groundbreaking series. But the kind of criticism seen in the last sentence is not what makes this forum so poisonous - it's the personal attacks, (again, not against me, dang it all ) the viciousness of them, and the unchanging opinions of those who engage in this behavior, most of which is simply ignored by the mods who favor allowing debate and open criticism, when that isn't what's occurring.

What is occurring instead is what is seen in other segments of the media - attacking, loudly, followed by sniping. Criticism for criticism's sake, and the harsher, the better. Jumping on a bandwagon to kick a show that is anything less than one person's ideal of what it should be. This hypercritical expression of one's opinions cannot succeed through open and balanced debate, so it succeeds through repetitive hammering, extremism, and disregard for others. I often wonder if people here realize that their negativity (even when masked by intelligence) isn't welcome in the real world either - so much of what happens here would get you frozen out of a conversation at a party in no time and simply isn't appropriate behavior for a public place - which this is.

I would dearly love to come to the TrekBBS and see threads for and against an episode's quality, a character's direction, a storyline, and know I could be entertained, see people I like and respect even in disagreement, and talk like an adult to the people in the thread, whether we share an opinion or not. I can do that on many other Trek boards; here, it's rare. More often than not, when I come here, I see twenty or so threads, each expressing derisive, unchangeable hatred for whatever element has upset the poster. When I enter a thread, even one that is clearly intended for amusement and nothing else, there's someone leaving a pile of crap right in the middle of it. Tell a mod? Why bother? It's already too late. Step around it, sure, but I can still smell it.

I am eternally grateful to the mature and thoughtful people on this board with whom I respectfully agree to disagree, and to those who have changed my mind or who have listened to me, argued, and then changed THEIR mind; they're all in this thread, and usually bashers, but I can count them on one hand. So much has been lost around here - too many names of friends who just left in disgust. The Archer contingent has fled, the Reed Ragers have largely fled, even the Tuckerites are only now returning after realizing how vital it is to take part in this forum.

 

[newbie]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Sorry, but I don't think the problem is just lack of manners. The problem is lack of criticism.

Criticism attempts to be objective, proportionate, factual, things that can intuitively be understood as simple fairness. Criticism attempts to acknowledge that subjective factors play a role in entertainment, or for that matter, that entertainment is a valid goal. Criticism attempts to reserve spleen for offenses that merit genuine contempt, such as dishonesty, not enthusiasm. Criticism attempts to correctly characterize its object of study. Criticism attempts to connect the work of art to the real world. Criticism attempts to be rational. Criticism attempts to understand.

Real criticism can wound the vanity by demonstrating that a post is nonsense. Real criticsm can confront deeply held values, which always inspires tension. Confrontation over real criticsm is a plus. Obviously, courtesty between posters is helpful to criticism.

But there's precious little of that around here. Thus, the problems.

 

[Stewey]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Another thing I want to get off my chest a bit here is the perception of negativity from those who defend the show. Criticising TPTB and/or B&B is not being negative in my view. They are accountable for everything they do, just like for example Prime Ministers are accountable for a poor performing government. Actually looking at British politics, a good opposition makes a better government. Have you seen British Prime Ministers Questions, you should see the lambasting and downright pettiness of some of the exchanges there, and these people are making our laws. I see the franchise failing, and I have my own opinion of how to fix it, and I don't personally believe it’s a negative method, not when you look at the big picture.

Addressing those who complain about the criticism towards B&B and TPTB, yes some of it is personal but I don't believe it is against the rules, unless the persons in question are active members of the board. Like it or not, B&B and Paramount are accountable for the good or the bad aspects of the franchise and I believe all sides of the table are entitled to their opinion, whether it is to criticise them or praise them. Interestingly, there is as much anti Roddenberry sentiment as there is anti-B&B sentiment on this board, and sometimes (not everyone) that comes from B&B supporters.

Last but not least, I want to thank the Moderators (there’s something you don't read every day from one of my posts) for giving posters a chance to work with them to sort out the problems with this forum, it is much appreciated.

 

[Archer's Crotch]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

If you're gonna hold a party for hundreds and hundreds of guests to celebrate a singular event, it's probably not the wisest idea to pack them all into your living room. There are never, ever, enough chairs; everybody is yelling to be heard; the smokers are habitually flinging ashes in people's drinks; and, no matter how many Guatemalan cleaning ladies you hire, it'll still take days to get the stains out of the carpet.

Instead, expand the venue. Open up the house to more enterprising follies. Maximize the potential of each member by providing rooms wherein their particular strength can be best showcased, their contribution more enduring, and their effort better appreciated. Whether it be review writing; critical analysis; shipper chat; satire; games; and, of course, just friendly Enterprise banter. However it would be contrived, at least there would be more elbow room.

That sound you hear is the din of too many competing interests jostling for cutlery at one dessert table. Having more dessert tables would be one solution. Bitching would be the other.

And only a coterie of drag queens could make bitchiness an entertainment sport worth watching.

 

[wolf359]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

in my mind one of the biggest problems with the board ATM is the review thread. this thread causes so much resentment that it is bound to move over into other threads. every week i settle down to read the thread (which is massive by the time i get to see the episode in question. i won't grade until i've watched it) and by the time i get to the end i decide "what's the point?" you have a few who regardless how good/bad the episode was will post along the lines of "A+++++ BEST EPISODE EVER". you then have the ones who'll give it an A and then add their multiple reasons on why it didn't deserve an A++++++. they find numerous faluts with a show and still give it an A. i wish my examiners had been so lenient. if B&b were to come here and only read the gradings they'd think that all was rosey in fanland. yes, i'm from the nay-sayers' camp. but guess what, i rarely (if ever) grade the show an F. i try to be objective. i personally have 2 grading methods. 1. enterprise alone & 2. enterprise in relation to the rest of the franchise.

this week i would have given twilight and A in the first category (only let down by the complete reset) but only a C or C- in the second category. but i never post these grades in the thread for the reason above. i used to come here looking for debates on how enterprise could be improved, i soon realised that was pointless. as soon as you dare to compare something in ENT to another show in the franchise you get jumped on. and one of the people in this thread calling for less attacks is the prime culprit, and what's more, due to the admitted bias in the moderating policy, he is never even given a friendly for it.

so in closing IMHO the primary causes of all fighting on this board is the grading thread and the admitted bias of it's moderating which allows trolling from one side which inevitably leads to the attacked fighting back.

 

[John Sullivan]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

I post this as I'm going to (on the 15th) put up this TREK BBS as one of my own sponsored links on my webpage http://www.endlesswonder.com - Lord knows that I wouldn't have had 10% of the ship designs without at least 10 (count 'em 10) people (and that's a lot) that can only be traced back to this fine board. I'm out of here. Really. I expected to have been banned by now for honest comments over at TNZ last week.

But, I do have some (nicer) parting words. Christian, great idea. Lisa, great site. Top, LC, TBonz, Where'sSaavik (I didn't forget you) (where is he, anyway?) Digits, Reverend K., you know I love ya'll and think you're da' bomb.

I've been just as interested in this site for its links to hackers as I have for the information itself - and if you aren't all getting a variety of firewall hits on this board, then you need to update your firewall.

Now, to my post. I realize that the board has a variety of personalities and nations, and I think this place is doing a hell of a lot better than the United Nations. Over the last 3 years, I've learned that one of the Mods is actually in my secret favorite country, Australia, and many of the posters are from there, too. Not to mention Canada, Britain, and other places that have that special dream of a special place for our future in mind - maybe even Star Trek.

I don't think you all are ever going to get me to apologize for my remarks towards some of the wayward posters over the last 3 months. But, if there were a way to come back as Cadet Anonymous with new username to start over anonymously, I certainly would. Once I joined the ranks of Rick Sternbach, Mike S., and countless others who use their real names here, then I put myself at a disadvantage, because whatever I said no longer came from a faceless nobody. It came from a nobody (perhaps) with a face.

BUT, even if I did come in anonymously, I think that I didn't need to talk so much about my own competition to Star Trek. Normally (and you'll have to just believe me on this) I only brought up that other series as a matter of contrast, often to say why I think B&B could have done better. First time I can remember bringing it up was when (before the show aired) someone leaked that Subspace Communications would only work while the ship was going faster than light. I had to come in with a long explanation why they had it all backwards.

So, if my shameless plugs offended anybody, please accept my apology. The point was truly to offer a baseline of reality on which to judge this show. I have quite a different vision of the future, and it anybody's right to open fire on me for any of my opinions. I don't think there's a snowball's chance in hell that we'll have interstellar flight and a peaceful Earth in the 22nd Century. I quite honestly believe I'm optimistic when I say World War III (already underway - the one to beware of small minds with big weapons), world war four (great Petroleum War) world war five (clash of the ideolog Titans China vs. World) is going to leave this place rather sad in the middle 22nd Century. That's just how I see it.

But, with 3 billion people by the 27th Century, we finally find a way to do it. That's my idea, and it's a little more pragmatic than the B&B/Roddenberry take on things.

So, all of the Star Trek fans that have disagreed with me on the when, how, where, who, and what's of things have every right to do so. I have thoroughly enjoyed all of those disagreements.

What I have not enjoyed is personal attacks aimed squarely at me. I deserved every criticism of my ideas or opinions. As a matter of fact, I got off pretty darned lucky in that I came to this board to discredit a show that the producers have made me now love through quality - and if I may say so myself, taking some of my good advice

I wish you all the very best and the guidelines have already been established and reiterated ... a member's opinion is always painted with a big red bullseye for you to fire at. But don't shoot the messenger. Please.

Bye now.

 

[Spy of P'Jem]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Someone mentioned frustration with the starting of multiple threads on the same subject.

I actually appreciate it and would encourage it. I do so because my experience in reading this board leads me to conclude that threads inevitably degenerate to flaming, or repetition, or the "me too" syndrome after 30 or so posts - sometimes sooner. I rarely read a thread after that many posts. Maybe I'm missing a gem or two, but not often.

Also, regarding the responding to one line of a book-long post...

I don't mind it at all. As time is usually an issue for me, I usually skip over those long posts, and their responses - not for the content, but for lack-of-time issues. And frankly, I find long, long posts dull. If this is an issue that continually bothers a poster of long posts, he/she might want to consider that brevity in posting technique might lead to less bothersome results.

 

[1001001]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by reno floyd:
I did not condone personal insults in my post, but that doesn't actually seem to be your beef. Your biggest beef seems to be that people dare to actually comment on the precious show. Gasp! What are we to do?

For you, I would prescribe valium, for the rest of us, carry on as normal.

This is exactly the kind of stuff that we don't need in this forum: hypocrisy, rudeness, and smug condescension. You claim you don't condone personal insults, and in the very next paragraph, you make one.

How does this comment help the situation? Of course, the answer is, "it doesn't". And I'm sure you know that. Why purposely flame someone in a thread where we're trying to resolve differences?

 

[wychwood]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

This is a great thread! It's good to have a chance to bring some of the issues out into the open for once. I have a few points to make, as well as agreeing with a lot of what it said above...

- Forum moderation

The moderators have a really tough job. Either they're too lenient, and people complain, or they're too hardline, and people complain. In fact, they often say both at once. It would be nice if *everyone* could acknowledge that the mods are trying their best, even if we don't agree with a given decision...

- Loaded Questions

What I really dislike is being forced onto the defensive because I like the show; people either going "oh, Ent is such a pile of rubbish, how can you possibly like it?" or asking loaded questions, like the thread a week or so back asking "honest" Ent fans to explain their problems with the show - the implication being that anyone who says they *don't* have problems with it is a liar.

And in the other direction, people who come out with nasty comments if anyone ever says anything against Ent. If someone like Stewey or Ptrope is posting in their usual reasoned fashion, making logical arguments about their issues with the show, it drives me crazy when someone comes in and starts complaining about "bashers".

- Attacks in pro-show discussions

The Tuckerites usually have at least one thread going where we talk about Trip and the show; all are welcome, even those who don't like the character, but not if they're just going to bitch. The threads are usually called things like "Tucker Rage", so it's not like you can't tell... You may not be a Tuckerite or a shipper yourself, and that's fine, that's your choice. But if we're "playing nice" in our corner of the sandpit, with our one Tuckerite thread, why stamp in and kick over our buckets?

tafkat's ideas about changing the polling thread and consolidating the "whither Enterprise?" discussions sound like excellent ones to me.

Ptrope said "Now, whether they love it or hate it is pretty much irrelevant if they have something to say and they say it with respect to their fellow members." - and that's perfect. I have *no* problem with people who don't like Ent; I enjoy discussing things with people of differing opinions. Just as long as they allow me the credit of assuming that I can think logically and judge reasonably *as well* as enjoy Enterprise.

- Posting style

There are certain posters who favour an extremely combatative style. When others are offended, they tend to blame this on "thin skin" or similar, but precious few of us come here to be offended. We want to discuss, not yell. As Miss Thang said somewhere up above, this drives people away. It is perfectly possible to debate without being so aggressive; most of us *do*, and I would find the forum much more pleasant if I didn't have to face that kind of style of post from anyone else.

Overall, I like the forum, I enjoy the discussions, and it's great talking to people from all over the Trek spectrum. But I can *really* do without the aggro. That's why I tend to stick in the Tuckerite threads; but I'd rather post more widely.

 

[reno floyd]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by 1001001:

Posted by reno floyd:
I did not condone personal insults in my post, but that doesn't actually seem to be your beef. Your biggest beef seems to be that people dare to actually comment on the precious show. Gasp! What are we to do?

For you, I would prescribe valium, for the rest of us, carry on as normal.

This is exactly the kind of stuff that we don't need in this forum: hypocrisy, rudeness, and smug condescension. You claim you don't condone personal insults, and in the very next paragraph, you make one.

How does this comment help the situation? Of course, the answer is, "it doesn't". And I'm sure you know that. Why purposely flame someone in a thread where we're trying to resolve differences?

And this is exactly the kind of Moderation we don't need in the Ent forum. Why don't you read the thread and pay attention to the insults that were directed at me beforehand? Oh that's right, they don't count.

 

[Spy of P'Jem]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by reno floyd:

Posted by 1001001:

Posted by reno floyd:
I did not condone personal insults in my post, but that doesn't actually seem to be your beef. Your biggest beef seems to be that people dare to actually comment on the precious show. Gasp! What are we to do?

For you, I would prescribe valium, for the rest of us, carry on as normal.

This is exactly the kind of stuff that we don't need in this forum: hypocrisy, rudeness, and smug condescension. You claim you don't condone personal insults, and in the very next paragraph, you make one.

How does this comment help the situation? Of course, the answer is, "it doesn't". And I'm sure you know that. Why purposely flame someone in a thread where we're trying to resolve differences?

And this is exactly the kind of Moderation we don't need in the Ent forum. Why don't you read the thread and pay attention to the insults that were directed at me beforehand? Oh that's right, they don't count.

This sort of exchange is exactly the sort to which I was referring a few posts ago whereby I mentioned that threads tend to degenerate. I use this only as an example, however it is prevelant. The attitude "you insulted me, therefore I'm justified... maybe even REQUIRED to insult you back" is unpleasant to read, thereby creating a nuisance as one has to make an effort to sift through it in order to skip it. It's also quite childish.

On the other hand, bickering like this won't end, it just won't. I suppose that one has a choice to ignore it, dismiss it, be amused by it, or fuel it.

 

[reno floyd]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

^^ I refer you to my first post about the moderating. The constant tendancy to ignore the instigator and reprimand the person defending themselves. Highlighted once again right here.

Mods have been in this thread. It can only be assumed they read what's written, why is the first attack ALWAYS ignored. It's piss poor.